Scottish Independance. Great Idea or No Go?

[The UK in Exile]

Where's the Imperialism again?

The fact that Scotland's currently part of the United Kingdom.

they joined of their own free will. they stay of their own free will.

[South Asia Minor]

The fact that Scotland's currently part of the United Kingdom.

they joined of their own free will. they stay of their own free will.

They did not join of their own free will.

[The UK in Exile]

they joined of their own free will. they stay of their own free will.

They did not join of their own free will.

complaining Scotsmen, I'm shocked and amazed. explain how the legitimate, native, rulers of a nation deciding its course is imperialism exactly?

[South Asia Minor]

They did not join of their own free will.

complaining Scotsmen, I'm shocked and amazed. explain how the legitimate, native, rulers of a nation deciding its course is imperialism exactly?

The native rulers, ie the elite aristocracy, were bought. The government was given to Westminster to ultimately establish that rosey rule by London and the home counties I was talking about earlier. I wouldn't call that the Scottish joining of their own free will, but that may just be me being idealistic Fenian scum.

[Ostroeuropa]

complaining Scotsmen, I'm shocked and amazed. explain how the legitimate, native, rulers of a nation deciding its course is imperialism exactly?

The native rulers, ie the elite aristocracy, were bought. The government was given to Westminster to ultimately establish that rosey rule by London and the home counties I was talking about earlier. I wouldn't call that the Scottish joining of their own free will, but that may just be me being idealistic Fenian scum.

It's pointed out in the same link that it's also argued they weren't bought. The money sent was only sent to people who would be losing their jobs as a result of the merger. It's a golden parachute. You'll also notice that the number of people allegedly bought isn't anywhere near enough to secure a majority, and most of those "Bought" were not even voting members.
But whatever helps you pretend the Scots are being oppressed, right?

[The UK in Exile]

complaining Scotsmen, I'm shocked and amazed. explain how the legitimate, native, rulers of a nation deciding its course is imperialism exactly?

The native rulers, ie the elite aristocracy, were bought. The government was given to Westminster to ultimately establish that rosey rule by London and the home counties I was talking about earlier. I wouldn't call that the Scottish joining of their own free will, but that may just be me being idealistic Fenian scum.

Seems like you should be campaigning againsts Scot's Nobility then, rather than the Union, since that appears to be the root cause of the problem. the worst thing you can say about Westminster is that it placed more value on Scotland than the scots apparently did.

[Ostroeuropa]

The native rulers, ie the elite aristocracy, were bought. The government was given to Westminster to ultimately establish that rosey rule by London and the home counties I was talking about earlier. I wouldn't call that the Scottish joining of their own free will, but that may just be me being idealistic Fenian scum.

Seems like you should be campaigning againsts Scot's Nobility then, rather than the Union, since that appears to be the root cause of the problem. the worst thing you can say about Westminster is that it placed more value on Scotland than the scots apparently did.

If you count the votes and the cash sent, apparently scotlands independence is worth 187ish pounds to scotsmen.

Ofcourse not every voting member was given the cash.
Nor were many of them.
It was about 3 of them. Ones who also held offices that were about to be abolished.
Don't blame the English because the Scots government was so incompetent that they can't record donations/funds etc and for what purpose they were given/received. Hell, the incompetence of the Noble Scots is the entire reason they agreed to the union.
That can be admired. If Cameron went to the EU and said "Halp, I cannot into economies." and surrendered all national sovereignty, maybe we'd actually get out of this -bleep- recession

[Olivaero]

Of course it's meaningful, there's a god damned referendum. To simply stick your fingers in your ears and go, "lalala you just don't like us 'cos you're shit and you think it's our fault" is immature. This is not all about finding someone to blame, it's about self-government.
Oh, but wait, you've got some kind of notion that there is no "self", haven't you? That the Scots aren't actually a thing? They're just all British and should be damn well pleased about it, despite having the grounds, the support, and the recognition from Westminster to actually do something about it and vote their own independence?

I'm just saying there's no meaningful difference between Scotland and other areas that are not their own countries, Yes, everyone in the British isles is British, no getting away from that, British as a culture Is a mixture of English, welsh Scottish and to a lesser degree Irish. Why is pointing out the Obvious immature again? Because It's not like anyone in he Scottish independence party has ever blamed all of Scotlands troubles in the English... oh wait, it's been done in this very thread.

Yes, now they are. That's a great thing.

Whether or not you realise it I agree, It is a great thing, The UK is mature enough as a country to give constituent regions a vote on independence, even if I find the reasons for wanting independence idiotic.

The fact that Scotland's currently part of the United Kingdom.

If by this you mean "Scotland is now part of the United Kingdom because 300 years ago the Scottish wanted to be successful imperialists" then yes you are correct Scotland is part of the union because of imperialism, Because it shared the lust for an empire shared by a lot of European powers of the time.

That's their problem. I do not support it.

Ah well, looks like even if you get independence you'll still have some British authority figure to curse then eh?

No, we can already see in the fact that the Scots have a devolved parliament. In the fact that the Scots have held mass protests for over a century over that fact.

The Scottish devolved parliament is an exercise in federalism It's the same principle as having local councils, Mayors for some towns and the like. It recognizes that in some areas the local people have a better perspective on how to deal with local issues. This doesn't mean we are that culturally different in any way.

I don't believe I every said having different politics was culturally different.
Being culturally different is being culturally different.
Having different politics is having different politics.
Both of which make Scotland different from England, not that that needed pointing out, you just seem to be absorbed in your own fantasy world that I doubt even many senior Tories inhabit.

Well then who decides how big of a cultural difference is necessary to have an independent country made? and If being politically different were enough of a reason to form new countries then the map would be redrawn every time an election was held. Try again.

[Alimprad]

If the majority of the Scottish people were in favor (which I doubt is the case), I would let them go through with it.

I'm kind of maybe just a little in favor of Scottish independence, since I have an overall distaste for the UK. If Scotland had a useless, arbitrary monarchy I would probably have an equal dislike for them.

well wherever you come from im pretty sure i have a distaste for there just knowing you live there, so just get off your high horse and go back to scotland where u can get drunk.

[Alimprad]

Yes, i agree, if scotland wants to be a big boy and say "yeah, we're big boys, we're independant!" then thats fine, its just britains small as it is, though we're a powerful country, but scotland on its own would simply be a small pathetic in the shadow of giants (britian).
To conclude:
Silly scotland

So border size reflects the total worth of a country nowadays?

yes

[Alimprad]

Terrible, terrible idea.

Fun Fact: I have yet to meet anyone over here who disagrees with me. I have met no Scot who wants independence.

Are there any Scots on here who want independence? Do you have any reasons other than "Hurr durr 300 years of English oppression must end de durr."? Can I hear the them? I would appreciate it.

yes

i kinda believe that the people best equipped to make decisions for scotland are the people that live in scotland and that self-determination and the ability to make your own decisions and run your own country is inherently valuable. and it'd probably solve that whole west lothian crap too, whew! some people don't believe that thought and apparently wanting a countrys decisions to be made in that country makes me a crazy sectarian racist in ostroeuropas eyes or something.
no BRITIAN should have the choice and i say NO



it had to happen eventually, come on guys. you know the drill.

[Alimprad]

Why will you be doing that?

Why not? Why would Scotland becoming independent be a bad thing? I doubt that the vote in 2014 will pass but slagging off Salmond is ignoring the issue. Scottish independence wasn't his idea and won't disappear with his career.

y shoudn't it be?

[Alimprad]

Yes, i agree, if scotland wants to be a big boy and say "yeah, we're big boys, we're independant!" then thats fine, its just britains small as it is, though we're a powerful country, but scotland on its own would simply be a small pathetic in the shadow of giants (britian).
To conclude:
Silly scotland

Personally, I wouldn't want to be as big as Britain on the world stage. Britain is making an enemy of itself. Don't fancy that, ta. Be quite happy to not be a puffed up inflated "big boy" clinging onto memories of when we were important. Thanks.

well if you want to step down to a 2nd world country thats fine by me!

[Marcurix]

This again? Can we at least wait a month before we get back to this subject?

No, as I have said before, I would prefer Scotland remain in the Union.

[Polar Islandstates]

Personally, I wouldn't want to be as big as Britain on the world stage. Britain is making an enemy of itself. Don't fancy that, ta. Be quite happy to not be a puffed up inflated "big boy" clinging onto memories of when we were important. Thanks.

well if you want to step down to a 2nd world country thats fine by me!

Who said anything about 2nd world? Have a little think about how often scandinavian countries feature in the security council of the UN, or how often the world bows and listens to what they have to say on matters that don't concern them. Then look at how often they're targeted by foreign terrorism. Then look at their standard of life.

Then come back to me.

It's quite possible to be a successful country with a high quality of life without requiring you wave your ageing imperial appendage at the rest of the world three times a year.

[Free Detroit]

"It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!"

Declare Independence or start raping sheep like Wales.

Or, be a true Scotsman and do BOTH!

[Polar Islandstates]

I find the statement that scots are somehow fundamentally different to the rest of the british to be racist and offensive to me as a welshman and a briton, and as a european in favor of a USE. For one, it's simply untrue. For another, even if it were true, the implication that you can't get along with and live alongside people of a different culture without segregating yourselves should cause every civilized person to cringe.
The Scottish Seperatist movement is one based in anglophobia and a power mad scottish politician with a flair for seeming like he knows what he's talking about providing you don't look to hard.

And gay people want to get married to piss off the catholics? Or perhaps feminism has its base in hating men?
There was me thinking it was about equality.

Shocking as it may seem, the SNP don't hate the English, they hate the way that they perceive Scotland's interests aren't served by Westminster at all. To argue that its driven by hating the English would be to assume that England is the focus of the SNP - not something I've ever taken from a conversation with a member. Honestly, its Scotland, Scotland, Scotland. You can't shut them up about Scotland. It's in the acronym.

[Maddoxx]

I have many friends in England. I do not wish to create a border between us and require a passport when I visit them. I believe our social bonds are strong and will not be broken. I believe in Scotland's place in the United Kingdom. I believe we are Better Together.

[Tagmatium]

it had to happen eventually, come on guys. you know the drill.

I said I was going to start taking a count, but I forgot.

[Polar Islandstates]

I have many friends in England. I do not wish to create a border between us and require a passport when I visit them. I believe our social bonds are strong and will not be broken. I believe in Scotland's place in the United Kingdom. I believe we are Better Together.

Oh, don't be daft, please. We don't need passports to get between the UK and Ireland by land, sea, or sky; or indeed to get between the UK and the Channel Islands/Isle of Man (non EU) thanks to the Common Travel Area. They're not going to start digging a moat under Hadrian's Wall.

Were an independent Scotland to join the Schengen Area, then yes, this might lead to a border of some sort being established. But as far as I'm aware, the Common Travel Area opt-out would apply to both post-UK parts of the country, and thus entry to the EU for Scotland would not require enforced entry to the Schengen Area also.

[Marcurix]

Were an independent Scotland to join the Schengen Area, then yes, this might lead to a border of some sort being established. But as far as I'm aware, the Common Travel Area opt-out would apply to both post-UK parts of the country, and thus entry to the EU for Scotland would not require enforced entry to the Schengen Area also.

That's up for debate, given there seems to be some confusion on whether Scotland would retain EU membership or not after separating from the UK.

Having to renegotiate may mean having to lose some opt-outs the UK has, or it may not. No one seems to be sure. Though as far as I was aware tradition was a new state would have to reapply for any organization the state it seceded from was a part of, it would not inherit it outright.

[Camelza]

As much as I like Britain as it is, I believe that every of these groups of people calling themselfes "nations" should have the right to decide what it's best for them and if the Scots think that they should have total control of the oil that is next to Scotland, then it's their right to do so. ...plus, despite the modern equal treatment, Scotland was mistreated greatly by her majesty's government prior to WWII, regarding infastructures and education mostly.

But seriously, change the union, don't tear it up.

[Polar Islandstates]

Were an independent Scotland to join the Schengen Area, then yes, this might lead to a border of some sort being established. But as far as I'm aware, the Common Travel Area opt-out would apply to both post-UK parts of the country, and thus entry to the EU for Scotland would not require enforced entry to the Schengen Area also.

That's up for debate, given there seems to be some confusion on whether Scotland would retain EU membership or not after separating from the UK.

Having to renegotiate may mean having to lose some opt-outs the UK has, or it may not. No one seems to be sure. Though as far as I was aware tradition was a new state would have to reapply for any organization the state it seceded from was a part of, it would not inherit it outright.

There is confusion on that issue, yes, but either way it is my understanding that being a member of the Schengen area is not a requirement of EU accession per se, but is rather a matter negotiated by each prospective new nation on an individual basis. Either way, it's hard to imagine a future where someone could fly from Edinburgh to Paris with no problems but would need a passport to nip to Leeds and back.

Woe betide Berwick, were that the case.

[Maddoxx]

Its the great idea for Scottish Independence.I think so many people are also want a freedom. Its really awesome post for all Scottish people.

[Camelza]

Its the great idea for Scottish Independence.I think so many people are also want a freedom. Its really awesome post for all Scottish people.

"All your base are belong to us."