Education & Morality

[Iniika]

Yesterday our English lecture on Clockwork Orange dissolved into a discussion over whether education really is the solution to society's problems. It was stated that education as the cure for crime was a generally left leaning notion, specifically from the 'intellectuals'. This was countered by the statement that educating a criminal simply makes an educated criminal, and that [state sponsored] education has little or no real effect on an individual's personal morals or tendancy toward criminal behavior, and that the latter was internal and almost biological.

We were unfortunately tightly constrained in our argument by a work of fiction and the actions of a fictitious character. That aside, what views do you have on the role of education on morality and by extention, an individual's future inclination toward violence.

Is 'badness' a or perhaps THE default human mindset that needs to be educated out of us? Can it be educated out of us? Or is 'badness' merely a product of one's enviroment and educating the population will bring them out of negative situations?

Left leaning myself I do tend to view education as a huge step in removing social negatives such as crime and violence and poverty, but as a humble English student, I lack the knowledge in the social and criminal fields to actually verify if it works definitively. Thoughts?

[Yootopia]

Yesterday our English lecture on Clockwork Orange dissolved into a discussion over whether education really is the solution to society's problems. It was stated that education as the cure for crime was a generally left leaning notion, specifically from the 'intellectuals'. This was countered by the statement that educating a criminal simply makes an educated criminal, and that [state sponsored] education has little or no real effect on an individual's personal morals or tendancy toward criminal behavior, and that the latter was internal and almost biological.?

Kick them in the face, there are plenty of external factors that feed into whether people turn to crime or not, like poverty or boredom. Education helps you get a job if nothing else, which is a solid way to avoid poverty and keeps you occupied for a couple of dozen hours a week at least.

[Dempublicents1]

I'm sure there are some people out there who, for some reason (whether innate or some failure in how they were raised) are going to be criminals no matter what. That said, I'm pretty sure those people are few and far between. There are far more people who turn to crime, particularly non-violent crimes, because they just don't see any other way out. Someone who already lives in poverty has little to lose by turning to crime and often sees that the only people in their social circle who seem to rise above poverty are doing so through criminal actions. With those types of crime, it has been shown time and time again that rehabilitation programs in prisons - those that help teach job skills and even sometimes help with job placement after a sentence is over - greatly reduce recidivism rates.

[Conserative Morality]

It's all about the environment, with few exceptions.

[North Avayu]

Education is one of the most important issues today, if not the most important. How's the old word: Give a starving man a fish and you fed him one day. teach him how to fish and he'll be able to feed himself. Today you'll need to tell him more than just how to fish, but the system is the same.
Nearly nobody will commit a crime without need. There is no need if you have a job and can live a good live for you and your loved ones. Education can give both to you.

[Araraukar]

How's the old word: Give a starving man a fish and you fed him one day. teach him how to fish and he'll be able to feed himself. Today you'll need to tell him more than just how to fish, but the system is the same.

The modernized version goes: Give a hungry man a fish and you've fed him for one day. Teach him how to wish and never again see him on weekends.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

perhaps there isn't a problem with other people maybe it's your own perception of the problem that's making it all the harder to eradicate.

Like that video of a kid i saw, she had a glass of milk and a cloth, she kept spilling milk with one hand, then cleaning that up with the other. In doing the cleaning she spilled more milk and thus had to clean again etc...

[Maurepas]

It's all about the environment, with few exceptions.

This^^^ Morals are social constructs, and its the only factor involved, with few exceptions....

[Blouman Empire]

Left leaning myself I do tend to view education as a huge step in removing social negatives such as crime and violence and poverty, but as a humble English student, I lack the knowledge in the social and criminal fields to actually verify if it works definitively. Thoughts?

I would say that it does but not in the same way as A clockwork Orange states.

An educaed population will usually lead to lower unemployment/ a stronger economy and a greater standard of living, this will lessen the need for people to commit crime and thus lower the crime rate.

[Tsa-la-gi Nation]

It's all about the environment, with few exceptions.

This^^^ Morals are social constructs, and its the only factor involved, with few exceptions....

I would agree with these comments. I would add that if we ever reached the pipe dream of some sort of utopia & society no longer produced common criminals, there would still be the "uncommon" criminal, or occasional mastermind that nature would still produce. Some people are born to make the world to burn.

[Goath]

Education is the only way people in horrible circumstances have any real chance of lifting themselves up out of said horrible circumstances. Not everyone who turns to a life of crime does so because they are inherently "bad."

On the same coin...some people are inherently "bad" and will do whatever they damned well please regardless of how much schoolin' they get.

I do operate under the basic premise that the more opportunities for intellectual advancement a person has, the more likely they are to be successful in life in the long run.

[Free-Beings]

How's the old word: Give a starving man a fish and you fed him one day. teach him how to fish and he'll be able to feed himself. Today you'll need to tell him more than just how to fish, but the system is the same.

The modernized version goes: Give a hungry man a fish and you've fed him for one day. Teach him how to wish and never again see him on weekends.

The new new one goes Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

How's the old word: Give a starving man a fish and you fed him one day. teach him how to fish and he'll be able to feed himself. Today you'll need to tell him more than just how to fish, but the system is the same.

The modernized version goes: Give a hungry man a fish and you've fed him for one day. Teach him how to wish and never again see him on weekends.

The new new one goes Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

i like that one, it's witty.

[Kashindahar]

It's a cliche at this point.

[Blouman Empire]

How's the old word: Give a starving man a fish and you fed him one day. teach him how to fish and he'll be able to feed himself. Today you'll need to tell him more than just how to fish, but the system is the same.

The modernized version goes: Give a hungry man a fish and you've fed him for one day. Teach him how to wish and never again see him on weekends.

The new new one goes Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set him on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

i like that one, it's witty.

So do I, and I've stolen it.

[NERVUN]

Try this one: Society doesn't mirror schools, schools mirror society. You cannot fix society by fixing schools, you have to fix society first.

[Mad hatters in jeans]

Try this one: Society doesn't mirror schools, schools mirror society. You cannot fix society by fixing schools, you have to fix society first.

true, which would involve evening out education ie, moving the 'good teachers' to the areas that need them more, and the 'less good' teachers to the less troubled areas, reducing the barriers between the schools themselves, actually having discussion and competition between schools beyond the grade tables.
when kids from school x that is run down can compete on an even level with school y that is well funded then things will look better as a whole.

of course that's only a small portion of things to do. moving the highly qualified professionals in their jobs to the areas that need them more, in the same way a veteran soldier would be preferred to going into a tough fight than a rookie.

[Greed and Death]

Try this one: Society doesn't mirror schools, schools mirror society. You cannot fix society by fixing schools, you have to fix society first.

true, which would involve evening out education ie, moving the 'good teachers' to the areas that need them more, and the 'less good' teachers to the less troubled areas, reducing the barriers between the schools themselves, actually having discussion and competition between schools beyond the grade tables.
when kids from school x that is run down can compete on an even level with school y that is well funded then things will look better as a whole.

of course that's only a small portion of things to do. moving the highly qualified professionals in their jobs to the areas that need them more, in the same way a veteran soldier would be preferred to going into a tough fight than a rookie.

And how do you get the good teachers to go there ?

I don't know about your state but Texas offers to pay off student loans of teachers who teach is disadvantaged schools in addition to 3,000 dollar a year hardship pay(from the state). Even money is not equalizing where people want to go. Could it be the neighborhoods these teachers have to live in to teach there, and the the students themselves drive teachers to teach in more affluent neighborhoods ?

[Kirav]

That would require that students actually care about what schools teach them. How long has anti-drug education been going on in American schools? For around twenty or thirty years. Are kids still doing drugs? Certainly. Why, they even use and market these drugs in school.

[Ryadn]

Is 'badness' a or perhaps THE default human mindset that needs to be educated out of us? Can it be educated out of us?

Not this.

Or is 'badness' merely a product of one's enviroment and educating the population will bring them out of negative situations?

More this.

As for educating criminals just creating "educated criminals", I've always found that to be a funny idea. Where are they being educated, criminal trade school? "Don't teach them about geology, they'll only be better at robbing you! They'll know which rocks to steal!"

[ChengISao]

Having extensive experience in an arena of criminals, I conclude that there are those that are truly biologically assigned to lean to the criminally and/or violent side. Then there are those that are a product of their environments, or lack of positive teachings. Those who, simply with reprogramming, would come to view the world in a different light. The problem is: 1. coming up with the proper biological tests to unmask those that it would be effective for, and 2. keeping the bleeding hearts from attempting to "save" those un-savable and thus wasting precious resources from those that will benefit from it.

[Risottia]

Yesterday our English lecture on Clockwork Orange dissolved into a discussion over whether education really is the solution to society's problems. It was stated that education as the cure for crime was a generally left leaning notion, specifically from the 'intellectuals'. This was countered by the statement that educating a criminal simply makes an educated criminal, and that [state sponsored] education has little or no real effect on an individual's personal morals or tendancy toward criminal behavior, and that the latter was internal and almost biological.?

Kick them in the face, there are plenty of external factors that feed into whether people turn to crime or not, like poverty or boredom. Education helps you get a job if nothing else, which is a solid way to avoid poverty and keeps you occupied for a couple of dozen hours a week at least.

one of the quickest threadwins ever.

[South Lorenya]

Education is quite helpful... if the people involved want to learn.

if they don't want to, it's useless -- the knowledge will enter the disgruntled student's mind, last just long enough to do the test, and will then fly off to alpha centauri.

[Der Teutoniker]

I'm seeing a lot of support here for the notion that increased education (and standard of living) would reduce crime greatly.

It's a good thing that white-collar crime in America is so completly rare as to be unheard of, I mean, a major case of white-collar crime, perpetrated by people who are already very wealthy, and well above the standard of living would seem to torpedo the simplicity of this argument.

Total irony, right? How many major white-collar crime cases have we had in the last 5-10 years? But you know, only desperate impoverished, uneducated people are capable of commiting crimes, while rich, educated people are almost entirely incapable. *facepalm*

[Sitspot]

How's the old word: Give a starving man a fish and you fed him one day. teach him how to fish and he'll be able to feed himself. Today you'll need to tell him more than just how to fish, but the system is the same.

The modernized version goes: Give a hungry man a fish and you've fed him for one day. Teach him how to fish and never again see him on weekends.

Give a hungry man a fish and you've fed him for one day. Teach him how to fish and pretty soon he'll be destroying entire ecosystems