No one wants to be Rich.

[Des-Bal]

I see...I though you'd catch on quicker. Never in my life have I been so wrong.

Not taking a job equals no income to feed your children. Hence, no choice but to take that unfair job or die starving.

Probably shouldn't have had children. Either enter into the agreement that's being offered or don't. It's not the companies responsibility to offer you a job at all.

[Free South Califas]

I never understood the idea of realistic medieval role playing.

"I rolled a 7, what's that mean"

"well....you toil in the fields for 25 years before dying of cholera at the age of 38"

If you get a natural 20, you marry the Lord and die in childbirth at 26.

The first edition of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons is more realistic (a relative thing for a universe with dragons, orcs, zombies, etc). The unofficial theme is basically "not everyone can be a hero"; most campaigns start with the promise of riches (hence why these individuals aren't toiling, marrying, etc) and end in quick, grisly deaths for all characters (as appropriate for more or less average people with nothing to lose).

[Neo Art]

Yes.

Right so they can treat you however they like, even if you are desperate and absolutely need a job, they can still do that in your worldview...

I'm am constantly, utterly, and eternally amazed how "work for near slavery or starve to death" is just a perfectly valid choice to impose upon people and something that they just have to deal with, but "pay your taxes or go to jail" is a horrifically oppressive system of a corrupted regime that needs to be overthrown by violence. WOLVERINES!

[Farnhamia]

You don't use them, Hippo, because you still live at home with your parents. Full disclosure is a good thing, you know. And you should read that last post out loud, maybe you'll realize just how silly it is. "poorer people are using the state to steal money and wealth from succesful people!"

I hope his opinion will change when he grows the fuck up.

Hope springs eternal, I guess.

[Immoren]

Probably shouldn't have had children.

Because Clairvoyance is so common skill among humans.

[Neo Art]

Yes.

Right so they can treat you however they like, even if you are desperate and absolutely need a job, they can still do that in your worldview.

So much for an actual choice.

It's amazing how often people forget that the big advocates of the beginning of the social safety net in the United States were the capitalist business owners. For all their greed, gluttony, and averace, at least they understood that if people get desperate enough, hungry enough, and have nothing else to lose, than stringing up a Carnegie or Rockafeller in the public square starts to look like a good idea.

[Duvniask]

Right so they can treat you however they like, even if you are desperate and absolutely need a job, they can still do that in your worldview...

I'm am constantly, utterly, and eternally amazed how "work for near slavery or starve to death" is just a perfectly valid choice to impose upon people and something that they just have to deal with, but "pay your taxes or go to jail" is a horrifically oppressive system of a corrupted regime that needs to be overthrown by violence. WOLVERINES!

It is truly strange, that they claim to advocate liberty for all, yet in their system, most of the liberties belong to a few.

[The Merchant Republics]

What services? I certainly do not use any kind of public healthcare, social welfare or other bullshit like that, I see no reason to pay for something I don't use. If you want social security, pay for it yourself.. But wait, I forgot.. Those services are based on theft, poorer people are using the state to steal money and wealth from succesful people!

So you don't use public roads?

You don't want patent protection?

No copyright laws?

No public education?

No agency to make sure your water isn't polluted?

No agency to make sure your food is safe?

Until you give up all of this, don't expect me to take you seriously.

It's not about not having an agency to look after water pollution and food safety. These agencies still have a place in a libertarian society.

It's about what controls those agencies, with what powers and for what purpose.

It's likewise not about not having universal education, universal education is universally desired it's about how that education is delivered to whose standards and whether we are educating people because education is moral and righteous or whether we are doing it out of malicious elitism.

Do you think people should be educated so they can be the best they can be? Or do you wish it so they will agree with you?

Should the children of the third world not be working because it makes them poorer (it objectively does not), or because it is better that they be educated? Or is it simply because it offends your sensibilities.

Should the rich pay more taxes because they can and the poor cannot? Or is it simply because you believe they owe something to you for their wealth?


Oh, yes. Libertarians may have bad marketing but our reasons are pure, meanwhile modern progressives for all their excellent wrapping and brand image I have found all too often to be rotten at the core. Good intentions are far more harmful when they are applied without reason or consent.

[Des-Bal]

I'm am constantly, utterly, and eternally amazed how "work for near slavery or starve to death" is just a perfectly valid choice to impose upon people and something that they just have to deal with, but "pay your taxes or go to jail" is a horrifically oppressive system of a corrupted regime that needs to be overthrown by violence. WOLVERINES!

Key difference is that in one instance it's one entity saying give me your money or I will punish you in the other it's one entity saying I'll make a deal with you and the laws of nature saying if you don't you're going to die.

[Neo Art]

I'm am constantly, utterly, and eternally amazed how "work for near slavery or starve to death" is just a perfectly valid choice to impose upon people and something that they just have to deal with, but "pay your taxes or go to jail" is a horrifically oppressive system of a corrupted regime that needs to be overthrown by violence. WOLVERINES!

Key difference is that in one instance it's one entity saying give me your money or I will punish you in the other it's one entity saying I'll make a deal with you and the laws of nature saying if you don't you're going to die.

The fact that you can't walk through bars is just a law of nature.

[Mavorpen]

It's not about not having an agency to look after water pollution and food safety. These agencies still have a place in a libertarian society.

It's about what controls those agencies, with what powers and for what purpose.

So it's basically whining like children that you don't get your way.

[Des-Bal]

Because Clairvoyance is so common skill among humans.

Who could guess that having children when you have literally no money would be a poor decision.

[Tlaceceyaya]

We don't ask conservatives to love it.

We ask them to stop whining about "theft" while using the services of their supposed thieves, despite the fact no one is forcing them to live here.

What services? I certainly do not use any kind of public healthcare, social welfare or other bullshit like that, I see no reason to pay for something I don't use. If you want social security, pay for it yourself.. But wait, I forgot.. Those services are based on theft, poorer people are using the state to steal money and wealth from succesful people!

You haven't received an education, then?
You don't live in Finnish territory?
You don't use roads?

[Yes Im Biop]

Bank's, People who couldn't pay their mortgage's, People who don't pay Tax's.

I'm going to see if we can revoke your silver awards.

[Neo Art]

It's not about not having an agency to look after water pollution and food safety. These agencies still have a place in a libertarian society.

It's about what controls those agencies, with what powers and for what purpose.

And when deciding who controls those agencies, an elected government subject to the will of the people and bound by a constitutional system, or a business bound by no laws and answerable to no one, you inexplicably choose door #2?

That's rather stupid.

[Laerod]

I'm am constantly, utterly, and eternally amazed how "work for near slavery or starve to death" is just a perfectly valid choice to impose upon people and something that they just have to deal with, but "pay your taxes or go to jail" is a horrifically oppressive system of a corrupted regime that needs to be overthrown by violence. WOLVERINES!

Key difference is that in one instance it's one entity saying give me your money or I will punish you in the other it's one entity saying I'll make a deal with you and the laws of nature saying if you don't you're going to die.

Still two entities doing punishing.

[Hurdegaryp]

On another note, your OP could use some work. I don't see alot of room to debate here and frankly it seems like you're coming into the argument with your mind already set on something, so why exactly are you seeking dialogue, or do you just want a shouting match?

This is General, so most threads inevitably end up like that. Let's see how hard everybody can shout, shall we?

[Immoren]

Because Clairvoyance is so common skill among humans.

Who could guess that having children when you have literally no money would be a poor decision.

Because everyone can predict their future fortunes at 100% probability.

[Laerod]

:palm:

I'm going to see if we can revoke your silver awards.

Why? Those only really say things about the people that award them to begin with.

[Duvniask]

Key difference is that in one instance it's one entity saying give me your money or I will punish you in the other it's one entity saying I'll make a deal with you and the laws of nature saying if you don't you're going to die.

Still two entities doing punishing.

The first puts you behind bars, the second just lets you die. So one may actually be worse than the other.

[Neo Art]

Still two entities doing punishing.

The first puts you behind bars, the second just lets you die.

Again, the fact that you can't render your body intangible and slip through the bars is just a law of nature. Nobody is MAKING you stay behind the bars, any more than anybody is MAKING them starve. "not being able to walk through walls" just one of those pesky facts about being human, much like "needs food to live"

[Duvniask]

The first puts you behind bars, the second just lets you die.

Again, the fact that you can't render your body intangible and slip through the bars is just a law of nature. Nobody is MAKING you stay behind the bars, any more than anybody is MAKING them starve. "not being able to walk through walls" just one of those pesky facts about being human, much like "needs food to live"

Which i don't dispute at all. I'm just saying that there's a difference in how you're punished.

[The Merchant Republics]

Right so they can treat you however they like, even if you are desperate and absolutely need a job, they can still do that in your worldview.

So much for an actual choice.

It's amazing how often people forget that the big advocates of the beginning of the social safety net in the United States were the capitalist business owners. For all their greed, gluttony, and averace, at least they understood that if people get desperate enough, hungry enough, and have nothing else to lose, than stringing up a Carnegie or Rockafeller in the public square starts to look like a good idea.

Carnegie and Rockefeller were men of good hearts and faith, who should be lauded in our society. You do a great disservice to them by calling them gluttons, or implying they only wanted social safety nets because they would otherwise be strung up in the streets.

Or are you so incapable of believing business men can have goodness in their hearts.

This is what makes me sick with modern society. Scorning those who earned their wealth without understanding, decrying those who laid the foundations of the current era of prosperity. Treating the poor as if they were ignorant masses with no concept of self-preservation. Lauding education only when it moulds ideological clones spitting out nonsense in hopes that numbers and good feelings will silence the opposition.

[Neo Art]

This is what makes me sick with modern society.

*Whines about "modern society"*

*does so with a computer, and on the internet*

Seems legit.

[Souseiseki]

It's amazing how often people forget that the big advocates of the beginning of the social safety net in the United States were the capitalist business owners. For all their greed, gluttony, and averace, at least they understood that if people get desperate enough, hungry enough, and have nothing else to lose, than stringing up a Carnegie or Rockafeller in the public square starts to look like a good idea.

Carnegie and Rockefeller were men of good hearts and faith, who should be lauded in our society. You do a great disservice to them by calling them gluttons, or implying they only wanted social safety nets because they would otherwise be strung up in the streets.

Or are you so incapable of believing business men can have goodness in their hearts.

This is what makes me sick with modern society. Scorning those who earned their wealth without understanding, decrying those who laid the foundations of the current era of prosperity. Treating the poor as if they were ignorant masses with no concept of self-preservation. Lauding education only when it moulds ideological clones spitting out nonsense in hopes that numbers and good feelings will silence the opposition.

so, you think monopolies are aggressively created in good faith?

i'm sure people like bismarck truly cared for the people