The WWE Thread

[EnragedMaldivians]

Well, I never like theatre. Well, alrighty then.

And I've never liked cage fighting after Dana White took over the UFC and watered it down, but then again I don't drop into an MMA thread and spew my distaste for the current state of things all over the place, now do I?

And before you get on my case, I've tried both. They're similar only in terms of physicality needed, and even that's for different purposes.

Incidentally, would you believe Bill Goldberg of all people actually has a degree in psychology?Delicious, delicious irony right there.



Heh. I actually forgot about the manslaughter charge for his son (or that he had a son).

Actually I would believe that Goldberg has that degree. He did do the whole unstoppable monster thing, but the way he did it and the way he worked in the ring always seemed slightly more polished than your average "juggernaut" as it were. Not by much, but enough.
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Nah man, he just had incredibly short bouts which added to his mystique and didn't bring attention to his actually quite significant flaws.

If you want the epitome of projecting monster gimmick to perfection check out Glenn Jacob's work as Kane from 97 to 2001 ish.

[Northern Dominus]

And I've never liked cage fighting after Dana White took over the UFC and watered it down, but then again I don't drop into an MMA thread and spew my distaste for the current state of things all over the place, now do I?

And before you get on my case, I've tried both. They're similar only in terms of physicality needed, and even that's for different purposes.

Actually I would believe that Goldberg has that degree. He did do the whole unstoppable monster thing, but the way he did it and the way he worked in the ring always seemed slightly more polished than your average "juggernaut" as it were. Not by much, but enough.
.

Nah man, he just had incredibly short bouts which added to his mystique and didn't bring attention to his actually quite significant flaws.

If you want the epitome of projecting monster gimmick to perfection check out Glenn Jacob's work as Kane from 97 to 2001 ish.

Eh, in the beginning that was true, but at the peak of his career he actually could pull of a decent match or two, specifically with people who could do the majority of the heavy psychological lifting like Rock or Triple H.

Granted, you're right in the fact that Glen Jacobs AKA Kane does a much better job of it, but when pushed Goldberg could adapt somewhat. And he developed a better character than a lot of "monsters" of his era as well (Lesnar again).

[Samuraikoku]

Eh, in the beginning that was true, but at the peak of his career he actually could pull of a decent match or two, specifically with people who could do the majority of the heavy psychological lifting like Rock or Triple H.

Granted, you're right in the fact that Glen Jacobs AKA Kane does a much better job of it, but when pushed Goldberg could adapt somewhat. And he developed a better character than a lot of "monsters" of his era as well (Lesnar again).

Goldberg? ... Other than a police escort and a "WHO'S NEXT!?" catchphrase?

[Northern Dominus]

Eh, in the beginning that was true, but at the peak of his career he actually could pull of a decent match or two, specifically with people who could do the majority of the heavy psychological lifting like Rock or Triple H.

Granted, you're right in the fact that Glen Jacobs AKA Kane does a much better job of it, but when pushed Goldberg could adapt somewhat. And he developed a better character than a lot of "monsters" of his era as well (Lesnar again).

Goldberg? ... Other than a police escort and a "WHO'S NEXT!?" catchphrase?

It was also the attitude, and yes the hokey rasping voice, the gesticulations etc. At least he put the effort in. Aside from executing the moves and giving everyone a dopey look or a dopey smile, Lesnar never put an ounce of work into the psychology of a character, ever.

[Samuraikoku]

It was also the attitude, and yes the hokey rasping voice, the gesticulations etc. At least he put the effort in. Aside from executing the moves and giving everyone a dopey look or a dopey smile, Lesnar never put an ounce of work into the psychology of a character, ever.

I agree on Lesnar, but Goldberg is... well, fairly O.K. Not as great as he is thought to be.

[Northern Dominus]

It was also the attitude, and yes the hokey rasping voice, the gesticulations etc. At least he put the effort in. Aside from executing the moves and giving everyone a dopey look or a dopey smile, Lesnar never put an ounce of work into the psychology of a character, ever.

I agree on Lesnar, but Goldberg is... well, fairly O.K. Not as great as he is thought to be.

Oh definetly not one of wrestling's "greats", not by a long shot. Notable yes, maybe even an icon of his era to a point, but not trend setting or world beating like The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H, Sting, etc. etc.

[Samuraikoku]

Oh definetly not one of wrestling's "greats", not by a long shot. Notable yes, maybe even an icon of his era to a point, but not trend setting or world beating like The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H, Sting, etc. etc.

We can't deny that he did have an impact in WCW. Even at the cost of Bret Hart.

[Death Metal]

Oh definetly not one of wrestling's "greats", not by a long shot. Notable yes, maybe even an icon of his era to a point, but not trend setting or world beating like The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H, Sting, etc. etc.

We can't deny that he did have an impact in WCW. Even at the cost of Bret Hart.

To be fair, if Bret had been allowed to see a doctor and take time off, he might have never had to retire. Hell, Bret's lucky to have been alive for going as long as he did after DAT KICK.

[Northern Dominus]

Oh definetly not one of wrestling's "greats", not by a long shot. Notable yes, maybe even an icon of his era to a point, but not trend setting or world beating like The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H, Sting, etc. etc.

We can't deny that he did have an impact in WCW. Even at the cost of Bret Hart.

Yeah, not exactly a sterling moment in WCW. The Power Plant was wildly inconsistent to say the least. I mean yes, Goldberg was rough, but the same faicilty produced Diamond Dallas Page, one of the most consistently underrated wrestlers of all time. Yes, he had that ridiculous motivational speaker and stalking angle during the WWF run, but before that we had Paige coming out of the crowd, the matches against Benoit, Guerrero and other future greats, the entire feud with the flock, the Jersey Triad...

Now, to play devil's advocate, some of the injuries Hart sustained when facing Goldberg could have been avoided with a bit of input from him. That standing sidekick that everyone cites as the career ending botch, there was a miscommunication there but it looked like Bret slowed up pretty badly for some reason, which could very well have thrown that spot off and resulted in that kick being stiffer than it should have been. Plus the fact that Goldberg staggered off his one leg into the corner, something else that rarely happens, indicates something went pretty badly wrong that he wasn't prepared for.

[Samuraikoku]

We can't deny that he did have an impact in WCW. Even at the cost of Bret Hart.

Yeah, not exactly a sterling moment in WCW. The Power Plant was wildly inconsistent to say the least. I mean yes, Goldberg was rough, but the same faicilty produced Diamond Dallas Page, one of the most consistently underrated wrestlers of all time. Yes, he had that ridiculous motivational speaker and stalking angle during the WWF run, but before that we had Paige coming out of the crowd, the matches against Benoit, Guerrero and other future greats, the entire feud with the flock, the Jersey Triad...

Now, to play devil's advocate, some of the injuries Hart sustained when facing Goldberg could have been avoided with a bit of input from him. That standing sidekick that everyone cites as the career ending botch, there was a miscommunication there but it looked like Bret slowed up pretty badly for some reason, which could very well have thrown that spot off and resulted in that kick being stiffer than it should have been. Plus the fact that Goldberg staggered off his one leg into the corner, something else that rarely happens, indicates something went pretty badly wrong that he wasn't prepared for.

I'll have to re-read Bret's book, but he mentions something of the sort. What I do recall him saying clearly is that he doesn't hold it against Goldberg.

[Northern Dominus]

Yeah, not exactly a sterling moment in WCW. The Power Plant was wildly inconsistent to say the least. I mean yes, Goldberg was rough, but the same faicilty produced Diamond Dallas Page, one of the most consistently underrated wrestlers of all time. Yes, he had that ridiculous motivational speaker and stalking angle during the WWF run, but before that we had Paige coming out of the crowd, the matches against Benoit, Guerrero and other future greats, the entire feud with the flock, the Jersey Triad...

Now, to play devil's advocate, some of the injuries Hart sustained when facing Goldberg could have been avoided with a bit of input from him. That standing sidekick that everyone cites as the career ending botch, there was a miscommunication there but it looked like Bret slowed up pretty badly for some reason, which could very well have thrown that spot off and resulted in that kick being stiffer than it should have been. Plus the fact that Goldberg staggered off his one leg into the corner, something else that rarely happens, indicates something went pretty badly wrong that he wasn't prepared for.

I'll have to re-read Bret's book, but he mentions something of the sort. What I do recall him saying clearly is that he doesn't hold it against Goldberg.

As I understand it Bret actually regretted that the guy who did it was one who was as genuinely nice as Goldberg was/is.

Again, I've seen the footage, or at least what's available, and it's hard to really tell. The spot LOOKED really close to begin with so maybe that was the screwup and nobody thought to abort and try again.

[TaQud]

The Smackdown before Wrestlemania has to be the worst smackdown of the year each year.

[Maurepas]

I agree on Lesnar, but Goldberg is... well, fairly O.K. Not as great as he is thought to be.

Oh definetly not one of wrestling's "greats", not by a long shot. Notable yes, maybe even an icon of his era to a point, but not trend setting or world beating like The Rock, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Triple H, Sting, etc. etc.

I disagree, Goldberg was definitely up there in terms of talent and charisma, etc. The problem is, WCW and Hulk Hogan made sure to use him like shit throughout his entire career after getting the title in Atlanta.

His run in WWE with Trips was one of my favorite times to be a fan. It's not his fault that Bret was working injured, WCW would fire people who took time off, ask Davey Boy Smith, if you could,

Even Bret himself says so.

[Qazox]

The Smackdown before Wrestlemania has to be the worst smackdown of the year each year.

Yep.

[Qazox]

Unless they toss in a U.S. Title defense for Cesaro or a battle royal, the card is set and my picks are:

PRESHOW: The Miz def. Wade Barrett by submission to win the Intercontinental Title.

8-person Intergender Tag Match: Team Rhodes Scholars and the Bella Twins def. Tons of Funk and the Funkadyctls by pinfall when Brie Bella pins Naomi after a twin magic switcheroo.

Fahn-dahn-go def. Chris Jericho by pinfall.

WWE Tag Team Championship: Dolph Ziggler and Big-E Langston def. Team Hell No by pinfall after Langston hits his finisher on Daniel Bryan while ref is distracted by AJ Lee.

Mark Henry def. Ryback by countout.

The Shield def. Big Show, Sheamus and Randy Orton by pinfall after Orton RKOs Sheamus.

Undertaker def. CM Punk by pinfall after a failed attempt by Punk to get the Undertaker DQ'd.

World Heavyweight Title: Alberto del Rio def. Jack Swagger by submission. After match, Swagger and Colter attcker del Rio, allowing Dolph Ziggler to come down and cash in his MITB briefcase successfully.

Triple HHH def. Brock Lesnar by pinfall after a Shawn Michaels superkick to Lesnar.

WWE Championship: The Rock def. John Cena by pinfall. After the match, Cena (finally, and the Rock means finally) turns heel and attacks the Rock, setting up the rematch at Extreme Rules

[Lorkhan]

There needs to be another company that is actually capable of competing with WWE. This will motivate all parties to produce a better product. TNA isn't quite up to the challenge I think.

A new WCW might do the trick.

Does wrestling even have enough of a following anymore to support the funding for another federation? It sucks because it's kind of a one trick pony. If someone were to come out they'd need to diversify things, because if all one does is compete against the WWE at their own schtick then where is the incentive to watch it? Back when TNA was loved it provided a freshness to the sport, they had the 8 sided ring, they had the focus on fast paced matches, and then they turned and brought in all the brawlers and started to focus on the storyboards like the matches weren't enough.

[Death Metal]

WWE Championship: The Rock def. John Cena by pinfall. After the match, Cena (finally, and the Rock means finally) turns heel and attacks the Rock, setting up the rematch at Extreme Rules

[Northern Dominus]

WWE Championship: The Rock def. John Cena by pinfall. After the match, Cena (finally, and the Rock means finally) turns heel and attacks the Rock, setting up the rematch at Extreme Rules

What? Cena's long overdue for a heel turn. Heel turns are good for career longevity.

[EnragedMaldivians]

What? Cena's long overdue for a heel turn. Heel turns are good for career longevity.

How are they going to manage a Cena heel turn convincingly? It seems they want to turn him heel but just don't know how. Short of interfering in an Undertaker match and helping someone end the streak I can't imagine how they'd manage.

[San Leggera]

What? Cena's long overdue for a heel turn. Heel turns are good for career longevity.

How are they going to manage a Cena heel turn convincingly? It seems they want to turn him heel but just don't know how. Short of interfering in an Undertaker match and helping someone end the streak I can't imagine how they'd manage.

Get Russo on the job, and have Cena take a bump to the head that looks like it would have paralysed him, and have him return a week later as a heel in an Eric Young-style turn.

[Northern Dominus]

What? Cena's long overdue for a heel turn. Heel turns are good for career longevity.

How are they going to manage a Cena heel turn convincingly? It seems they want to turn him heel but just don't know how. Short of interfering in an Undertaker match and helping someone end the streak I can't imagine how they'd manage.

Well... he did get booed pretty badly during the feud vs Punk, and during any program he has with the Undertaker. That could be the platform, something about the "Chain Gang Soldiers" being fair-weather fans.

[EnragedMaldivians]

How are they going to manage a Cena heel turn convincingly? It seems they want to turn him heel but just don't know how. Short of interfering in an Undertaker match and helping someone end the streak I can't imagine how they'd manage.

Well... he did get booed pretty badly during the feud vs Punk, and during any program he has with the Undertaker. That could be the platform, something about the "Chain Gang Soldiers" being fair-weather fans.

Yeah, but that's because he's ineffective as a face, not because he's a genuine heel. How to make him a genuine heel seems to be the core of the confusion. And if they turn him heel and people start cheering him - well, that again leaves creative in an awkward position. And creative just isn't very, well, creative.

[San Leggera]

Well... he did get booed pretty badly during the feud vs Punk, and during any program he has with the Undertaker. That could be the platform, something about the "Chain Gang Soldiers" being fair-weather fans.

Yeah, but that's because he's ineffective as a face, not because he's a genuine heel. How to make him a genuine heel seems to be the core of the confusion. And if they turn him heel and people start cheering him - well, that again leaves creative in an awkward position. And creative just isn't very, well, creative.

Of course he'll be cheered when/if he turns heel; because a heel turn for him has been years overdue.

[Northern Dominus]

Well... he did get booed pretty badly during the feud vs Punk, and during any program he has with the Undertaker. That could be the platform, something about the "Chain Gang Soldiers" being fair-weather fans.

Yeah, but that's because he's ineffective as a face, not because he's a genuine heel. How to make him a genuine heel seems to be the core of the confusion. And if they turn him heel and people start cheering him - well, that again leaves creative in an awkward position. And creative just isn't very, well, creative.

Not anymore, anyway.

Look how it worked out with The Rock. At some point they just told him to be himself and dial it up to 11, and that worked out prety well I'd say. Maybe in Cena's case he could use that as a platform to say "I've gotten all I need from you, from here on out I'm doing this for myself" or something.

Wrestling doesn't require a solid basis of logic like prime time dramas, just enough to suspend disbelief and good enough work to cover the rest.

[EnragedMaldivians]

Yeah, but that's because he's ineffective as a face, not because he's a genuine heel. How to make him a genuine heel seems to be the core of the confusion. And if they turn him heel and people start cheering him - well, that again leaves creative in an awkward position. And creative just isn't very, well, creative.

Of course he'll be cheered when/if he turns heel; because a heel turn for him has been years overdue.

Exactly. Which is a problem for creative.