Rape prevention

[Rereumrari]

Yeah, but you didn't say it was a primary motivator. Control and dominance is a secondary motive for them to satisfy. Their lack of sex is the first. If men didn't have sex drives, they wouldnt rape.

No. Control and dominance are most certainly primary motivators. Many rapists rape without any sexual drive, they do it be ause they love to dominate people. Sex may be a primary motivator for some rapists, but not all, and the rest certainly arent a minority.

You can't carry that out without a sexual drive to start with. You wouldn't have the bodily means to do so. The fact that he did get "excited" and finished shows that sex was what he was after. If there was no sexual gratification to get from it, there would be no reason for rape. They get their kicks from domination, but that is only to enhance thier sexual experience. It's sick, but it's how it is.

[Senften]

I fail to see how guns would prevent date rape, generally the most common kind. I couldn't put a bullet through some guy's brain if he had put something in my drink, first. It's not just a matter of "don't accept drinks from strangers," either. Sometimes those strangers are people you know, or thought you could trust. 85 to 80% of reported rape cases are date and acquaintance rape. 90% of college rape survivors knew their rapist. (http://ub-counseling.buffalo.edu/violenceoverview.shtml)
I like the idea of date rape straws and cups, since they change color if something has been added to your drink. In terms of strangers overpowering the victim physically, mace is the best option. Many people don't know how to use guns, and mace is easier to hide, carry around, and use on an attacker. Just my humble opinion on it, though. At the end of the day, yes, everyone has to be cautious. Not to the point of victim blaming, of course. It's just the difference between taking the main road or a dark alley, and I'm pretty sure both men and women wouldn't want to be caught alone in an unfamiliar place without any friendly people around.

[Skogland (Ancient)]

Learn self-defense, carry mace. Put on some weight and stop being attractive. Don't wear revealing clothes, otherwise someone is going to get horny and be up in your butt. It's not really preventable, it's as natural as murder. Read "A Natural History of Rape: Biological Bases of Sexual Coercion". You'd know this if you've been in prison.

Concerning man-on-man booty action, you need to see this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxThsRCyoOM

Attractiveness isn't objective. Even after all of that, I know of a few people who'd specifically want to fuck that. Consent or not.

Hell, my dad knowingly married and had children with an overweight woman who was nowhere near attractive. (to me anyways.)

That's true, attractiveness isn't objective. I've been with a couple of chubby women myself, but only when I was getting increasingly desperate.

[Condunum]

No. Control and dominance are most certainly primary motivators. Many rapists rape without any sexual drive, they do it be ause they love to dominate people. Sex may be a primary motivator for some rapists, but not all, and the rest certainly arent a minority.

You can't carry that out without a sexual drive to start with. You wouldn't have the bodily means to do so. The fact that he did get "excited" and finished shows that sex was what he was after. If there was no sexual gratification to get from it, there would be no reason for rape. They get their kicks from domination, but that is only to enhance thier sexual experience. It's sick, but it's how it is.

Men have the full ability to have sec without a sexual drive. We are physically aroused, but we don't have to be mentally. You need to do a bit more research on this, considering that existence of sexual arousal does not make it automatically about sexual pleasure. They are doing it for dominance and, often, simply to hurt people. The rapist realizes that the best way to assert his dominance over a woman is to take away any feeling of safety she has, and rape does that exponentially better than simple assault.

Your position is actually a very dangerous one. To insinuate that to have sex men must desire it is to say that men who are victims if penetrative rape with a woman wanted it because they became aroused.

[Ashmoria]

Hi, NSG.

A short while ago we had a rape thread, which was labelled as a "safe space". In that thread, I suggested that women (let's be realistic, it is almost always women who are victimized) should carry and learn how to use weapons in order to prevent rapes. I was very clear that I was not attempting to place the blame on victims, and was trying to be supportive. It was apparent that some people were still offended, however, and and some people even suggested that I was aiding rapists by promoting the carry of and training with weapons among women. I cannot with any intellectual honesty apologize for what I said, because I still sand by it. I want to emphasize that my heart goes out to the victims of abuse.

So, here is a different thread with a different purpose. I want to ask you, NSG: do you believe that rape is preventable? If so, what can women do to prevent rape? If not, why not?

Here is a video with some statistics which support the idea that women should carry and learn how to use weapons.

I really, really don't want this to turn into a flame war. Please keep it civil. I want this to be a good thread with some good, constructive discussion, and I don't want any victims who may be reading this to feel that it is in any way their fault.

i dunno it just seems unlikely to me that a young woman will take a gun to a frat party and keep it handy just in case something gets out of hand. i think that if she thought there was that much danger in a situation she wouldnt put herself in that situation.

it seems unlikely that she would be willing to take a gun to her big family holidy get-together just in case some male relative should unexpectedly grab her and try to rape her.

i mean... to be a rape preventative a woman would have to carry her gun absolutely all the time and have it at the ready all the time. it doesnt seem practical.

not that women SHOULDNT be ready to defend themselves. that is an issue for every woman to answer for herself, what kind of defense she might be comfortable with or good at.

rape prevention is obviously difficult or we would have it well in hand by now. we need to start with educating people about rape, what rape IS, how NO means NO, how it is inappropriate to push a partner to do things that s/he isnt willing to do.

i would also suggest that parents stop putting such a premium on their little girls being NICE. that its OK for their children to refuse to kiss relatives that they dont want to kiss. that its OK to make a scene when they feel that they are in danger.

to teach their sons that sometimes people in authority over them will do things that are wrong and that it is OK to tell their parents about it. that they will be believed. that having it "feel good" doesnt mean that they werent taken advantage of, that even if they like the idea of sex, that doesnt mean they have to have sex with anyone who wants to foist it on them.

to teach everyone to trust their gut feelings. that if a person seems creepy or a situation seems wrong, its OK to make a fuss and get out of it.

and that if it happens anyway, its not their fault. being pretty, flirty, desirable, alone with someone, or whatever else the excuse might be that they have the right to take it to the police. they have the right to defend themselves and a right to justice when a crime has been committed on them.

[The Rich Port]

Attractiveness isn't objective. Even after all of that, I know of a few people who'd specifically want to fuck that. Consent or not.

Hell, my dad knowingly married and had children with an overweight woman who was nowhere near attractive. (to me anyways.)

That's true, attractiveness isn't objective. I've been with a couple of chubby women myself, but only when I was getting increasingly desperate.

Desperate, my ass.

Those be prime cuts o' meat, them fat bottomed girls.

[Condunum]

That's true, attractiveness isn't objective. I've been with a couple of chubby women myself, but only when I was getting increasingly desperate.

Desperate, my ass.

Those be prime cuts o' meat, them fat bottomed girls.

They do indeed make the rocking world go 'round

[Genivaria]

Or generate a state-controlled brothel system, with free sex for all who crave for it.

I've always heard that rape is about control, not merely sex.

[Nailed to the Perch]

Yes, it is preventable. There's not that much more to say. You know the drill, stay in groups, don't walk home on your own yada yada yada etc etc.

But apparently you're victim blaming by implying that there is any way that rape could have been prevented, the same way you'd be victim blaming if a career criminal had his home invaded and his skull ventilated by some other criminals.

I kind of adore the fact that, in order to demonstrate that you are not victim-blaming, you compared rape victims to "career criminals."

Here in the real world, advice about carrying guns and such is fucking useless to the vast majority of rape victims - and worse than useless to all of them, because it feeds into the idiotic cultural narrative that if you didn't fight back "hard enough" you weren't legitimately raped, and continues to place the onus for preventing crime on the victims, something we do with exactly zero other crimes to even a fraction of the extent we do with rape. No one responds to stories of someone's car being stolen with, "Well why did you drive such a nice car? You should have made your car look more modest! And why didn't you hide a bomb under the driver's seat, so anyone who got in without you defusing it would explode? And why did you drive it after 5 PM? And why did you drive through neighborhoods that contain people who like cars? And why didn't you leave a chaperone with the car at all times? Don't you know that car thieves can't control themselves around cars? Stealing cars is a basic urge and it's your duty to help car thieves not give into their uncontrollable need to steal cars!" We accept that car thieves are not forces of nature and that they make the conscious decision to steal a car, and when someone's car gets stolen, we don't lecture them on all the ways they could theoretically have stopped their car from being stolen if they were simply willing to circumscribe their entire life to make their car less stealable.

So you want to prevent rape? Stop whinging on about how rape victims - who are most likely to be raped in their own home by someone they know - should be on the alert 24/7, carry a gun at all times, never be alone or drink or talk to men or wear pretty clothes or whatever the latest fucking stupid tip is. Start talking about how rape isn't a "miscommunication" or a "mistake." Start talking about how there's no such thing as being so horny you just have to rape someone. Start talking about how fucking someone while they're asleep or passed out or incapacitated isn't "a grey area," it's fucking rape. Start calling people on their bullshit when they say that "sometimes no means yes" or "sometimes it's hard to tell if someone is consenting." If you really want to prevent rape, stop making excuses for rapists by making it someone else's fault that they committed rape, and start making sure everyone you know is aware that rape isn't just scary strangers jumping out of bushes onto poor innocent virgins, but something committed by ordinary people against other ordinary people, and no less heinous for it.

[Nailed to the Perch]

No. Control and dominance are most certainly primary motivators. Many rapists rape without any sexual drive, they do it be ause they love to dominate people. Sex may be a primary motivator for some rapists, but not all, and the rest certainly arent a minority.

You can't carry that out without a sexual drive to start with. You wouldn't have the bodily means to do so.

People can be, and have been, raped with fingers, hands, dildos, metal bars, baseball bats, and machetes, not to mention a wide variety of other non-penis objects. Please think before you speak.

[Fluffy Coyotes]

You can't carry that out without a sexual drive to start with. You wouldn't have the bodily means to do so.

People can be, and have been, raped with fingers, hands, dildos, metal bars, baseball bats, and machetes, not to mention a wide variety of other non-penis objects. Please think before you speak.

There's dispute about whether that even counts as rape in particular or more along the lines of sexual assault when it doesn't involve a penis. If it does count, then it makes the "all men are potential rapists" talking point obsolete, since women can rape by the means you listed as well.

[The Emerald Dawn]

People can be, and have been, raped with fingers, hands, dildos, metal bars, baseball bats, and machetes, not to mention a wide variety of other non-penis objects. Please think before you speak.

There's dispute about whether that even counts as rape in particular or more along the lines of sexual assault when it doesn't involve a penis. If it does count, then it makes the "all men are potential rapists" talking point obsolete, since women can rape by the means you listed as well.

There are idiots disputing that, sure.

I'm not sure I'd listen to idiots.

[Maskrosor]

Hi, NSG.

A short while ago we had a rape thread, which was labelled as a "safe space". In that thread, I suggested that women (let's be realistic, it is almost always women who are victimized) should carry and learn how to use weapons in order to prevent rapes. I was very clear that I was not attempting to place the blame on victims, and was trying to be supportive. It was apparent that some people were still offended, however, and and some people even suggested that I was aiding rapists by promoting the carry of and training with weapons among women. I cannot with any intellectual honesty apologize for what I said, because I still sand by it. I want to emphasize that my heart goes out to the victims of abuse.

So, here is a different thread with a different purpose. I want to ask you, NSG: do you believe that rape is preventable? If so, what can women do to prevent rape? If not, why not?

Here is a video with some statistics which support the idea that women should carry and learn how to use weapons.

I really, really don't want this to turn into a flame war. Please keep it civil. I want this to be a good thread with some good, constructive discussion, and I don't want any victims who may be reading this to feel that it is in any way their fault.

Really?
Should we ask what the bullied should do to prevent being bullied? How should gays behave to not be bashed?

Or, historically, what should the jews have done to prevent the Holocaust? What did the tutsis do to upset the hutus so?

Your question is blaming the victim, period.
And I have a hard time understanding how you, as a feminist, can't see that.

The only way to prevent rape is to change men's behaviour. Period (again).

[The Emerald Dawn]

Hi, NSG.

A short while ago we had a rape thread, which was labelled as a "safe space". In that thread, I suggested that women (let's be realistic, it is almost always women who are victimized) should carry and learn how to use weapons in order to prevent rapes. I was very clear that I was not attempting to place the blame on victims, and was trying to be supportive. It was apparent that some people were still offended, however, and and some people even suggested that I was aiding rapists by promoting the carry of and training with weapons among women. I cannot with any intellectual honesty apologize for what I said, because I still sand by it. I want to emphasize that my heart goes out to the victims of abuse.

So, here is a different thread with a different purpose. I want to ask you, NSG: do you believe that rape is preventable? If so, what can women do to prevent rape? If not, why not?

Here is a video with some statistics which support the idea that women should carry and learn how to use weapons.

I really, really don't want this to turn into a flame war. Please keep it civil. I want this to be a good thread with some good, constructive discussion, and I don't want any victims who may be reading this to feel that it is in any way their fault.

Really?
Should we ask what the bullied should do to prevent being bullied? How should gays behave to not be bashed?

Or, historically, what should the jews have done to prevent the Holocaust? What did the tutsis do to upset the hutus so?

Your question is blaming the victim, period.
And I have a hard time understanding how you, as a feminist, can't see that.

The only way to prevent rape is to change men's behaviour. Period (again).

Nope. See, women rape men too. Men rape men. Women rape women. You want to prevent rape, you need to educate everyone. Rape is not strictly male on anyone else.

[Ovisterra]

The only way to prevent rape is to change men's behaviour.

Your post was going so well until this sentence.

1. You're heavily implying that rape is the fault of all men. As a man, I'm deeply insulted.
2. You're also outright stating that women cannot rape men. This is untrue. I know most rapes are committed by men, but to say that all are is objectively untrue and a horrible insult to the victims.

[Forsakia]

-snip-

But when you say that women should learn to carry and use weapons, you are, like it or not, saying that some people who have been raped might not have been raped if they had carried weapons. That's victim blaming.

That extends the accusation of victim blaming to ridiculous extents.

Some people who have been raped might not have been raped if they carried weapons is simple truth (it's true to a limited extent given the common characteristics of rape, but it's true in some cases).

Getting a better lock for my bicycle would make it harder to steal, this is truth. It doesn't mean it's my fault it got stolen from an average lock, but it would be less likely to have happened if I'd had a great one.

It is possible to suggest ways to reduce rape without victim blaming. On an obvious level, advising people not to leave their drink unattended in a night club. They aren't doing anything blameworthy by leaving their drink unattended, but it increases the risk they're exposed to.

Pictures about "Advice to reduce rape: don't rape" are nice for internet debates and hopefully have a positive effect, but using them to shut down potential ways to make people safer from rape is skewing priorities way off.

If I have a daughter then I probably would encourage her to take a martial arts class (and certainly not leave her drink unattended). Parents who don't aren't worse parents, and it's not her fault if she is raped but to an extent it would reduce the risk, which is something.

(N.B. I am somewhat uncomfortable with the OP's ambiguous use of the word should as to if that pushes towards any responsility towards victims, which I'd oppose. But to say "suggesting people wouldn't get raped if they did X" is not enough for victim blaming).

[Fluffy Coyotes]

There's dispute about whether that even counts as rape in particular or more along the lines of sexual assault when it doesn't involve a penis. If it does count, then it makes the "all men are potential rapists" talking point obsolete, since women can rape by the means you listed as well.

There are idiots disputing that, sure.

I'm not sure I'd listen to idiots.

How do you know they're "idiots" unless you hear them out?

The only way to prevent rape is to change men's behaviour.

Your post was going so well until this sentence.

1. You're heavily implying that rape is the fault of all men. As a man, I'm deeply insulted.
2. You're also outright stating that women cannot rape men. This is untrue. I know most rapes are committed by men, but to say that all are is objectively untrue and a horrible insult to the victims.

While I sense misandry in the post you're replying to as well, isn't forced sex with women counted as sexual assault instead of rape? Defining "rape" is a very ambiguous subject, and what to count as it varies independently from whether or not someone agrees that victimization of someone took place.

[The Emerald Dawn]

There are idiots disputing that, sure.

I'm not sure I'd listen to idiots.

How do you know they're "idiots" unless you hear them out?

Because anyone who is trying to split hairs by saying "This man shoved a baseball bat up this other man's anal cavity" = not rape, "This man shoved a baseball bat up this woman's vaginal cavity" = rape, is an idiot.

Calling it anything but rape is pointless pedantry, it serves no purpose but to remove the culpability for violating someone by using invasive sexual means. "Well, it wasn't RAPE. It was just 'Sexual Assault'." Oh that makes it all better then. I'm sure glad we hashed that out.

[Evraim]

Or generate a state-controlled brothel system, with free sex for all who crave for it.

There's no such thing as free sex.

In any case, this wouldn't eliminate rape.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Or generate a state-controlled brothel system, with free sex for all who crave for it.

There's no such thing as free sex.

...My wife doesn't charge, neither does our girlfriend.

It's quite free, honest.

[Ovisterra]

But when you say that women should learn to carry and use weapons, you are, like it or not, saying that some people who have been raped might not have been raped if they had carried weapons. That's victim blaming.

That extends the accusation of victim blaming to ridiculous extents.

Some people who have been raped might not have been raped if they carried weapons is simple truth (it's true to a limited extent given the common characteristics of rape, but it's true in some cases).

I'm not denying that. I never did.

Getting a better lock for my bicycle would make it harder to steal, this is truth. It doesn't mean it's my fault it got stolen from an average lock, but it would be less likely to have happened if I'd had a great one.

Indeed. But someone saying it's your responsibility to get one is blaming you.

It is possible to suggest ways to reduce rape without victim blaming.

Yes, but suggesting all women carry weapons is not one of them.

On an obvious level, advising people not to leave their drink unattended in a night club. They aren't doing anything blameworthy by leaving their drink unattended, but it increases the risk they're exposed to.

Advising people to do so is one thing. Saying it's their responsibility is another.

Pictures about "Advice to reduce rape: don't rape" are nice for internet debates and hopefully have a positive effect, but using them to shut down potential ways to make people safer from rape is skewing priorities way off.

Using it to shut down victim blaming is, however, good.

If I have a daughter then I probably would encourage her to take a martial arts class (and certainly not leave her drink unattended). Parents who don't aren't worse parents, and it's not her fault if she is raped but to an extent it would reduce the risk, which is something.

(N.B. I am somewhat uncomfortable with the OP's ambiguous use of the word should as to if that pushes towards any responsility towards victims, which I'd oppose. But to say "suggesting people wouldn't get raped if they did X" is not enough for victim blaming).

My main problem is with how the OP goes about it. I mean, advising someone to take precautions is usually OK. Saying they have to, they should or "it's their responsibility" is, as I said, another thing entirely.

[Maskrosor]

The only way to prevent rape is to change men's behaviour.

Your post was going so well until this sentence.

1. You're heavily implying that rape is the fault of all men. As a man, I'm deeply insulted.
2. You're also outright stating that women cannot rape men. This is untrue. I know most rapes are committed by men, but to say that all are is objectively untrue and a horrible insult to the victims.

1. Never said it, didn't mean it.
2. No, I didn't outright state that women cannot rape men. I didn't say all rapes are committed by men.

I know of many men who works to stop rape and sexual harassment, who are comfortable in their masculinity and are good role models for boys and younger men (and women as well).
I know that between 5 and 10 percent of sexual child abuse is committed by women. And that women can (and do) rape and abuse men and other women.

But I guess it's more important to discuss the splinter ad nauseum instead of the beam?

[Evraim]

...My wife doesn't charge, neither does our girlfriend.

It's quite free, honest.

May I ask if you have any emotional attachment to either of your significant others? Do you spend time with them? Are there any expectations placed upon you?

[Aahmerica]

Smith & Wessen model 500. That'll stop a rape.

[Fluffy Coyotes]

How do you know they're "idiots" unless you hear them out?

Because anyone who is trying to split hairs by saying "This man shoved a baseball bat up this other man's anal cavity" = not rape, "This man shoved a baseball bat up this woman's vaginal cavity" = rape, is an idiot.

Calling it anything but rape is pointless pedantry, it serves no purpose but to remove the culpability for violating someone by using invasive sexual means. "Well, it wasn't RAPE. It was just 'Sexual Assault'." Oh that makes it all better then. I'm sure glad we hashed that out.

But they didn't claim that makes it all better. It's a straw-man to interpret it that way. And as far as I'm aware, sexual assault is still a felony anyway.

Your post was going so well until this sentence.

1. You're heavily implying that rape is the fault of all men. As a man, I'm deeply insulted.
2. You're also outright stating that women cannot rape men. This is untrue. I know most rapes are committed by men, but to say that all are is objectively untrue and a horrible insult to the victims.

1. Never said it, didn't mean it.
2. No, I didn't outright state that women cannot rape men. I didn't say all rapes are committed by men.

I know of many men who works to stop rape and sexual harassment, who are comfortable in their masculinity and are good role models for boys and younger men (and women as well).
I know that between 5 and 10 percent of sexual child abuse is committed by women. And that women can (and do) rape and abuse men and other women.

But I guess it's more important to discuss the splinter ad nauseum instead of the beam?

There's got to be a reason you chose your wording, whether you realize what that reason is or not. Let's keep discussing that until we get to what the reason is.

Smith & Wessen model 5000. That'll stop a rape.

Unless the rapist has one too. Or the victim is too impaired and/or panicked to recall how to use it.