Scottish Independance. Great Idea or No Go?

[Densaner]

Yes, i agree, if scotland wants to be a big boy and say "yeah, we're big boys, we're independant!" then thats fine, its just britains small as it is, though we're a powerful country, but scotland on its own would simply be a small pathetic in the shadow of giants (britian).
To conclude:
Silly scotland

Personally, I wouldn't want to be as big as Britain on the world stage. Britain is making an enemy of itself. Don't fancy that, ta. Be quite happy to not be a puffed up inflated "big boy" clinging onto memories of when we were important. Thanks.

Britain isn't big on the world stage at all. Britain is like a lowly cipher hanging around the boss Uncle Sam.

[Khanastan]

It is a bad thing, as it will cripple our economy in a matter of years. I've already explained why in this thread.

More to the point, what makes it a good thing?

What makes it a bad thing? Where's the evidence that "it will cripple our economy"? Scotland was independent for 900 years before 1707. Unionist scare stories don't work on me.

Scotland's viable sources of income when we are independent will be oil, which will be gone in 20 years, whiskey exports, pitiful on the scale of a nation, tourism, not enough either, eco-power, facilities are still under construction.

What we need to manage is healthcare, military, education, social policy, roads and transport and every other policy that we will now have full control over.

There is already a shortage of jobs, and we will lose even more if we cut our ties with the UK. More spending.

Incomes < expenses = economic downfall.

Now, lets hear your reason to why it will be a good thing, because "Why not?" isn't a good enough answer. And not every opposing story you hear is a scare story mate.

[Rio Cana]

Yes, i agree, if scotland wants to be a big boy and say "yeah, we're big boys, we're independant!" then thats fine, its just britains small as it is, though we're a powerful country, but scotland on its own would simply be a small pathetic in the shadow of giants (britian).
To conclude:
Silly scotland

Not this gain. Remember the story of David and Goliath. Scotland can do the same has the below two nations.

The following two Davids who have held off two neighboring Goliath s.

Nation 1- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3GEe1Gt_Ls

Nation 2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-IY0rRYsQzw

[Densaner]

What makes it a bad thing? Where's the evidence that "it will cripple our economy"? Scotland was independent for 900 years before 1707. Unionist scare stories don't work on me.

Scotland's viable sources of income when we are independent will be oil, which will be gone in 20 years, whiskey exports, pitiful on the scale of a nation, tourism, not enough either, eco-power, facilities are still under construction.

What we need to manage is healthcare, military, education, social policy, roads and transport and every other policy that we will now have full control over.

There is already a shortage of jobs, and we will lose even more if we cut our ties with the UK. More spending.

Incomes < expenses = economic downfall.

Now, lets hear your reason to why it will be a good thing, because "Why not?" isn't a good enough answer. And not every opposing story you hear is a scare story mate.

If Scotland becomes Independent we could join the UN, EU and other international organisations. I noticed in a previous post that you argued that Scotland should get more money from Westminster. Great idea. Then they can really have a basis for calling us subsidy junkies. Military policy would only be available if we became Independent.

Is Scotland really doing that well at the moment? The economic priorities of the present government are based in Southern England. The idiotic austerity policies are already being castigated by many organisations on an international level. It's likely that Britain will lose it's AAA credit rating because of it.

The current Westminster policies are to blame for the parlous state of the Scotland's economy. Going to George Osborne with a begging bowl doesn't sound very wise or practical to me.

[Khanastan]

Scotland's viable sources of income when we are independent will be oil, which will be gone in 20 years, whiskey exports, pitiful on the scale of a nation, tourism, not enough either, eco-power, facilities are still under construction.

What we need to manage is healthcare, military, education, social policy, roads and transport and every other policy that we will now have full control over.

There is already a shortage of jobs, and we will lose even more if we cut our ties with the UK. More spending.

Incomes < expenses = economic downfall.

Now, lets hear your reason to why it will be a good thing, because "Why not?" isn't a good enough answer. And not every opposing story you hear is a scare story mate.

If Scotland becomes Independent we could join the UN, EU and other international organisations. I noticed in a previous post that you argued that Scotland should get more money from Westminster. Great idea. Then they can really have a basis for calling us subsidy junkies. Military policy would only be available if we became Independent.

Is Scotland really doing that well at the moment? The economic priorities of the present government are based in Southern England. The idiotic austerity policies are already being castigated by many organisations on an international level. It's likely that Britain will lose it's AAA credit rating because of it.

The current Westminster policies are to blame for the parlous state of the Scotland's economy. Going to George Osborne with a begging bowl doesn't sound very wise or practical to me.

Yes, because the EU and the UN is doing wonders for the UK as things stand.

It's a matter of swallowing pride and placing substance above it when we realize that we need more money. The UK has to prioritize over the entire union, so we will get blown over by places that are more in need than us. If we raise the point to Westminster though, we can get opinions to change without having to go out on a wing and a prayer with independence.

We could always meet in the middle. Instead of petitioning for independence, or asking for more funds, we could ask to simply have the ability to govern our own economic policies. That way, we keep Westminster's support, and we have more control over our economy.

[Densaner]

If Scotland becomes Independent we could join the UN, EU and other international organisations. I noticed in a previous post that you argued that Scotland should get more money from Westminster. Great idea. Then they can really have a basis for calling us subsidy junkies. Military policy would only be available if we became Independent.

Is Scotland really doing that well at the moment? The economic priorities of the present government are based in Southern England. The idiotic austerity policies are already being castigated by many organisations on an international level. It's likely that Britain will lose it's AAA credit rating because of it.

The current Westminster policies are to blame for the parlous state of the Scotland's economy. Going to George Osborne with a begging bowl doesn't sound very wise or practical to me.

Yes, because the EU and the UN is doing wonders for the UK as things stand.

It's a matter of swallowing pride and place substance above it when we realize that we need more money. The UK has to prioritize over the entire union, so we will get blown over by places that are more in need than us. If we raise the point to Westminster though, we can get opinions to change without having to go out on a wing and a prayer with independence.

We could always meet in the middle. Instead of petitioning for independence, or asking for more funds, we could ask to simply have the ability to govern our own economic policies. That way, we keep Westminster's support, and we have more control over our economy.

You're living in a dream world. Please Mr Osborne can I have some more? The fact that Scotland would be a member of those organisations would raise our status much more than your begging bowl strategy. Where is our bargaining chip? Scotland's representation in the Commons is going down.

You seem to be missing the point. Most Scots want the Scottish Parliament to have much more power. Up to the point of fiscal autonomy. If that happened we would be a push and a shove off being Independent anyway. I would have more sympathy if the unionist parties offered an alternative settlement for Scotland. All I hear is silence.

[The UK in Exile]

Yes, because the EU and the UN is doing wonders for the UK as things stand.

It's a matter of swallowing pride and place substance above it when we realize that we need more money. The UK has to prioritize over the entire union, so we will get blown over by places that are more in need than us. If we raise the point to Westminster though, we can get opinions to change without having to go out on a wing and a prayer with independence.

We could always meet in the middle. Instead of petitioning for independence, or asking for more funds, we could ask to simply have the ability to govern our own economic policies. That way, we keep Westminster's support, and we have more control over our economy.

You're living in a dream world. Please Mr Osborne can I have some more? The fact that Scotland would be a member of those organisations would raise our status much more than your begging bowl strategy. Where is our bargaining chip? Scotland's representation in the Commons is going down.

You seem to be missing the point. Most Scots want the Scottish Parliament to have much more power. Up to the point of fiscal autonomy. If that happened we would be a push and a shove off being Independent anyway. I would have more sympathy if the unionist parties offered an alternative settlement for Scotland. All I hear is silence.

Unless Scotland is planning to run its own Currency, your not going to get Fiscal autonomy anyway. your either going to be following the ECB or the Bank of England.

[South Asia Minor]

If Scotland becomes Independent we could join the UN, EU and other international organisations. I noticed in a previous post that you argued that Scotland should get more money from Westminster. Great idea. Then they can really have a basis for calling us subsidy junkies. Military policy would only be available if we became Independent.

Is Scotland really doing that well at the moment? The economic priorities of the present government are based in Southern England. The idiotic austerity policies are already being castigated by many organisations on an international level. It's likely that Britain will lose it's AAA credit rating because of it.

The current Westminster policies are to blame for the parlous state of the Scotland's economy. Going to George Osborne with a begging bowl doesn't sound very wise or practical to me.

Yes, because the EU and the UN is doing wonders for the UK as things stand.

It's a matter of swallowing pride and placing substance above it when we realize that we need more money. The UK has to prioritize over the entire union, so we will get blown over by places that are more in need than us. If we raise the point to Westminster though, we can get opinions to change without having to go out on a wing and a prayer with independence.

That's, ah, almost as speculative as independence is.

[Densaner]

You're living in a dream world. Please Mr Osborne can I have some more? The fact that Scotland would be a member of those organisations would raise our status much more than your begging bowl strategy. Where is our bargaining chip? Scotland's representation in the Commons is going down.

You seem to be missing the point. Most Scots want the Scottish Parliament to have much more power. Up to the point of fiscal autonomy. If that happened we would be a push and a shove off being Independent anyway. I would have more sympathy if the unionist parties offered an alternative settlement for Scotland. All I hear is silence.

Unless Scotland is planning to run its own Currency, your not going to get Fiscal autonomy anyway. your either going to be following the ECB or the Bank of England.

Thanks for telling us what we won't be getting. Fiscal autonomy does not require a separate currency. US States have fiscal autonomy. Does every state have a separate currency?

[The UK in Exile]

Unless Scotland is planning to run its own Currency, your not going to get Fiscal autonomy anyway. your either going to be following the ECB or the Bank of England.

Thanks for telling us what we won't be getting. Fiscal autonomy does not require a separate currency. US States have fiscal autonomy. Does every state have a separate currency?

whoops, I meant monetary autonomy. if US states have them, why do you need to leave the union exactly?

[Densaner]

Thanks for telling us what we won't be getting. Fiscal autonomy does not require a separate currency. US States have fiscal autonomy. Does every state have a separate currency?

whoops, I meant monetary autonomy. if US states have them, why do you need to leave the union exactly.

I'm making the point that most Scots want much more power for the Parliament. Unionists are being really stupid in ignoring that. I support Independence though. If they want the Union to remain there will have to be major constitutional change. Either Independence or Devo Max.

[The UK in Exile]

whoops, I meant monetary autonomy. if US states have them, why do you need to leave the union exactly.

I'm making the point that most Scots want much more power for the Parliament. Unionists are being really stupid in ignoring that. I support Independence though. If they want the Union to remain there will have to be major constitutional change. Either Independence or Devo Max.

stupid and in the lead beats clever and behind.

[Densaner]

I'm making the point that most Scots want much more power for the Parliament. Unionists are being really stupid in ignoring that. I support Independence though. If they want the Union to remain there will have to be major constitutional change. Either Independence or Devo Max.

stupid and in the lead beats clever and behind.

Yeah...

[South Asia Minor]

I'm making the point that most Scots want much more power for the Parliament. Unionists are being really stupid in ignoring that. I support Independence though. If they want the Union to remain there will have to be major constitutional change. Either Independence or Devo Max.

stupid and in the lead beats clever and behind.

Well, at least you admit it...

[The UK in Exile]

stupid and in the lead beats clever and behind.

Yeah...

just saying, they seem to be in the lead without paying any attention to that thing your on about.

Well, at least you admit it...

Ain't no substitute for Victory.

[Densaner]

Yeah...

just saying, they seem to be in the lead without paying any attention to that thing your on about.

Yeah and that is why people support Independence.

[The UK in Exile]

just saying, they seem to be in the lead without paying any attention to that thing your on about.

Yeah and that is why people support Independence.

except they don't, the only support for Scottish independence is in England. You should have let us vote.

[Densaner]

Yeah and that is why people support Independence.

except they don't, the only support for Scottish independence is in England. You should have let us vote.

"Most voters appear to back the “middle way” option of a more powerful Scottish Parliament. In similar findings to previous surveys, the new SSA poll shows a total of 56 per cent of people think MSPs should make the “most important decisions for Scotland” on tax, rising to 64 per cent on benefits.

Meanwhile, 67 per cent of people said Scotland should either make all decisions for Scotland, or it should make all decisions apart from defence and foreign affairs".

I don't care what English people think. They sure as hell don't care about us.

[Rio Cana]

Scotland can look toward Latin America and the Caribbean. Before some shake there heads, today on the news they were saying that the EU in trying to get out of its economic problems is looking at Latin America and the Caribbean. Scotland would stand to gain since eeryone in Latin America and the Caribbean like the Scots.

News Story - http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/latam-diplomacy.m0l

[Olivaero]

I'd say that makes about as much difference as the United States not being a "country" but merely a Union. We, the inhabitants of the British Isles are British. I may also be English But then I'm also a Yorkshiremen and A Doncastarian. So to can a Scot be British and Scottish at the same time, the Us vs them bullshit is a manufactured image of England and English men as a whole simply because our part of the union has the richest city in it. That country called Scotland exists as much as the country of Texas and now because times are rough they want to fuck off and take all the oil that's geographically closest with them. Even though they have more representation than a good deal of England does and a good deal of them (not all of them mind you) but a good deal of them whine about how oppressed they are while doing it.They are part of a Union which has one of the oldest still existing Democracies in the world and they joined it to build an empire and unfortunately we did.

So now when times are hard it's "grrr up yours ye posh English Bastards!!" Seriously, grow up and stop pretending than long gone divisions are still meaningful. We should be working together towards a more united world, not a more divided one.

It's not a pretend. It's never been a pretend. The Scottish independence movement exists and you cannot deny that.
Scotland is a separate nation with a separate culture and separate ideals and it always has been. It is not comparable to a city. It is not comparable to a region, particularly not a region that is undeniably English. If you have so much respect for democracy, then you would respect the fact that the reason this debate exists at all is because of the fact that an independent Scotland is viable and there is a referendum in 2014. You seem to be wrapped up in a fantasy world where the Union must exist because it has done so far, and we should all suck it up. Wanting independence is not immature.

I'm not against a united world. I fully support the EU and the UN, or at least the concepts behind their existence. I am against an imperialistic monarchic union that imposes its culture, its language and its politics on a nation that has never considered itself "one" with such a union. The idea of an independent Scotland is not a 300 year old relic, it has always existed. It's only just round the recognition it needs from that union.

So? the Scottish independence movement exists? It doesn't mean it is right or a good thing or that it is meaningful. What people see and here is what they are told by nationalist politicians like Salmond The English are no doubt a fine scapegoat but they would be that scapegoat whether Scotland had been an independent country or not. Thats what really matters here it's all about having someone to blame your troubles on, and what better to do that than the people who are quite far away from you?

" I am against an imperialistic monarchic union that imposes its culture, its language and its politics on a nation that has never considered itself "one" with such a union" This is a false hood plain and simple. We are a democratic Union because you get to vote in elections both Nationally and Locally and we're also giving you an independence when a party that demanded it was voted into your local legislature... Where's the Imperialism again? As for the monarchy, guess what the SNP want to keep?! Oh and as for never considering themselves one I guess we'll see that in the referendum but considering the stats Ostroeuropa posted earlier I doubt there's any basis to that claim. Having different politics is not the same as culturally different. Hence why while there's support for different policy making in some areas there isn't a great deal for full independence.

[Ostroeuropa]

I find the statement that scots are somehow fundamentally different to the rest of the british to be racist and offensive to me as a welshman and a briton, and as a european in favor of a USE. For one, it's simply untrue. For another, even if it were true, the implication that you can't get along with and live alongside people of a different culture without segregating yourselves should cause every civilized person to cringe.
The Scottish Seperatist movement is one based in anglophobia and a power mad scottish politician with a flair for seeming like he knows what he's talking about providing you don't look to hard.

[Olivaero]

I find the statement that scots are somehow fundamentally different to the rest of the british to be racist and offensive to me as a welshman and a briton, and as a european in favor of a USE. For one, it's simply untrue. For another, even if it were true, the implication that you can't get along with and live alongside people of a different culture without segregating yourselves should cause every civilized person to cringe.
The Scottish Seperatist movement is one based in anglophobia and a power mad scottish politician with a flair for seeming like he knows what he's talking about providing you don't look to hard.

^ Agreed with in it's entirety.

[Tagmatium]

I find the statement that scots are somehow fundamentally different to the rest of the british to be racist and offensive to me as a welshman and a briton, and as a european in favor of a USE. For one, it's simply untrue. For another, even if it were true, the implication that you can't get along with and live alongside people of a different culture without segregating yourselves should cause every civilized person to cringe.
The Scottish Seperatist movement is one based in anglophobia and a power mad scottish politician with a flair for seeming like he knows what he's talking about providing you don't look to hard.

However, there has been a Scottish National Party since 1934 and a desire for independence amongst a certain segment of the population since before then. I don't think that you can claim it's due to a "power mad Scottish politician".

[Ostroeuropa]

I find the statement that scots are somehow fundamentally different to the rest of the british to be racist and offensive to me as a welshman and a briton, and as a european in favor of a USE. For one, it's simply untrue. For another, even if it were true, the implication that you can't get along with and live alongside people of a different culture without segregating yourselves should cause every civilized person to cringe.
The Scottish Seperatist movement is one based in anglophobia and a power mad scottish politician with a flair for seeming like he knows what he's talking about providing you don't look to hard.

However, there has been a Scottish National Party since 1934 and a desire for independence amongst a certain segment of the population since before then. I don't think that you can claim it's due to a "power mad Scottish politician".

There is always a power mad scottish politician. But your right, I should have said the recent upswing is due to him.

[South Asia Minor]

It's not a pretend. It's never been a pretend. The Scottish independence movement exists and you cannot deny that.
Scotland is a separate nation with a separate culture and separate ideals and it always has been. It is not comparable to a city. It is not comparable to a region, particularly not a region that is undeniably English. If you have so much respect for democracy, then you would respect the fact that the reason this debate exists at all is because of the fact that an independent Scotland is viable and there is a referendum in 2014. You seem to be wrapped up in a fantasy world where the Union must exist because it has done so far, and we should all suck it up. Wanting independence is not immature.

I'm not against a united world. I fully support the EU and the UN, or at least the concepts behind their existence. I am against an imperialistic monarchic union that imposes its culture, its language and its politics on a nation that has never considered itself "one" with such a union. The idea of an independent Scotland is not a 300 year old relic, it has always existed. It's only just round the recognition it needs from that union.

So? the Scottish independence movement exists? It doesn't mean it is right or a good thing or that it is meaningful. What people see and here is what they are told by nationalist politicians like Salmond The English are no doubt a fine scapegoat but they would be that scapegoat whether Scotland had been an independent country or not. Thats what really matters here it's all about having someone to blame your troubles on, and what better to do that than the people who are quite far away from you?

" I am against an imperialistic monarchic union that imposes its culture, its language and its politics on a nation that has never considered itself "one" with such a union" This is a false hood plain and simple. We are a democratic Union because you get to vote in elections both Nationally and Locally and we're also giving you an independence when a party that demanded it was voted into your local legislature... Where's the Imperialism again? As for the monarchy, guess what the SNP want to keep?! Oh and as for never considering themselves one I guess we'll see that in the referendum but considering the stats Ostroeuropa posted earlier I doubt there's any basis to that claim. Having different politics is not the same as culturally different. Hence why while there's support for different policy making in some areas there isn't a great deal for full independence.

Christ.

So? the Scottish independence movement exists? It doesn't mean it is right or a good thing or that it is meaningful. What people see and here is what they are told by nationalist politicians like Salmond The English are no doubt a fine scapegoat but they would be that scapegoat whether Scotland had been an independent country or not. Thats what really matters here it's all about having someone to blame your troubles on, and what better to do that than the people who are quite far away from you?

Of course it's meaningful, there's a god damned referendum. To simply stick your fingers in your ears and go, "lalala you just don't like us 'cos you're shit and you think it's our fault" is immature. This is not all about finding someone to blame, it's about self-government.
Oh, but wait, you've got some kind of notion that there is no "self", haven't you? That the Scots aren't actually a thing? They're just all British and should be damn well pleased about it, despite having the grounds, the support, and the recognition from Westminster to actually do something about it and vote their own independence?

This is a false hood plain and simple. We are a democratic Union because you get to vote in elections both Nationally and Locally and we're also giving you an independence when a party that demanded it was voted into your local legislature...

Yes, now they are. That's a great thing.

Where's the Imperialism again?

The fact that Scotland's currently part of the United Kingdom.

As for the monarchy, guess what the SNP want to keep?!

That's their problem. I do not support it.

Oh and as for never considering themselves one I guess we'll see that in the referendum

No, we can already see in the fact that the Scots have a devolved parliament. In the fact that the Scots have held mass protests for over a century over that fact.

but considering the stats Ostroeuropa posted earlier I doubt there's any basis to that claim. Having different politics is not the same as culturally different. Hence why while there's support for different policy making in some areas there isn't a great deal for full independence.

I don't believe I ever said having different politics was culturally different.
Being culturally different is being culturally different.
Having different politics is having different politics.
Both of which make Scotland different from England, not that that needed pointing out, you just seem to be absorbed in your own fantasy world that I doubt even many senior Tories inhabit.

I find the statement that scots are somehow fundamentally different to the rest of the british to be racist and offensive to me as a welshman and a briton, and as a european in favor of a USE. For one, it's simply untrue. For another, even if it were true, the implication that you can't get along with and live alongside people of a different culture without segregating yourselves should cause every civilized person to cringe.
The Scottish Seperatist movement is one based in anglophobia and a power mad scottish politician with a flair for seeming like he knows what he's talking about providing you don't look to hard.

For onesies the Scottish "Seperatist" movement existed long before Alex Salmond and it will exist long after he's gone.
For twosies, it is not segregation or Anglophobia, it is the desire for self-government. A perfectly legitimate desire considering the political differences made all too obvious by the Thatcher years.
And if you're somehow offended by that by being Welsh, I'm afraid you perplex me.