No one wants to be Rich.

[Divair]

Silly Mav, that's socialism!

Not when it's done by the glorious Free Market Fairy (tm).

Is this the point at which we start chanting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" or is that later?

[Meryuma]

Taxation is theft. So is wealth redistribution.

Capitalism is historically founded on systemic state theft and economic control in a way that any consistent free-market libertarian should be able to acknowledge.

The business elite are the primary beneficiary of state intervention, not its victim.

[Neo Art]

Did I say they did it themselves?

Do they have free markets?

Do your rhetorical questions reinforce your points? Or are they just kind of annoying?

Wait, I know how to answer this one for him. Just a sec. *clears throat* Ready? OK, here we go.



.....damn it!

[Des-Bal]

When you think about it, this is the reason they use the term "job creators." They have to convince themselves that companies are always doing things for the good of the people. They have to convince themselves that the prime goal of companies is to create jobs. Never mind the fact that at the same time it's always, "The profit-motive creates wealth and competition and drags people out of poverty!"

So which is it? Are they focused primarily on profit or creating jobs? Do the Job Creators (tm) really wake up in the morning, open up a window, see a poor, starving child, and think, "Hmm, I think I'll expand my company today for that one child, even though profits aren't going up. FOR THE COMMUNITY!" followed by them jumping out of the window like Superman?

That seems to discount the idea of mutual self-interest. Companies aren't interested in creating jobs and employees aren't interested in the companies profits. The company's actions towards it's employees are directed towards making them profitable investments and the objective of the employees is simply to retain their jobs. You must live in a very dark world that people are incapable of doing anything without causing each other immediate harm.

[Mavorpen]

Not when it's done by the glorious Free Market Fairy (tm).

Is this the point at which we start chanting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" or is that later?

First we need to do the customary circle jerk with a book by Ayn Rand in the center.

[Divair]

Is this the point at which we start chanting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" or is that later?

First we need to do the customary circle jerk with a book of Ayn Rand in the center.

I'll go get the golden robes.

[Mavorpen]

When you think about it, this is the reason they use the term "job creators." They have to convince themselves that companies are always doing things for the good of the people. They have to convince themselves that the prime goal of companies is to create jobs. Never mind the fact that at the same time it's always, "The profit-motive creates wealth and competition and drags people out of poverty!"

So which is it? Are they focused primarily on profit or creating jobs? Do the Job Creators (tm) really wake up in the morning, open up a window, see a poor, starving child, and think, "Hmm, I think I'll expand my company today for that one child, even though profits aren't going up. FOR THE COMMUNITY!" followed by them jumping out of the window like Superman?

That seems to discount the idea of mutual self-interest. Companies aren't interested in creating jobs and employees aren't interested in the companies profits. The company's actions towards it's employees are directed towards making them profitable investments and the objective of the employees is simply to retain their jobs. You must live in a very dark world that people are incapable of doing anything without causing each other immediate harm.

The fuck are you talking about?

[Souseiseki]

exactly what it says on the tin!

Sous. What is this shit.

well it's just that i saw sibirsky talking about private roads so i had flashbacks to when sibirsky sent me a book about private roads.

"In the case of intersection ownership by a third party, the two cross street owners will bid for the green-light time."

"A second source of potential competition derives, as we have seen, from the possibility of building another road above the road in question, or tunneling beneath it."

it was a... harrowing experience

"Machines scattered about the roads, or sensors under the pavement, would record our comings and goings. That information would go to Cirrus and Pulse, and from them to our road providers. We might get three or four monthly bills, or just one, depending on the wherewithal of road owners."

"Without having had forcible government the last two hundred years, would the interstate system have come about? We can’t know, but we shouldn’t care."

"This does not mean that were thoroughfares placed in private hands that the death toll would be zero. It would not. But, at least, every time the life of someone was tragically snuffed out, someone in a position to ameliorate these dangerous conditions would lose money, and this tends, wonderfully, to focus the minds of the owners. This is why we do not have similar problems with bananas, baskets, and bicycles, and the myriad of other goods and services supplied to us by a (relatively) free enterprise system."

"Typical is the treatment undertaken by Sam Peltzman, who lists no less than thirteen possible causes of accident rates without even once mentioning the fact of government ownership and management."

"In advocating a free market in roads, on one level, we shall be merely arguing that there is nothing unique about transportation"

"One scenario would follow the shopping center model: a single owner-builder would buy a section of territory and build roads and (fronting them) houses."

"In the case of intersection ownership by a third party, the two cross street owners will bid for the green-light time."

"A second source of potential competition derives, as we have seen, from the possibility of building another road above the road in question, or tunneling beneath it."

[Divair]

Sous. What is this shit.

well it's just that i saw sibirsky talking about private roads so i had flashbacks to when sibirsky sent me a book about private roads.

"In the case of intersection ownership by a third party, the two cross street owners will bid for the green-light time."

"A second source of potential competition derives, as we have seen, from the possibility of building another road above the road in question, or tunneling beneath it."

it was a... harrowing experience

"Machines scattered about the roads, or sensors under the pavement, would record our comings and goings. That information would go to Cirrus and Pulse, and from them to our road providers. We might get three or four monthly bills, or just one, depending on the wherewithal of road owners."

"Without having had forcible government the last two hundred years, would the interstate system have come about? We can’t know, but we shouldn’t care."

"This does not mean that were thoroughfares placed in private hands that the death toll would be zero. It would not. But, at least, every time the life of someone was tragically snuffed out, someone in a position to ameliorate these dangerous conditions would lose money, and this tends, wonderfully, to focus the minds of the owners. This is why we do not have similar problems with bananas, baskets, and bicycles, and the myriad of other goods and services supplied to us by a (relatively) free enterprise system."

"Typical is the treatment undertaken by Sam Peltzman, who lists no less than thirteen possible causes of accident rates without even once mentioning the fact of government ownership and management."

"In advocating a free market in roads, on one level, we shall be merely arguing that there is nothing unique about transportation"

"One scenario would follow the shopping center model: a single owner-builder would buy a section of territory and build roads and (fronting them) houses."

"In the case of intersection ownership by a third party, the two cross street owners will bid for the green-light time."

"A second source of potential competition derives, as we have seen, from the possibility of building another road above the road in question, or tunneling beneath it."

wat

This is beyond weird.

[Frisivisia]

Is this the point at which we start chanting "U-S-A! U-S-A!" or is that later?

First we need to do the customary circle jerk with a book by Ayn Rand in the center.

Then we burn a copy of the Communist Manifesto while eating non-FDA Approved Chex Mix.

[The Merchant Republics]

If a burglar enters your home and steals your money, that is theft. Why is it that when the burglar is called the IRS, and you are given jail time if you resist (as you rightfully should) it is okay?

At least when it's the IRS, you are supporting the state. Not a guy who wants cocaine

I'm not sure why that would be comforting?

If I could choose between my money going to a desperate cokehead or the US government, I'd choose the addict.
First of all, he's less likely to kill anyone if I give him my money.
Second, he may eventually recover and stop taking my money.
He doesn't ask me to thank him or pretend it's my duty to be robbed.
If he gets violent and assaults me, I'm within my rights to stop him.
Lastly, he may just be grateful for my generosity and do something productive with my money.

Yeah, I'll take the drug addict. Is that an option I can tick off on the form?

[Des-Bal]

That seems to discount the idea of mutual self-interest. Companies aren't interested in creating jobs and employees aren't interested in the companies profits. The company's actions towards it's employees are directed towards making them profitable investments and the objective of the employees is simply to retain their jobs. You must live in a very dark world that people are incapable of doing anything without causing each other immediate harm.

The fuck are you talking about?

Well given that you just quoted every piece of relevant information there's quite literally no way I can explain it any more plainly.

[Falcania]

Sous. What is this shit.

well it's just that i saw sibirsky talking about private roads so i had flashbacks to when sibirsky sent me a book about private roads.

"In the case of intersection ownership by a third party, the two cross street owners will bid for the green-light time."

"A second source of potential competition derives, as we have seen, from the possibility of building another road above the road in question, or tunneling beneath it."

it was a... harrowing experience

"Machines scattered about the roads, or sensors under the pavement, would record our comings and goings. That information would go to Cirrus and Pulse, and from them to our road providers. We might get three or four monthly bills, or just one, depending on the wherewithal of road owners."

"Without having had forcible government the last two hundred years, would the interstate system have come about? We can’t know, but we shouldn’t care."

"This does not mean that were thoroughfares placed in private hands that the death toll would be zero. It would not. But, at least, every time the life of someone was tragically snuffed out, someone in a position to ameliorate these dangerous conditions would lose money, and this tends, wonderfully, to focus the minds of the owners. This is why we do not have similar problems with bananas, baskets, and bicycles, and the myriad of other goods and services supplied to us by a (relatively) free enterprise system."

"Typical is the treatment undertaken by Sam Peltzman, who lists no less than thirteen possible causes of accident rates without even once mentioning the fact of government ownership and management."

"In advocating a free market in roads, on one level, we shall be merely arguing that there is nothing unique about transportation"

"One scenario would follow the shopping center model: a single owner-builder would buy a section of territory and build roads and (fronting them) houses."

"In the case of intersection ownership by a third party, the two cross street owners will bid for the green-light time."

"A second source of potential competition derives, as we have seen, from the possibility of building another road above the road in question, or tunneling beneath it."

I love threads like this, because all these outlandish ancap bullshit proposals are brilliant fuel for the Free Kingdom of Falcania. Which is, of course, the comedy cyberpunk dystopia that Sibirsky would love to live in, if he was a bird mutant like Falcanians are.

[The Merchant Republics]

First we need to do the customary circle jerk with a book by Ayn Rand in the center.

Then we burn a copy of the Communist Manifesto while eating non-FDA Approved Chex Mix.

Hey, I don't knock what you do on your Thursday nights.

And you forgot the unpasturiezed milk drinking contests.

[New Bierstaat]

In fairness, here's what I think he's arguing:

1) There are services that are currently provided by the government (and not by the private sector) which are essential for living.

2) We need those services to live, but we don't necessarily need government to provide them.

3) Therefore, he feels it is unfair for him to be called out for using essential services which he believes SHOULD be provided by the private sector, because there currently are no private-sector alternatives available to him.

The problem, of course, is that even if we accept this argument, even if we give him the full benefit of the doubt, even if we presume everything he said to be absolutely correct, this still requires him to accept that certain services are fundamentally essential for living, accept that he'd almost certainly purchase them ANYWAY (being that they're are essential) and accept that if these (once again, essential) services were provided at a "pay for play" service for purchasers, and not for public consumption, there would be people unable to afford them.

Remember, if they're essential services, than anyone who could afford them would purchase them ANYWAY. His main complaint is not that he has to pay for them, his primary whine is how he has to pay for them, the method by which he pays for them (taxes instead of, I suppose, writing a check or signing a contract). And he fully accepts that if we went his way, people less fortunate it for him would be left out in the cold.

Meaning, giving him the full benefit of the doubt, all reasonable inferences in his favor, his argument still is that we should let people starve because he doesn't like how his bill gets presented to him.

Fuck that shit.

I understand both your arguments here. He doesn't want his money to forcibly go to paying for other people's things. You say there are certain basic services that everyone should be able to count on. As much as I hate laws that take money from one person to pay for another person's things, I have to agree that there are some things that should be paid for equally by the community.
Then who is to decide what essential services are? I'll give it my opinion. You're free to disagree, of course.

And this list is for CITIZENS ONLY. Illegal immigrants, not taxpayers' problem. Go home.

• Roads
• Defense (Military, Border Patrol, etc.)
• Emergency Services (Fire, Police, Ambulance)
• Food and shelter as a TEMPORARY safety net for those who truly need it. Government should be very conservative about granting this, and should only grant it for a specified amount of time. Food should be limited to healthy food to better the poor and to limit the need for emergency healthcare as much as possible.
• Disability benefits for the permanently disabled, to be granted only when necessary and cover food, shelter, and basic utilities (electricity, water, gas, and maybe a home phone)
• Emergency healthcare including only life-saving procedures (including abortion of an ectopic or other life-threatening pregnancy). Intended to be very basic in nature, a safety net in case of need, not something people depend on to pay for their healthcare.
• Public transit to and from a new job for someone transitioning from poverty in unemployment to employment.

Again, I feel that these should be very basic things, not the bloated, bureaucratic progressive version.

If people can't afford these very basic expenses, I don't have a problem with subsidizing it through taxpayer funds. Give them heat, water, electricity, food if they truly need it. If they can't afford something else, like a cell phone or an iPad, screw them. Not my problem as a taxpayer.

Lastly, a key to making this work is to make the government pay directly for the services instead of giving the people the money. Otherwise the money can be spent on stuff like alcohol (very common), gambling, tobacco, illegal drugs, etc.

Critical public services must be provided. But we mustn't let progressives turn them into bloated redistributionist versions of themselves.

Neo Art, you have a pretty good knack for saying what needs to be said without demeaning those who disagree with you. A lot of other people here could learn volumes from your example.

[Mavorpen]

The fuck are you talking about?

Well given that you just quoted every piece of relevant information there's quite literally no way I can explain it any more plainly.

There was nothing relevant about your post. Nowhere did I say employees are interested in the company profits or the company is interested in creating jobsm

[Frisivisia]

Then we burn a copy of the Communist Manifesto while eating non-FDA Approved Chex Mix.

Hey, I don't knock what you do on your Thursday nights.

And you forgot the unpasturiezed milk drinking contests.

Damn you, Louis Pasteuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuur!!!!

[Nidaria]

You're not going to get any, you know. He won't provide them. Sibirsky doesn't actually argue; he merely states his assertions and then mashes the face palm smiley when people don't accept his word as the gospel truth.

And that's why you have to melt his face with the source gun, which initiates a logic C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER, which means I win and my E-Peen grows and inch larger and harder.

And you wonder why people never take you seriously?

[Sucrati]

You're right, some people don't want the average denizen to believe that they should be able to be successful starting with little to nothing while not relying on the government for the most part.

Also, if the average denizen somehow becomes massively successful, it seems that their success should not be their own but should be shared for the common good of the people!

Of course while they say that, they aren't following their own advice and seek to enrich themselves through a tax code which they and their predecessors have built up for decades. If you aren't part of their inner circle or connected to it somehow, you're looked down upon as people who are considered 'McMillionaires' who live in mansions and drive their inefficient SUVs around town to run errands. They see that as unfair to those who don't have those nice things. Tell me, do you believe that most of the people who complain about the plight of the poor (but are stinking rich), would ever live as they would want the average denizen to live? I don't believe they would.

/endrant

[Frisivisia]

And that's why you have to melt his face with the source gun, which initiates a logic C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER, which means I win and my E-Peen grows and inch larger and harder.

And you wonder why people never take you seriously?

I always figured it was because of my flag. People must think I'm Joe Biden.

[Nidaria]

And you wonder why people never take you seriously?

I always figured it was because of my flag. People must think I'm Joe Biden.

People care less about flags, behavior is what matters.

[Immoren]

And you wonder why people never take you seriously?

I always figured it was because of my flag. People must think I'm Joe Biden.

You aren't? D:

[Frisivisia]

I always figured it was because of my flag. People must think I'm Joe Biden.

People care less about flags, behavior is what matters.

Am I too rowdy for your taste? Would it feel better if I let you win an argument?

[Nua Corda]

Well, studies do show that being wealthy actually tends to make you unhappy. Supposedly, being smack-dab in the middle of the middle class is the happiest place to be; you have just enough that you don't worry about money, and not enough so that the money is a burden on you, or you catch Midas Syndrome. So, I know I wouldn't want to be rich. I aspire to a small apartment and a minimalist lifestyle, my only extravagances being a nice car and maybe some property up north for my rifle collection.

[Souseiseki]

And that's why you have to melt his face with the source gun, which initiates a logic C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER, which means I win and my E-Peen grows and inch larger and harder.

And you wonder why people never take you seriously?

i will help him be a serious poster