
by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:04 am

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:08 am
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:09 am
DrakoBlaria wrote:As an Orthodox Christian,I do not

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:11 am
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:14 am

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:16 am
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:DrakoBlaria wrote:
His authority is not but he is a consindered a prophet
I see. Well, I suppose the issue still stands somewhat then. How exactly is one to know Paul to have been a 'true' follower of Jesus as opposed to any of a number of other such individuals with wildly different theologies but similar such claims, when Jesus himself, in the gospels, never seems to give any sort of indication of which, if any, of them is correct?
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Atest » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:17 am

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:19 am
DrakoBlaria wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
I see. Well, I suppose the issue still stands somewhat then. How exactly is one to know Paul to have been a 'true' follower of Jesus as opposed to any of a number of other such individuals with wildly different theologies but similar such claims, when Jesus himself, in the gospels, never seems to give any sort of indication of which, if any, of them is correct?
Thing mate is,that Jesus=God.Everything else,including the church,is man made.This is why from area to area (nation to nation usually) christians have other traditions (who are usualy ancient pagan ones).For me the only ture word is the one of God.Now,I have not studied the writting of Paulos,all I know is the Pope thing and how the Pope betrayed us

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:19 am
Atest wrote:I find it odd that people make such a large leap of faith in assuming that Paul is even just a prophet. How do you know he is a prophet? Because he said so? Because the Bible tells you so? How do you know what the Bible says is true, or that it was even written by the people you think it was written by? It is truly troublesome, since by that characterization, I could become a prophet if I simply say I am.
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:21 am
Atest wrote:I find it odd that people make such a large leap of faith in assuming that Paul is even just a prophet. How do you know he is a prophet? Because he said so? Because the Bible tells you so? How do you know what the Bible says is true, or that it was even written by the people you think it was written by? It is truly troublesome, since by that characterization, I could become a prophet if I simply say I am.

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:22 am
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:Atest wrote:I find it odd that people make such a large leap of faith in assuming that Paul is even just a prophet. How do you know he is a prophet? Because he said so? Because the Bible tells you so? How do you know what the Bible says is true, or that it was even written by the people you think it was written by? It is truly troublesome, since by that characterization, I could become a prophet if I simply say I am.
Basically, yeah.
I mean, as a matter of definition, Christians take Jesus to be divine as an article of faith. Which, fine, that's definitional. And I can see fairly clearly how you get from that to the writings of his own affirmed disciples. Just not Paul, who seems, as far as I can see, to be a guy who came around later on, claiming, with no collaborative evidence, to have been 'chosen' by Jesus, even though his doctrines were somewhat different. Just seems kind of dubious, even in its own terms.
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:23 am
DrakoBlaria wrote:Atest wrote:I find it odd that people make such a large leap of faith in assuming that Paul is even just a prophet. How do you know he is a prophet? Because he said so? Because the Bible tells you so? How do you know what the Bible says is true, or that it was even written by the people you think it was written by? It is truly troublesome, since by that characterization, I could become a prophet if I simply say I am.
He is not a prophet he is an Apostole.He spread christianity,he is called the Apostle of Nations (or Baptizer of Nations)

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:25 am
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:DrakoBlaria wrote:
He is not a prophet he is an Apostole.He spread christianity,he is called the Apostle of Nations (or Baptizer of Nations)
Well, fine. Semantics over titles aside though, how do you know that Paul wasn't a liar/false prophet as you presumably would view most of the other such individuals in his time period who claimed to have had visions from Jesus/started their own theological movements/etc. ? Because it strikes me that it seems he has no more 'evidence' than any of them that Jesus actually 'chose' him.
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Atest » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:25 am
DrakoBlaria wrote:Atest wrote:I find it odd that people make such a large leap of faith in assuming that Paul is even just a prophet. How do you know he is a prophet? Because he said so? Because the Bible tells you so? How do you know what the Bible says is true, or that it was even written by the people you think it was written by? It is truly troublesome, since by that characterization, I could become a prophet if I simply say I am.
He is not a prophet he is an Apostole.He spread christianity,he is called the Apostle of Nations (or Baptizer of Nations)

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:28 am
DrakoBlaria wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
Well, fine. Semantics over titles aside though, how do you know that Paul wasn't a liar/false prophet as you presumably would view most of the other such individuals in his time period who claimed to have had visions from Jesus/started their own theological movements/etc. ? Because it strikes me that it seems he has no more 'evidence' than any of them that Jesus actually 'chose' him.
Well sorry to burst your bubble but apart from the 12 students jesus did not choose anyone else.All the Saints were declared so by the chruch and there are plenty of saints who were not even declared (which is why we have a day to celebrated them,it is called the 'Day of Holly All')

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:30 am
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:DrakoBlaria wrote:
Well sorry to burst your bubble but apart from the 12 students jesus did not choose anyone else.All the Saints were declared so by the chruch and there are plenty of saints who were not even declared (which is why we have a day to celebrated them,it is called the 'Day of Holly All')
That's kind of exactly the point. Why do you put the Pauline books (books written by basically just some guy who claimed to have had a vision from Jesus, with no actual evidence of such) at equal canonical weight with the Gospels/books by the disciples (who were directly chosen by Jesus)? Isn't that a bit a dubious? Why not include Mohammed / Joseph Smith / whoever else as well?
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:32 am
DrakoBlaria wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
That's kind of exactly the point. Why do you put the Pauline books (books written by basically just some guy who claimed to have had a vision from Jesus, with no actual evidence of such) at equal canonical weight with the Gospels/books by the disciples (who were directly chosen by Jesus)? Isn't that a bit a dubious? Why not include Mohammed / Joseph Smith / whoever else as well?
Cause the Catholics needed to support and strengthen their claim?

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:34 am
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:DrakoBlaria wrote:
Cause the Catholics needed to support and strengthen their claim?
As far as I'm aware, Catholics accept the authority of Paul/his works as well. As do nigh just about any modern Christian sects. I'm asking why though, as I don't particularly see any justification in jumping from Jesus to Paul. Seems... quite arbitrary.
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Ashmoria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:34 am

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:36 am
Ashmoria wrote:welp...
1) his writings make up a huge chunk of the new testament
2) he founded and supported many many christian communities and advised them in the day to day living as a christian
3) the other post-jesus apostles/disciples took him seriously, found that his dramatic conversion qualified, and accepted his teachings.
4) most christian denominations follow his teachings so its hard be in a mainline church and not be taught paul's doctrines.
what more do you want?
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:36 am
DrakoBlaria wrote:Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:
As far as I'm aware, Catholics accept the authority of Paul/his works as well. As do nigh just about any modern Christian sects. I'm asking why though, as I don't particularly see any justification in jumping from Jesus to Paul. Seems... quite arbitrary.
I told you apart from the POPE title (which is preety much where the catholic faith is based) he is consindered to be the man who spread christianity to the globe.They have even found people in remote areas in asia who claim to have been visited by him

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:36 am
Dokuritsu Nippon wrote:DrakoBlaria wrote:
I told you apart from the POPE title (which is preety much where the catholic faith is based) he is consindered to be the man who spread christianity to the globe.They have even found people in remote areas in asia who claim to have been visited by him
I'm not even necessarily disputing that (or at least, certainly for sake of this argument, I shan't in this thread). I'm just asking why you take him at his word and not any of the others at the same time period who made the same claims. I don't see any real causal link between "following Jesus" and "following Paul". What am I missing here?
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.

by Dokuritsu Nippon » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:39 am
Ashmoria wrote:welp...
1) his writings make up a huge chunk of the new testament
2) he founded and supported many many christian communities and advised them in the day to day living as a christian
3) the other post-jesus apostles/disciples took him seriously, found that his dramatic conversion qualified, and accepted his teachings.
4) most christian denominations follow his teachings so its hard be in a mainline church and not be taught paul's doctrines.
what more do you want?

by DrakoBlaria » Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:40 am
Kleomentia wrote:Almighty Hellenic Overlord of Slavya, he who is the son of Zeus and the father of Greekishness.
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