Rape prevention

[Maskrosor]

Preventing rape?

You teach people about what consent is.

You tell them to always ask before initiating ANY sexual activity. To not initiate sexual activity if the person's unconscious, seriously drunk, or otherwise unable to give consent. That "no" means no, but silence does not equate to "yes". Teach them that it's only okay if that person says "yes, I want it" on their own free, conscious will - that a "yes" answer when he or she is under coercion, blackmail, bribery, and the like is not consent but rape. That it's attractive, even more so, when you KNOW that the other person wants it.

You teach them that sex without consent is not okay and never will be.

You ask your friends who are bragging about banging that hot chick the night before whether she said "yes". You show disapproval, not respect, if your friend admits to having sex with someone who was unable to give consent.

You teach them to not make it seem like it's the victim's fault.

You don't shame someone or call them a liar, a slut, a whore, a pussy, that that person was asking for it, if someone says "I was raped, I was sexually assaulted". That one's first words to hearing that something like that happened to someone is "I'm sorry, what can I do to help?", not "You shouldn't have worn that, you should have fought back harder, you should have kept an eye on your drink, you shouldn't have gone out with that person, ...".

You teach them that rape is not something to hide under the bed, under the covers, but to be brought out to the open, in order to discuss, to open communication, and to teach people that victims will not be shamed for being sexually assaulted or raped.

You teach rapists that what they're doing is NOT okay, and that you will not tolerate it in any way, shape, or form.

You can't prevent all rape, but at least make people aware that it's not okay. Teach them that consent is required and what it means, and one will go far.

And if it happens, you don't shame them or tell the victims that they should have done x, but accept that it happened to them and ask them what you can do to help them now.

[/thread]

[/thread] indeed. Kudos.

[Tsuntion]

<snip>

[/thread]

It would be [/thread] except I want to make another post expressing endorsement of and impressment at your post.

[The Merchant Republics]

i just find it hard to imagine that a woman would shoot her boyfriend or her boyfriends roommate. especially if her gun was across the room in her purse. so few women keep their guns in their hands at all times.

What gets me is that he admits that ambushes happen and work, yet somehow still thinks guns would help.

No one is really reading what I'm writing are they?

Guns would help, in situations where they can help. Tautological, but a fact, and there are a significant number of rapes that could be eliminated by arming the potential victims.

Guns would not help in situations where guns would not help, there are ambushes, abductions, familial rapes, date rapes, and drug or narcotic-induced rapes. In many of these cases a gun will not alone be able to prevent the crime, these are cases where women have been lulled into security, in these cases, we must find other solutions.

It is true that most rapes occur indoors and are perpetrated by known persons, but it should be made clear that these situations do not render a gun useless, just less effective. Which is why it cannot be our only solution.


I advocate that women should be encouraged to carry weapons, because it offers a level of protection that does not exist if they are unarmed, I do not advocate that the only thing we ought to do is give women guns, because then "gun magic ensues" and no one will be raped anymore. I do not think it reflects well on our society that women are raped at all, or that women should need security in the form of a weapon, but I absolutely believe they should be able to do so.

I advocate women should be able to own and carry weapons, because I advocate men should be able to own and carry weapons, because I believe it will create a safer society, because I believe that there will be less fear in that society, because I believe there will be more respect and less danger. That is why. I do not believe guns magically reduce crime or prevent rape, I do not believe every criminal deserves a bullet to the chest, I do not even believe that people should take justice into their own hands, I merely support the ability to defend yourself, your property and your well-being from dangerous persons, and the best way to do that, demonstrably is with a gun.

[Kanery]

Hi, NSG.

A short while ago we had a rape thread, which was labelled as a "safe space". In that thread, I suggested that women (let's be realistic, it is almost always women who are victimized) should carry and learn how to use weapons in order to prevent rapes. I was very clear that I was not attempting to place the blame on victims, and was trying to be supportive. It was apparent that some people were still offended, however, and and some people even suggested that I was aiding rapists by promoting the carry of and training with weapons among women. I cannot with any intellectual honesty apologize for what I said, because I still sand by it. I want to emphasize that my heart goes out to the victims of abuse.

So, here is a different thread with a different purpose. I want to ask you, NSG: do you believe that rape is preventable? If so, what can women do to prevent rape? If not, why not?

Here is a video with some statistics which support the idea that women should carry and learn how to use weapons.

I really, really don't want this to turn into a flame war. Please keep it civil. I want this to be a good thread with some good, constructive discussion, and I don't want any victims who may be reading this to feel that it is in any way their fault.

I don't think its necessary to carry a gun even though that's a choice but I'm totally fine with somebody owning a taser to defend themselves while not necessarily killing I think that would be safest and most sensible.

[Fluffy Coyotes]

The problem is primarily the perpetrator, but whether or not this constitutes "victim blaming" depends on how the advice is framed.

No. As soon as you say "the problem is primarily the perpetrator," it necessarily follows that the problem is secondarily not the perpetrator, and when we're talking about two people, a perpetrator and a victim, that means you are blaming the victim.

Like how you can suggest someone stay inside during a thunderstorm, even though that might not always be enough.

Wow. Yes, that is definitely a great analogy to indicate that you are holding rapists accountable for their actions rather than blaming their victims, when you compare them to literal unstoppable forces of nature.

Human behaviour is indirectly a force of nature since it is the result of millions of years of evolution.

And the blame is in a very different sense for the victim than the rapist. Like others said, it's like pointing out that there are things the Jews could have done to avoid being victimized; Michael Badnarik uses that as a cautionary tale in standing up to the government.

[The Merchant Republics]

Yes.

I'm agreeing with you.

Well, not necessarily. Depending on the circumstances, like in the home the presence of a gun can still give her an edge, even if it isn't on her person at the time.

Still, I agree that a great many rapes will not be prevented by women having greater ownership of firearms, for these we must seek more complex solutions, we have to change how the law deals with men who victimize women, and how our society views them, we have to eliminate the notion that drunkeness, revealing clothing or anything else is an invitation to sex, only an invitation to sex should be treated as an invitation to sex, that being in a relationship does not confer you any right to sex with your partner and that you have no right to force your will on any other person. Anything less and we will still have rape.

ok but having a gun is not a no-danger solution. having a gun in the house means that someone can get shot accidentally, that the kids can find the gun and shoot it. that your partner can shoot you in anger, that you can try to defend yourself against rape and end up shot to death.

getting a gun is not good advice for many many women. those who might benefit from a gun already have one.

Not true, for instance. I live in Canada. Where women don't have the ability to benefit from a gun, even if they might derive some.

I agree, not everyone need own a gun, for some people guns are unnecessary, for others they do represent a danger (the depressed and suicidal) I would not recommend having guns laid openly in a house with young children.

I'm not suggesting that guns be handed out at every street-corner, only that we remove the stigma, and a stigma does exist against women owning firearms as well as, in the case of my own country allow them to be carried and owned, and with that we will encourage those who might otherwise be victimized to be armed.

Nothing more.

[Individuality-ness]

It would be [/thread] except I want to make another post expressing endorsement of and impressment at your post.

[/thread] indeed. Kudos.

Haha, thanks.

Also, should add: having a weapon doesn't mean that rape (or any other violent crime) is going to magically go away. It's easy to tell people "you should have a weapon at all times" and think that's the end of the story. It's not. And to make it seem like it is the end-all-to-all-end-alls-ever is basically pushing the issue into a tiny little box, putting a bow on it, and say "good enough", even when the box is overflowing and the seams look like they're about to break.

Having a weapon doesn't make rape go away. It doesn't stop people from attempting rape, it only helps you if it's in progress at best, which, to be honest, sucks. And okay, the best scenario doesn't usually happen, things do go wrong, and whatnot.

Is it not better to tell them that it's not okay to attempt sex without consent then to say "oh, you can prevent it when it happens with a gun/knife/martial arts skills, so whoop-de-doo, problem solved!"?

Sure, have a weapon if it makes you feel better. Learn self-defense. But know that it's not the end-all-solution.

[The Emerald Dawn]

It would be [/thread] except I want to make another post expressing endorsement of and impressment at your post.

[/thread] indeed. Kudos.

Haha, thanks.

Also, should add: having a weapon doesn't mean that rape (or any other violent crime) is going to magically go away. It's easy to tell people "you should have a weapon at all times" and think that's the end of the story. It's not. And to make it seem like it is the end-all-to-all-end-alls-ever is basically pushing the issue into a tiny little box, putting a bow on it, and say "good enough", even when the box is overflowing and the seams look like they're about to break.

Having a weapon doesn't make rape go away. It doesn't stop people from attempting rape, it only helps you if it's in progress at best, which, to be honest, sucks. And okay, the best scenario doesn't usually happen, things do go wrong, and whatnot.

Is it not better to tell them that it's not okay to attempt sex without consent then to say "oh, you can prevent it when it happens with a gun/knife/martial arts skills, so whoop-de-doo, problem solved!"?

Sure, have a weapon if it makes you feel better. Learn self-defense. But know that it's not the end-all-solution.

Especially since many rape survivors tend to not want to hurt the person raping them. Something about still loving them.

[The Merchant Republics]

I'm not happy that you took this quote out of context. In context, this statement was a part of much larger one indicating how it is absolutely understandable that they would be less inclined to do so.

The entire notion that implying a woman should be able to defend herself from rape means anything else than a woman should be able to defend herself from rape, is frankly horrifyingly stupid.

So how about we stop making ugly presumptions of each other, okay?

I mean, gorram it, what kind of insane troll logic is this, "it's so disgusting that we need to shoot people to defend ourselves" therefore we shouldn't let people shoot other people to defend themselves? For goodness sakes, if you need to defend yourself you ought to do it with the most effective form of self-defence.

If you're saying: "Isn't it awful that sometimes all that stands between a woman and being raped is the barrel of a gun" yes, that's disgusting, I'd quite like it if no one were ever to be raped again. I'd like it if no one ever fired at gun at any other person, nor raised a fist, a knife or club to their fellow man. Wouldn't that be lovely?

However, this insane abuse of logic continually casts people who are advocating women have the means to defend themselves, as imply rape should be a game of "who grabs the pistol first?" is not only intellectually vapid, unfair and wilfully ignorant, it's just plain rude.

I'm sickened by it, I'm disgusted by it. I want to help women, I want to make sure rape doesn't happen ever again, do you? If you did, you should damn well support giving women the ability to defend themselves in addition to addressing the societal causes.

No, you miss the point. By suggesting that women should so this, that they should protect themselves from rape, this takes the heat off of everyone else doing things to combat the rape culture. I mean, why bother when women have guns and can just shoot the offender. It's not even worth talking about it. It goes without saying that if a woman has a gun, she can kill a rapist. Well done, are women too stupid that they can't figure this out for themselves? Well thanks for telling them. By talking about it like you are, you're implying that they have some responsibility to do so if they don't want to be raped. Lets not talk about how women can defend themselves if they have the tools because that's fucking obvious. Rather, lets talk about ways that rape can be reduced outside of forcing every day people to take the law, and other people's lives, into their own hands.

Telling women to buy a gun is not helpful.

Edit: Note this isn't aimed at you specifically, I apologise if you aren't arguing that women should defend themselves etc.

I'm sorry. I flew off the handle at you and I shouldn't have, it's been happening a lot recently that I've done that to people, must be something wrong on my end.

Rather I am arguing that women should be able to defend themselves, perhaps it's worth reminding people that I am living in a country where the use of a gun in self-defence is not legal, (or rather it falls into such a small window of legality that it cannot be relied upon). In Canada, a woman cannot own a handgun, nor carry it to defend herself (note: she can have a handgun for sport or private collection, but it has to be locked, unloaded and can only be transported with a permit), she may never be attacked by a man in a dark alley, but if she ever is, in this country she does not have the ability to legally carry a gun to protect herself.

I do not think that the solution to sexual violence is gluing a gun to the hand of every man, woman and child, but I do think enabling those who feel the need and have the responsibility to protect themselves with firearms is something that will protect women.

It is not the only solution, it is not an all-encompassing solution, but it is one of piece of the solution to preventing rape.

[Individuality-ness]

Haha, thanks.

Also, should add: having a weapon doesn't mean that rape (or any other violent crime) is going to magically go away. It's easy to tell people "you should have a weapon at all times" and think that's the end of the story. It's not. And to make it seem like it is the end-all-to-all-end-alls-ever is basically pushing the issue into a tiny little box, putting a bow on it, and say "good enough", even when the box is overflowing and the seams look like they're about to break.

Having a weapon doesn't make rape go away. It doesn't stop people from attempting rape, it only helps you if it's in progress at best, which, to be honest, sucks. And okay, the best scenario doesn't usually happen, things do go wrong, and whatnot.

Is it not better to tell them that it's not okay to attempt sex without consent then to say "oh, you can prevent it when it happens with a gun/knife/martial arts skills, so whoop-de-doo, problem solved!"?

Sure, have a weapon if it makes you feel better. Learn self-defense. But know that it's not the end-all-solution.

Especially since many rape survivors tend to not want to hurt the person raping them. Something about still loving them.

Well, no surprise, since most rapes are committed by people that the victim knows, not random strangers somewhere in a dark alley or whatever. Unfortunately, the latter is what people imagine when they think "rape", not the former.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Especially since many rape survivors tend to not want to hurt the person raping them. Something about still loving them.

Well, no surprise, since most rapes are committed by people that the victim knows, not random strangers somewhere in a dark alley or whatever. Unfortunately, the latter is what people imagine when they think "rape", not the former.

Somethingsomething Social Conditioning Somethingsomething.

[Individuality-ness]

Well, no surprise, since most rapes are committed by people that the victim knows, not random strangers somewhere in a dark alley or whatever. Unfortunately, the latter is what people imagine when they think "rape", not the former.

Somethingsomething Social Conditioning Somethingsomething.

The disconnect is so amazing, but saddening at the same time. And the fact that we're not that open about it sucks, because people don't know that. And when people are left in the dark, that makes the problem worse, not better.

[Blouman Empire]

*enters thread*

Nope I'm not getting involved in this again

*leaves thread*

[Ceannairceach]

Why not prevent rapists, instead? That seems like a far more worthwhile goal.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Somethingsomething Social Conditioning Somethingsomething.

The disconnect is so amazing, but saddening at the same time. And the fact that we're not that open about it sucks, because people don't know that. And when people are left in the dark, that makes the problem worse, not better.

Talk? ABOUT SEX?

What kind of godless WHORE are you?

I rescind my offer, you can not be part of our quantum experiments.

[Birolika]

As others have said before the best way to prevent rape is to stop certain people feeling that others are objects for them to use.

[Individuality-ness]

The disconnect is so amazing, but saddening at the same time. And the fact that we're not that open about it sucks, because people don't know that. And when people are left in the dark, that makes the problem worse, not better.

Talk? ABOUT SEX?

What kind of godless WHORE are you?

I rescind my offer, you can not be part of our quantum experiments.

Oooh, sex, so scary! It's the boogeyman of our modern age! *waves hands*

[The Emerald Dawn]

Talk? ABOUT SEX?

What kind of godless WHORE are you?

I rescind my offer, you can not be part of our quantum experiments.

Oooh, sex, so scary! It's the boogeyman of our modern age! *waves hands*

Sex is only scary if you're dealing with someone who hasn't been paying attention, or doesn't have any experience.

If you ever have to use the words "You're not actually inside" or "Dear, I'm not sure what you're humping, but my penis is by your knee", it could be scary.

[Nailed to the Perch]

No. As soon as you say "the problem is primarily the perpetrator," it necessarily follows that the problem is secondarily not the perpetrator, and when we're talking about two people, a perpetrator and a victim, that means you are blaming the victim.

Except the two don't exist in a vacuum; there's always society. And society quite often is to blame, for encouraging various anti-social behaviors; failing to address causes of criminal behavior such as poverty, marginalization, and the stigmatization of seeking therapy for mental and emotional problems; insufficiently protecting the victim before the crime and not supporting them after it. Not assigning all blame to the perpetrator does not require blaming the victim, even though sadly it often happens that way.

Oh, I agree with you absolutely about the critical role society plays here - but in the context of "telling the victim how she could have prevented being raped still means that the perpetrator is primarily responsible, so it's not blaming the victim," I think my point still stands.

[Individuality-ness]

Oooh, sex, so scary! It's the boogeyman of our modern age! *waves hands*

Sex is only scary if you're dealing with someone who hasn't been paying attention, or doesn't have any experience.

If you ever have to use the words "You're not actually inside" or "Dear, I'm not sure what you're humping, but my penis is by your knee", it could be scary.

Which is why it's confusing when people are happy to talk about sex... but only with innuendos and whatnot. Heaven forbid if you're talking about what homosexuality is in a sex ed class, let alone how to use a condom (*gasp!*), that there's other options of birth control out there, or that people, including... women (*GASP!*) like having sex and that it's not something to be ashamed of.

It's a lot worse when you're female - then people tell you off for being too "open" or something. >.>;

[The Emerald Dawn]

Sex is only scary if you're dealing with someone who hasn't been paying attention, or doesn't have any experience.

If you ever have to use the words "You're not actually inside" or "Dear, I'm not sure what you're humping, but my penis is by your knee", it could be scary.

Which is why it's confusing when people are happy to talk about sex... but only with innuendos and whatnot. Heaven forbid if you're talking about what homosexuality is in a sex ed class, let alone how to use a condom (*gasp!*), that there's other options of birth control out there, or that people, including... women (*GASP!*) like having sex and that it's not something to be ashamed of.

It's a lot worse when you're female - then people tell you off for being too "open" or something. >.>;

Well, if the legs spread too far, it can reduce the friction for you-

OH, you mean if you're being a slut.

[Individuality-ness]

Which is why it's confusing when people are happy to talk about sex... but only with innuendos and whatnot. Heaven forbid if you're talking about what homosexuality is in a sex ed class, let alone how to use a condom (*gasp!*), that there's other options of birth control out there, or that people, including... women (*GASP!*) like having sex and that it's not something to be ashamed of.

It's a lot worse when you're female - then people tell you off for being too "open" or something. >.>;

Well, if the legs spread too far, it can reduce the friction for you-

OH, you mean if you're being a slut.

The double standard, amirite? Although I wouldn't mind spreading my legs out, it's a good stretch for my inner thighs. *nod*

[Saint Jade IV]

You know what needs to happen to prevent rape? Boys and girls need to be educated about consent. Boys and girls need to understand that there is no such thing as "leading someone on", that you do not have a right to sex, that you should not be expected to have sex or expect to receive it. And you need to start it young, before they have sex. We need to remove terms like "frigid" "cocktease" "slut" from our collective vocabulary and discussion about sex.

Giving women a gun does nothing to prevent the crime from happening in the first place. And I would suggest that giving women a gun, would perhaps increase, not decrease the emotional impact of attempted or completed rape. I imagine that women who freeze, women who are raped when they don't have their gun readily accessible, or as is highly likely, their own gun is turned on them will blame and shame themselves even more than they already do. And I cannot imagine any woman not expeeriencing severe emotional upheaval if she were to take a life, especially if it were in error.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Well, if the legs spread too far, it can reduce the friction for you-

OH, you mean if you're being a slut.

The double standard, amirite? Although I wouldn't mind spreading my legs out, it's a good stretch for my inner thighs. *nod*

I wouldn't mind spreading my legs out. It'd mean I have them.

The problem I had with double standards was everyone telling me that I wasn't having enough sex in the military. Like I was somehow LESS of a man because I didn't fuck every woman who flirted with me.

[Individuality-ness]

The double standard, amirite? Although I wouldn't mind spreading my legs out, it's a good stretch for my inner thighs. *nod*

I wouldn't mind spreading my legs out. It'd mean I have them.

The problem I had with double standards was everyone telling me that I wasn't having enough sex in the military. Like I was somehow LESS of a man because I didn't fuck every woman who flirted with me.

It sucks on both ends. Women are being taught that wanting sex is slutty and wrong. Men are being taught that you must desire (if not actually) bang every single hot girl you see, and that deviating from either of these things is bad. And it's stupid.