Taxes are theft

[Bobs Land of Amazingness]

I think that even though people don't seem to realize it, taxes are required. Without taxes, for starters, there would be no government, or at least it would be a very weak one. Also to consider is the fact that there are people out there that actually have no way to earn a living. I see all people as equal, even if they were born into a family that was living on the street. They need to be supported, and that takes money. Another thing to consider: national dept. Of corse there is not dept in this game, but in the real world I still think that that is an interesting problem that probably shouldn't be ignored.

[Sibirsky]

OK. What?

Or, rather, to put it simply, what means are there to pay for fundamentally necessary services for those who cannot pay for those services themselves that would not be as equally coercive as taxation?

charity lol!

Americans contributed more to charity in 2006, than the US government spent on welfare. It's not like, it is impossible.

[Mavorpen]

Sure. It's called living here, voting, and using any public service.

What, do you seriously think contracts must be in standard written form?

Living here? Voting? What if I don't vote?

So, being born means you agree?

And that is why, it is not a valid contract.

No, refusing to reject the contract means you agree.

[Sibirsky]

Yes. What is your point?

You are aware that competition for the masses, would reduce costs, right?

And it would still leave out a good bit of people. Or do you think businesses would continue to lower costs past the point where they make a decent profit?

What? No, I do not think that businesses would suddenly engage in charity.

Speaking of charity... Charity can come in many forms. And besides low cost services, there would be free services.

[Sibirsky]

Yes. What is your point?

You are aware that competition for the masses, would reduce costs, right?

But there would still be a cost present, and when you reduce costs you have to reduce quality, because there is a point where you can go no lower without making a profit, which, myself being in private school for the elementary-middle school period of my life know that even with financial aid they aren't cheap

Bullshit.

Look at any electronic device and you understand that costs can drop, while quality improves at the same time.

[Mavorpen]

And it would still leave out a good bit of people. Or do you think businesses would continue to lower costs past the point where they make a decent profit?

What? No, I do not think that businesses would suddenly engage in charity.

Speaking of charity... Charity can come in many forms. And besides low cost services, there would be free services.

Let me know when you have any empirical evidence showing this would be anywhere near enough to support the poor.

[Sibirsky]

A contract is an AGREEMENT. With clearly defined terms. And can only be changed when all parties agree to the changes.

Show me where agreed to this social contract. Show me where I agree to the numerous changes to it.

If only social contracts were that simple.

Your argument only works between businesses, people and lawyers.

What are you going to do if I "X" out your changes because I don't like them?

What, with another person or business? Negotiate...

[Mavorpen]

But there would still be a cost present, and when you reduce costs you have to reduce quality, because there is a point where you can go no lower without making a profit, which, myself being in private school for the elementary-middle school period of my life know that even with financial aid they aren't cheap

Bullshit.

Look at any electronic device and you understand that costs can drop, while quality improves at the same time.

You might want to actually address his post.

[Souseiseki]

An employer and employee agree to terms. The employer provides capital that allows the employee to be more productive. The employee is not being paid less than they are worth. The employer is being compensated for capital investments and risk taking.

yes, they are. if employees are making things that are sold for £5 but getting paid £0.50 for it, how is that not paying them less than they are worth? they are being paid 10 times less than what they are actually worth to the company.

[Mavorpen]

charity lol!

Americans contributed more to charity in 2006, than the US government spent on welfare. It's not like, it is impossible.

American welfare sucks, news at 11.

[Sibirsky]

OK. What?

Or, rather, to put it simply, what means are there to pay for fundamentally necessary services for those who cannot pay for those services themselves that would not be as equally coercive as taxation?

But but it's better because it goes to business coffers rather than the government.

Yes?

A business that will innovate and expand?

[Conserative Morality]

Yes?

A business that will innovate and expand?

Right. Government doesn't innovate and expand?

[Sibirsky]

Semantics.

A firm, lets call it XYZ Corp and I agree to terms. I will do ABC action and they will pay me $X.

After taxes, I get less than $X. By "more or all of the product of my labor" I was referring to the entire $X.

You agree to terms. You do not receive the products of your labor, you receive compensation for employment. It doesn't matter if you produce $10,000 of *insert product or service here* or $100, you are paid for employment under the terms given until renegotiation of employment contract or termination of employment in most cases.

Ok...

This is still a semantic argument.

[Mavorpen]

Yes?

A business that will innovate and expand?

Right. Government doesn't innovate and expand?

I'll go tell the historians the government had nothing to do with railroads.

[Sibirsky]

No, because it is not a valid contract.

Who defines valid contracts?

And agreement of terms by 2 or more parties.

[Sibirsky]

No, because it is not a valid contract.

So in everything we are going to have a contract? How are you going to manage all that?

Not everything needs a contract.

[Pdiiek]

The question should be "Is taxation wrong, and why?". Taxation isn't wrong, provided it goes towards government investment in infrastructure, education, welfare, healthcare and other things that are ultimately beneficial to society. Taxation is a necessary and inevitable part of living in a complex modern society. Whether it's technically theft, extortion or anything else we usually see as "bad" is irrelevant.

All of that could be privately and voluntarily funded.

The government has a number of advantages over private social programs. The aren't required to break even in one specific program or policy area, they have a much more secure source of income, and they have far greater resources at their disposal.

[Souseiseki]

Yes?

A business that will innovate and expand?

Right. Government doesn't innovate and expand?

oh, it expands alright

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zXDo4dL7SU

[Mavorpen]

Who defines valid contracts?

And agreement of terms by 2 or more parties.

And what keeps one party from changing the contract without notifying the other(s)?

[Conserative Morality]

And agreement of terms by 2 or more parties.

No no no, I didn't ask you to define it. I asked you who defines it.

[Sibirsky]

Living here? Voting? What if I don't vote?

So, being born means you agree?

And that is why, it is not a valid contract.

No, failing to reject the government means you agree.

No, it doesn't.

[Mavorpen]

And agreement of terms by 2 or more parties.

No no no, I didn't ask you to define it. I asked you who defines it.

Also who enforces this to make sure the contracts are valid?

[Souseiseki]

And agreement of terms by 2 or more parties.

And what keeps one party from changing the contract without notifying the other(s)?

the contract itself?

[The Black Forrest]

And agreement of terms by 2 or more parties.

And what keeps one party from changing the contract without notifying the other(s)?

Indeed. For example Microsoft slips in Eula changes while getting patches all the time.

[Souseiseki]

No, failing to reject the government means you agree.

No, it doesn't.

it's like that cool party. everyone assumes you're in unless you say you aren't. also i'll arrest you if you don't come to my cool party.