Taxes are theft

[Kamchastkia]

This is pretty much sums up tax supporters' logic.

Except taxes are legal, theft isn't. And, to break your bubble, money isn't yours, look at the banknotes. What's the US banknotes say? It says "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE", this means it is property of the Federal Reserve AKA the government.

Which is exactly the reason there are laws preventing you from destroying said note, etc. etc. But fine, if you reaaally don't want to pay taxes move into the woods, destroy your electronic footprint and live off the land, other than that, you gotta pay taxes.

[Ceannairceach]

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[Kengburg]

Have you ignored all the posts? THE POINT IS THAT TAXATION IS NOT THEFT!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't give a fuck about the legal definition.

Taxes are not voluntary and are paid under a threat of force.

To make this very simple: Taxes give back. That is what differenteates between theft and taxation. Look at public schools, look at police departments, those are proof that taxes do in fact give back. Theft is taking with no return. Taxation is taking with a return.

[Kamchastkia]

Or,to be more concise,is toilet paper the democratically-elected and very wise government keeps on printing shittons of,because,you know,they are like the Government,and errything is OK cause they are in charge.

The government doesn't print money. In fact, it can't. Only the Fed can print money.

Which is the fucking government >.<

[Conscentia]

Have you ignored all the posts? THE POINT IS THAT TAXATION IS NOT THEFT!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't give a fuck about the legal definition.
Taxes are not voluntary and are paid under a threat of force.

That matters why?
One pays a shop for goods because stealing will also result in the application of force.

[Sibirsky]

Semantics.

The entity with the power to tax, defines legal terms. Hmmm...

And thusly taxes are legal, and theft isn't. As long as the government - the rightful owner of the property AKA the land upon which you live and of which you have a passport AKA a social contract - issues taxes, it is legal, and thus to argue taxes are theft would be to argue that something legal is illegal, and to even believe something as disconnected from reality as that statement is one would have to apply the principle of doublethink; believe it and yet know it is fallacious.

For the love of god, we are not discussing legal definitions.

The government does not own the land I live on. We have private property, here in the US.

The social contract is more bullshit.

[Sibirsky]

Watch it.

Are you that dense? How difficult is it to understand that the legal definition is irrelevant?

The entity that has the power to define what is legal, and illegal, has decided that taxes are legal. And collects those taxes.

Yes and the "entity" is a group of individuals elected by the people for their beliefs, so in sense, taxation is chosen by the people.

Screw the minority. Right?

[Republica Newland]

I don't give a fuck about the legal definition.
Taxes are not voluntary and are paid under a threat of force.

That matters why?
One pays a shop for goods because stealing will also result in the application of force.

Fucking hell,a shop isn't going to shove it's shit down your throat whether you like it or not.

[Neo Art]

The power to arrest is ultimately necessary if any of its other powers are to be enforced.

Thus we agree the government should have the power to do all things necessary for the execution of its other powers.

I would add also that the government should have the power to do all things necessary for the execution of its responsibilities to its citizenry.

This includes having the power to pay for it

[Mavorpen]

For the love of god, we are not discussing legal definitions.

The government does not own the land I live on. We have private property, here in the US.

The social contract is more bullshit.

And yet the government can in fact take your land without your permission provided they compensate you.

So the social contract is bullshit because you say so? What fantastic debating.

[Sibirsky]

This is pretty much sums up tax supporters' logic.

.....yes. Yes it does. That's pretty much the crux of it, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Look, I know you don't LIKE it. I know you don't LIKE the fact that the government can compel you to give up money, I know you wish that it couldn't. I know you think it's "unfair" that the government gets to take your stuff, but if you tried that it'd be theft.

And I'm sure there are thousands of rapists, murderers, robbers, arsonists, abusers and con men who don't LIKE the fact that the government can put them in little cages. I know they wish it couldn't. I know they think it's "unfair" that the government gets to put them in cages, but if they tried it'd be kidnapping.

My answer to you is the same as my answer to them.

Too fucking bad.

Getting to keep more (or all) of the product of your labor, is not infringing on anyone's rights. Unlike rape or murder.

[Republica Newland]

For the love of god, we are not discussing legal definitions.

The government does not own the land I live on. We have private property, here in the US.

The social contract is more bullshit.

And yet the government can in fact take your land without your permission provided they compensate you.

So the social contract is bullshit because you say so? What fantastic debating.

No,it's OK,actually EVERYTHING is OK because the Government says so. Indeed fantastic. Gold medal,to mark your own words.

[Mavorpen]

Yes and the "entity" is a group of individuals elected by the people for their beliefs, so in sense, taxation is chosen by the people.

Screw the minority. Right?

If they want to freeload off of our contributions because they don't have the intellectual honesty to argue why taxes are theft, yes.

[Conscentia]

I don't give a fuck about the legal definition.
Taxes are not voluntary and are paid under a threat of force.

To make this very simple: Taxes give back. That is what differenteates between theft and taxation. Look at public schools, look at police departments, those are proof that taxes do in fact give back. Theft is taking with no return. Taxation is taking with a return.

I used to justify taxation like that but it's just not satisfactory.
Why? Well answer this: Would it be okay if Tesco charged you 1.50 every week off your salary, although offering you free milk?

[Norstal]

Have you ignored all the posts? THE POINT IS THAT TAXATION IS NOT THEFT!!!!!!!!!!!!

I don't give a fuck about the legal definition.

Taxes are not voluntary and are paid under a threat of force.

Oooh, ooooh, I can make a better hyperbole myself too.

If you don't pay taxes, the states will send evil men in black suits that will eviscerate your body in to a bloody mess and put bullet holes across your genitals.

Being anal about why forced actions is worse than voluntary actions is not gonna do anything.

[Neo Art]

Yes and the "entity" is a group of individuals elected by the people for their beliefs, so in sense, taxation is chosen by the people.

Screw the minority. Right?

We do it all the time. I'm sure some minority believes they should have the right to murder whomever they please. I'm sure some minority believes they should have the right to rape whomever they please. I'm sure some minority believes they should have the right to take whatever property they please.

There are lots of groups out there who believe lots of things that are very counter to the interest of the majority. If we accept that we, as a majority, don't really need to make them happy, why should we accomodate your minority beliefs?

[Mavorpen]

And yet the government can in fact take your land without your permission provided they compensate you.

So the social contract is bullshit because you say so? What fantastic debating.

No,it's OK,actually EVERYTHING is OK because the Government says so. Indeed fantastic. Gold medal,to mark your own words.

If I've said that, please point it out. I know your argument rests upon things no one ever said but it's beneficial for us all if you stop it.

[Republica Newland]

This is pretty much sums up tax supporters' logic.

.....yes. Yes it does. That's pretty much the crux of it, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Look, I know you don't LIKE it. I know you don't LIKE the fact that the government can compel you to give up money, I know you wish that it couldn't. I know you think it's "unfair" that the government gets to take your stuff, but if you tried that it'd be theft.

And I'm sure there are thousands of rapists, murderers, robbers, arsonists, abusers and con men who don't LIKE the fact that the government can put them in little cages. I know they wish it couldn't. I know they think it's "unfair" that the government gets to put them in cages, but if they tried it'd be kidnapping.

My answer to you is the same as my answer to them.

Too fucking bad.

Too fucking bad that your logic is so convoluted that you'd put rapists, murderers, robbers, arsonists, abusers and con men in the same basket with people that simply refuse to pay their taxes.Oh wait,you don't do that,it's just a gig for the sake of the argument!

[Kengburg]

Yes and the "entity" is a group of individuals elected by the people for their beliefs, so in sense, taxation is chosen by the people.

Screw the minority. Right?

Yes, screw the handful of people that believe taxes are theft over the millions who don't.

[Sibirsky]

This is pretty much sums up tax supporters' logic.

Except taxes are legal, theft isn't. And, to break your bubble, money isn't yours, look at the banknotes. What's the US banknotes say? It says "FEDERAL RESERVE NOTE", this means it is property of the Federal Reserve AKA the government.

The debate is not about legal definitions.

And if you're going to start bringing money into it, then learn something about it. Money.. that is the cash in circulation is a liability to the Federal Reserve.

You probably don't know what liability means. It ain't no fucking asset. IOW, you are wrong. Cash is the property of many people and entities. And all that cash is a liability to the Fed.

[Mavorpen]

.....yes. Yes it does. That's pretty much the crux of it, yes. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Look, I know you don't LIKE it. I know you don't LIKE the fact that the government can compel you to give up money, I know you wish that it couldn't. I know you think it's "unfair" that the government gets to take your stuff, but if you tried that it'd be theft.

And I'm sure there are thousands of rapists, murderers, robbers, arsonists, abusers and con men who don't LIKE the fact that the government can put them in little cages. I know they wish it couldn't. I know they think it's "unfair" that the government gets to put them in cages, but if they tried it'd be kidnapping.

My answer to you is the same as my answer to them.

Too fucking bad.

Too fucking bad that your logic is so convoluted that you'd put rapists, murderers, robbers, arsonists, abusers and con men in the same basket with people that simply refuse to pay their taxes.Oh wait,you don't do that,it's just a gig for the sake of the argument!

If you state that the social contract is bullshit there is quite honestly little difference between your argument and the arguments of murderers and rapists.

[Conserative Morality]

Getting to keep more (or all) of the product of your labor, is not infringing on anyone's rights. Unlike rape or murder.

So you're in favor of communism?

[Neo Art]

Getting to keep more (or all) of the product of your labor, is not infringing on anyone's rights. Unlike rape or murder.

Oh, that's actually a good one. Wasn't quite expecting that. Ok, duly impressed.

I still defer back to my earlier point, primarily that if we are to expect the government to uphold its responsibilities (such as law enforcement) we must allow them an adequate means to pay for that.

[Sibirsky]

The question should be "Is taxation wrong, and why?". Taxation isn't wrong, provided it goes towards government investment in infrastructure, education, welfare, healthcare and other things that are ultimately beneficial to society. Taxation is a necessary and inevitable part of living in a complex modern society. Whether it's technically theft, extortion or anything else we usually see as "bad" is irrelevant.

All of that could be privately and voluntarily funded.

[Sibirsky]

I don't give a fuck about the legal definition.

Taxes are not voluntary and are paid under a threat of force.

To make this very simple: Taxes give back. That is what differenteates between theft and taxation. Look at public schools, look at police departments, those are proof that taxes do in fact give back. Theft is taking with no return. Taxation is taking with a return.

A very bad return.

All of that, can be privately and voluntarily funded.