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No one wants to be Rich.

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Salamanderston
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No one wants to be Rich.

Postby Salamanderston » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:11 pm

Well shoot me dead for saying this but;

No one at this rate wants to be Rich or Successful.

What is the point anymore.

The united states government just kicked me in the knee when I realized my dead end job makes FAR less money then people who literally do nothing and collect welfare checks.

Why work your way to the top if the only reward you get is to pay far more taxes then everyone else? Why go through the bullshit of dealing with nasty employees, leaches within the company, government breathing down your neck, and having the responsibility of running a large company as a CEO?

A better question is; why do people only focus on company owners and not on sports stars and celebrities who make sometimes just as much, or their industries? Are they immune to scrutiny just because a majority of celebrities turn out to be scum, but yet no one ever looks at their overly pompous life styles as much as they do the CEOs of major companies?

I personally could care less what people make, nor is it my business to say to want to know how much people make. If they make lots of money, more power to them. Do they deserve it? Depends on whom you are pointing at.

Let's discuss this, do we really want a society that punishes people for having wealth?

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North Stradia
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Postby North Stradia » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:13 pm

Taxation is theft. So is wealth redistribution.
I am a Feudo-capitalist, egoist, and a supporter of plutocracy.
R.I.P. Sark, the last feudalist State in the world, born 933, died 2008
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Tlaceceyaya
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:15 pm

It's not punishment. Everyone is taxed, with exceptions such as those who are too poor. It's simply that the wealthy can afford to pay more, so they are taxed more. The poor cannot afford to pay as much, so they aren't taxed as much.
Economic Left/Right -9.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -8.87
Also, Bonobos.
I am a market socialist, atheist, more to come maybe at some point
Dimitri Tsafendas wrote:You are guilty not only when you commit a crime, but also when you do nothing to prevent it when you have the chance.

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North Stradia
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Postby North Stradia » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:15 pm

Tlaceceyaya wrote:It's not punishment. Everyone is taxed, with exceptions such as those who are too poor. It's simply that the wealthy can afford to pay more, so they are taxed more. The poor cannot afford to pay as much, so they aren't taxed as much.

Taxation is theft.
I am a Feudo-capitalist, egoist, and a supporter of plutocracy.
R.I.P. Sark, the last feudalist State in the world, born 933, died 2008
Economic Left/Right: +9.89
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: +8.12
Foreign Policy Non-Interventionist/Neocon: +5.88
Cultural Liberal/Conservative: +2.90

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Mike the Progressive
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Postby Mike the Progressive » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:16 pm

I don't have a problem paying more taxes. I don't like the 1% versus 99% rhetoric. Wealthy people should pay more, but not just because they are wealthy.

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Tlaceceyaya
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:16 pm

North Stradia wrote:
Tlaceceyaya wrote:It's not punishment. Everyone is taxed, with exceptions such as those who are too poor. It's simply that the wealthy can afford to pay more, so they are taxed more. The poor cannot afford to pay as much, so they aren't taxed as much.

Taxation is theft.

Care to explain how?
Economic Left/Right -9.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -8.87
Also, Bonobos.
I am a market socialist, atheist, more to come maybe at some point
Dimitri Tsafendas wrote:You are guilty not only when you commit a crime, but also when you do nothing to prevent it when you have the chance.

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Seperates
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Postby Seperates » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:17 pm

Do I want to be successful? Of course. And I work for that.

Do I really care if that success bequeaths wealth? Not particularly.
This Debate is simply an exercise in Rhetoric. Truth is a fickle being with no intentions of showing itself today.

Non fui, fui, non sum, non curo

"The most important fact about us: that we are greater than the institutions and cultures we build."--Roberto Mangabeira Unger

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:17 pm

North Stradia wrote:Taxation is theft. So is wealth redistribution.


You can parrot "Taxation is theft" all you want. It's been explained to you why it is not.

Social programs are not wealth redistribution.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Thafoo
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Postby Thafoo » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:17 pm

North Stradia wrote:Taxation is theft. So is wealth redistribution.

We're quite the little libertarian, aren't we?

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North Stradia
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Postby North Stradia » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:17 pm

Tlaceceyaya wrote:
North Stradia wrote:Taxation is theft.

Care to explain how?

If a burglar enters your home and steals your money, that is theft. Why is it that when the burglar is called the IRS, and you are given jail time if you resist (as you rightfully should) it is okay?
I am a Feudo-capitalist, egoist, and a supporter of plutocracy.
R.I.P. Sark, the last feudalist State in the world, born 933, died 2008
Economic Left/Right: +9.89
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: +8.12
Foreign Policy Non-Interventionist/Neocon: +5.88
Cultural Liberal/Conservative: +2.90

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Salamanderston
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Postby Salamanderston » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:18 pm

Mike the Progressive wrote:I don't have a problem paying more taxes. I don't like the 1% versus 99% rhetoric. Wealthy people should pay more, but not just because they are wealthy.


My family believes in a flat tax system, everyone pays the same taxes regardless of personal wealth.

The problem is, why are we encouraging people think the american dream as a welfare check that comes in daily or that new social program to 'improve' a pathetic existence?

You may want to pay more taxes, but many like myself do not.

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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:19 pm

North Stradia wrote:Taxation is theft. So is wealth redistribution.

Seriously, at least TRY to be on topic, for fucks sake.
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Thafoo
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Postby Thafoo » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:19 pm

North Stradia wrote:
Tlaceceyaya wrote:Care to explain how?

If a burglar enters your home and steals your money, that is theft. Why is it that when the burglar is called the IRS, and you are given jail time if you resist (as you rightfully should) it is okay?

At least when it's the IRS, you are supporting the state. Not a guy who wants cocaine

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Tlaceceyaya
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Postby Tlaceceyaya » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:20 pm

North Stradia wrote:
Tlaceceyaya wrote:Care to explain how?

If a burglar enters your home and steals your money, that is theft. Why is it that when the burglar is called the IRS, and you are given jail time if you resist (as you rightfully should) it is okay?

If you don't want to pay taxes, you can leave the country and go to some place where you won't have to pay taxes. Become a pirate or move to somalia or something.
The burglary analogy is only valid if you're only burgled if you're a resident of a certain town, the money goes towards improving the town and your life, and you never have to be burgled because you can just leave.
Economic Left/Right -9.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -8.87
Also, Bonobos.
I am a market socialist, atheist, more to come maybe at some point
Dimitri Tsafendas wrote:You are guilty not only when you commit a crime, but also when you do nothing to prevent it when you have the chance.

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Condunum
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Postby Condunum » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:20 pm

Thafoo wrote:
North Stradia wrote:Taxation is theft. So is wealth redistribution.

We're quite the little libertarian, aren't we?

He's an Objectivist. That means he has a very very silly philosophy.
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Salamanderston
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Postby Salamanderston » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:21 pm

Thafoo wrote:
North Stradia wrote:If a burglar enters your home and steals your money, that is theft. Why is it that when the burglar is called the IRS, and you are given jail time if you resist (as you rightfully should) it is okay?

At least when it's the IRS, you are supporting the state. Not a guy who wants cocaine


Which then goes to a drug addict who then spends his welfare check on cocaine.

Because we all know people who get welfare spend their money so wisely. . . .

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:21 pm

Salamanderston wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:I don't have a problem paying more taxes. I don't like the 1% versus 99% rhetoric. Wealthy people should pay more, but not just because they are wealthy.


My family believes in a flat tax system, everyone pays the same taxes regardless of personal wealth.

The problem is, why are we encouraging people think the american dream as a welfare check that comes in daily or that new social program to 'improve' a pathetic existence?

You may want to pay more taxes, but many like myself do not.


Flat tax sounds nice. Problem is 14% to the poor hurts a great deal more then 14% on the wealthy.

Finally, people who bitch about welfare tend to know very little about it.

Here is a hint. The welfare queen is a Regan lie.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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North Stradia
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Postby North Stradia » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:21 pm

Thafoo wrote:
North Stradia wrote:If a burglar enters your home and steals your money, that is theft. Why is it that when the burglar is called the IRS, and you are given jail time if you resist (as you rightfully should) it is okay?

At least when it's the IRS, you are supporting the state. Not a guy who wants cocaine

The state is coercion. I don't support coercion.
I am a Feudo-capitalist, egoist, and a supporter of plutocracy.
R.I.P. Sark, the last feudalist State in the world, born 933, died 2008
Economic Left/Right: +9.89
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: +8.12
Foreign Policy Non-Interventionist/Neocon: +5.88
Cultural Liberal/Conservative: +2.90

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Thafoo
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Postby Thafoo » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:22 pm

Salamanderston wrote:
Thafoo wrote:At least when it's the IRS, you are supporting the state. Not a guy who wants cocaine


Which then goes to a drug addict who then spends his welfare check on cocaine.

Because we all know people who get welfare spend their money so wisely. . . .

J.K. Rowling sure did.

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North Stradia
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Postby North Stradia » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:22 pm

Condunum wrote:
Thafoo wrote:We're quite the little libertarian, aren't we?

He's an Objectivist. That means he has a very very silly philosophy.

No. I'm a voluntaryist.
I am a Feudo-capitalist, egoist, and a supporter of plutocracy.
R.I.P. Sark, the last feudalist State in the world, born 933, died 2008
Economic Left/Right: +9.89
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: +8.12
Foreign Policy Non-Interventionist/Neocon: +5.88
Cultural Liberal/Conservative: +2.90

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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:22 pm

Salamanderston wrote:
Thafoo wrote:At least when it's the IRS, you are supporting the state. Not a guy who wants cocaine


Which then goes to a drug addict who then spends his welfare check on cocaine.

Because we all know people who get welfare spend their money so wisely. . . .


Wow. That was pretty ignorant.

Got some number to back up those claims.

Make it simple.

Welfare users and how many of them use it for drugs.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Tlaceceyaya
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Founded: Oct 17, 2011
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Tlaceceyaya » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:23 pm

Salamanderston wrote:
Thafoo wrote:At least when it's the IRS, you are supporting the state. Not a guy who wants cocaine


Which then goes to a drug addict who then spends his welfare check on cocaine.

Because we all know people who get welfare spend their money so wisely. . . .

There are about 4.3 million americans on welfare. Are you saying that the majority of them are fools who got there because they're unable to handle money at all, and have no extenuating circumstances or shitty luck?
Oh, and the number of americans on foodstamps is tenfold.
Economic Left/Right -9.75, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian -8.87
Also, Bonobos.
I am a market socialist, atheist, more to come maybe at some point
Dimitri Tsafendas wrote:You are guilty not only when you commit a crime, but also when you do nothing to prevent it when you have the chance.

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Wikkiwallana
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Postby Wikkiwallana » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:23 pm

North Stradia wrote:
Tlaceceyaya wrote:It's not punishment. Everyone is taxed, with exceptions such as those who are too poor. It's simply that the wealthy can afford to pay more, so they are taxed more. The poor cannot afford to pay as much, so they aren't taxed as much.

Taxation is theft.

Argument by assertion is theft.
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Geilinor
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Postby Geilinor » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:23 pm

Salamanderston wrote:
Mike the Progressive wrote:I don't have a problem paying more taxes. I don't like the 1% versus 99% rhetoric. Wealthy people should pay more, but not just because they are wealthy.


My family believes in a flat tax system, everyone pays the same taxes regardless of personal wealth.


Most flat tax systems in practice have thresholds below which no tax is paid. Flat tax systems can exist with social welfare programs, for example in Iceland. Flat tax systems generally only receive approval when they have an element of progressivity.
Last edited by Geilinor on Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:23 pm

Thafoo wrote:
Salamanderston wrote:
Which then goes to a drug addict who then spends his welfare check on cocaine.

Because we all know people who get welfare spend their money so wisely. . . .

J.K. Rowling sure did.


So did my mom and here is a shock. My sister and I have used it and probably never will.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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