How will history judge Obama?

[Vetalia]

Right now things are beginning to look like its heading up.. After a rather few shitty years, the unemployment rate is going back down and the stock market is finally back at its 2007 pace.

I think the economy in his successor's first term will be the deciding factor; if the economy has recovered robustly and is in strong shape, it'll reflect highly positively on his ability to manage the aftermath of the financial crisis and recession. It'll also substantially diminish any of the issues regarding the near-term debt and deficits, although I think the real kicker there would be a long-term solution to the costs of government programs. I would not be surprised if we saw an end to the cap on Social Security wages as part of an overall bargain to raise the retirement age and other measures to limit costs as a component of such a reform.

[Flaxxony-Setram]

The NDAA that allows your hero to indefinitely detain and assassinate American citizens without due process is not fictional.

I'm quite serious when I say this:
What did you want him to do with regards to it? He didn't decide to include it, nor could he remove it if he wanted to.

He could, um, veto it

[Lesbia]

Puerto Rico doesn't want to be a 51st state. You realize that, right? As a territory, their citizens enjoy the life benefits of American citizenship but few of the drawbacks.
For example:
Free travel within the US without a passport.
Protection from invasion and harm.
Ready business partners.
Only the territory pays a tax, out of their GDP (or GNP?) to America; the people do not owe a dime of their money, in taxes, to the US. Suffice to say, they prefer it as our tax rate/bracket system would shunt a lot of Puerto Ricans into poverty, compared to what they had previously.

Guam is the same way, as the rest of America's territories.

As for gay marriage... let's just say my NationState isn't amending shit is unlikely to do much.

Puerto Rico just voted with the options being (a) statehood (b) independence (c) remain a territory and statehood won the majority.

[Death Metal]

Puerto Rico doesn't want to be a 51st state. You realize that, right?

You do realize that PR doesn't have to be a state if it doesn't want to be anyway, right? California and Utah were in similar boats. Fuck, the Utah Mormons willingly abandoned polygamy to join the US.

If statehood vs territoryhood was as good as you posit, we'd have a hell of a lot less than 50 states right now.

[Death Metal]

I'm quite serious when I say this:
What did you want him to do with regards to it? He didn't decide to include it, nor could he remove it if he wanted to.

He could, um, veto it

Veto-proof majority. It was getting passed no matter what.

[Wikkiwallana]

I'm quite serious when I say this:
What did you want him to do with regards to it? He didn't decide to include it, nor could he remove it if he wanted to.

He could, um, veto it

Which would have been completely symbolic, burned a lot of political capital, and opened him up to a million "Obama hates the troops" attacks.

[Death Metal]

He could, um, veto it

Which would have been completely symbolic, burned a lot of political capital, and opened him up to a million "Obama hates the troops" attacks.

Heads up in advance, Wikk, we've already had a Paulist poke in here. Well, he said just "Ron Paul" at the end without finishing his sentence, so he could have been saying "Ron Paul is a mediocre ob/gyn" but I doubt it.

[Kintuckistan]

May sound redundant but it's too early to say.

This could easily change if America goes to war with Iran... which would suck. A lot.

[Death Metal]

May sound redundant but it's too early to say. This could easily change if America goes to war with Iran... which would suck. A lot.

Very true, but I believe that would apply no matter who was in office.

[Arkinesia]

He will be judged as being not actually being all that different from Bush.

Only by hipsters who enjoy remaining willfully ignorant to political fact.

The Political Compass ranks 2012 Obama as a 6R, 6A on their scale. 2004 Bush was a 6R, 5A.

So, by this quantitative measure we have, you are incorrect.

[Arkinesia]

Puerto Rico doesn't want to be a 51st state. You realize that, right?

So that referendum that happened on November 6, 2012, that was just an Illuminati lizardman plot? That never happened?

Fuck's sake.

[Death Metal]

Only by hipsters who enjoy remaining willfully ignorant to political fact.

The Political Compass ranks 2012 Obama as a 6R, 6A on their scale. 2004 Bush was a 6R, 5A.

So, by this quantitative measure we have, you are incorrect.

Oh please. The Political Compass is as quantitative a measure as much as a "Which Pokemon are you?" quiz.

[Flaxxony-Setram]

Maybe it's because I'm a bitter white person clinging to my guns. And a fascist brownshirt nazi racist KKK scumbag.

No, I'm actually a libertarian.

In my experience, there's a pretty large overlap between those two groups.

Except for, you know, the multicultural pro-drug pro-gay anti-discrimination part

[Kintuckistan]

Because I assume that most of us are debating this from an American perspective; how about the perspective of the rest of the world... primarily developing nations?

[Quebec and Atlantic Canada]

Because I assume that most of us are debating this from an American perspective; how about the perspective of the rest of the world... primarily developing nations?

What does this have to do with anything?

[Kintuckistan]

Cuz 'Merica iz senter of world.

[Agymnum]

He's not the greatest, but he sure as hell isn't the worst.

If anything History will be kind to him considering the fact that he came in the wake of Bush, probably the most incompetent and embarrassing president of all time.

[The New Sea Territory]

Either the First True American Dictator, or an epic failure.

Comrade Hussein or Leftist Flop? I can't tell the difference.

[Agymnum]

Either the First True American Dictator, or an epic failure.

Comrade Hussein or Leftist Flop? I can't tell the difference.

I believe the first true American dictator was probably Lincoln, but I mean look how he turned out. We all love him (myself included).

[Nightkill the Emperor]

Because I assume that most of us are debating this from an American perspective; how about the perspective of the rest of the world... primarily developing nations?

I'm Indian living in South Africa.

He will be in the history books. We won't focus on him too much.

[Wisconsin9]

Either the First True American Dictator, or an epic failure.

Comrade Hussein or Leftist Flop? I can't tell the difference.

My brain cells just committed mass suicide.

[The New Sea Territory]

He's not the greatest, but he sure as hell isn't the worst.

If anything History will be kind to him considering the fact that he came in the wake of Bush, probably the most incompetent and embarrassing president of all time.

Nope. Plenty of worse ones.

And what do liberals say that Bush did SO WRONG?

Comrade Hussein has the same foreign policy Bush did. Both were authoritarian garbage.

[Quebec and Atlantic Canada]

Cuz 'Merica iz senter of world.

Oh for the love of shit.

[The New Sea Territory]

Either the First True American Dictator, or an epic failure.

Comrade Hussein or Leftist Flop? I can't tell the difference.

I believe the first true American dictator was probably Lincoln, but I mean look how he turned out. We all love him (myself included).

Don't forget FDR. And Bush, to an extent.

[The New Sea Territory]

Either the First True American Dictator, or an epic failure.

Comrade Hussein or Leftist Flop? I can't tell the difference.

My brain cells just committed mass suicide.

"Mission Accomplished"