Scottish Independance. Great Idea or No Go?

[Ostroeuropa]

I fucked up with that one by the way. It only shows google trends not reporting. Please check the edited link which also shows reporting and you'll notice your point no longer stands.

I don't see the difference. Now you have a little orange line that sort of follows the blue one?

No really, let's discuss all the reporting/debate that's going on right now with other issues. Most of it is basically selectively published lies, but there's REPORTING!

1. I disagree that the majority is lies. Some lies are published by both sides.
2. I'm willing to discuss it.
3. If the scottish people are able to be lied to so easily and duped, then independence isn't the biggest issue for scotland, it's the education system.
The difference is the added news report tab thingies. (technical term.)

[Dimar]

If the Scottish want independence, they should get it no matter what. Nobody should be allowed to stop a group of people from leaving a country they don't want to be a part of. However I doubt that their economy will be well-functioning and that they'll become highly vulnerable to virtually everything... Also Labour and the Lib Dems would be screwed in all UK elections bacause of the FPTP voting system.

[Souseiseki]

Damn those politicians, always talking about things that matter to them and waffling on about their party manifestos. How dare they, right?

I agree it's to be expected. But that doesn't alter the fact that only one side has been using it's rhetoric for a while and thats when support for independence grew. Support for unity began crushing their arguements as soon as reporting and debate began.

if you're going to complain that unionists weren't also pumping their rhetoric during 2011/2012 you either have no idea what you're talking about or you're lying.

it's kind of like you're acting that scottish independence could only be a issue people are googling because the SNP owns that phrase and decided to pump it out. the OP also uses the term scottish independence even though they're pretty unionist.

[The Victorian Empire]

If Palau can be a country, Scotland can be a country.

[Ostroeuropa]

If the Scottish want independence, they should get it no matter what. Nobody should be allowed to stop a group of people from leaving a country they don't want to be a part of. However I doubt that their economy will be well-functioning and that they'll become highly vulnerable to virtually everything... Also Labour and the Lib Dems would be screwed in all UK elections bacause of the FPTP voting system.

Under/Italicized:
Probably not by the way. The conservatives are in real trouble with the aging population etc.

[Souseiseki]

3. If the scottish people are able to be lied to so easily and duped, then independence isn't the biggest issue for scotland, it's the education system.
The difference is the added news report tab thingies. (technical term.)

random question, how much do you think benefit fraud costs the country? off the top of your head, from all the reporting and debate you've seen.

[Ostroeuropa]

3. If the scottish people are able to be lied to so easily and duped, then independence isn't the biggest issue for scotland, it's the education system.
The difference is the added news report tab thingies. (technical term.)

random question, how much do you think benefit fraud costs the country?

I'm fairly sure it's negligable compared to the benefit of having a lot of poor people spend money on essential goods and services.
I'm quite sure that benefits are good for the economy.
Some benefit fraud probably occurs, and some measures should be taken to stop it or make it difficult, but given the choice of two fraudsters being caught and also one non-fraudster getting shafted i'd prefer to let all 3 go about their business. At a certain point that breaks down, but i don't know when that point is. I just know we aren't there yet.
I tend not to take figures that involve actual cash at all seriously when reported on. Essentially they may as well use:
Negligable - Some - A lot - A fuckton - An economies worth - More than we have

[Zokoria]

Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland should remain British, because it would be so confusing and mind-boggling to see them independent.

Ireland, however, is okay as a nation though.

[South Asia Minor]

The fact that right now there's a country called Scotland. It's right there sitting on top of Northumberland. There's a border with signs and everything, it's pretty neat.
They're not looking to grab or conquer any land, like all your examples of long since defunct states seem to be implying. Scotland isn't even a long since defunct state, There are Scottish people, there is a Scottish government, there is a Scottish nation right here, right now.

Scotland is a "constituent country" of the United Kingdom, and at the moment a lot of them would rather just be "Scotland".

I'd say that makes about as much difference as the United States not being a "country" but merely a Union. We, the inhabitants of the British Isles are British. I may also be English But then I'm also a Yorkshiremen and A Doncastarian. So to can a Scot be British and Scottish at the same time, the Us vs them bullshit is a manufactured image of England and English men as a whole simply because our part of the union has the richest city in it. That country called Scotland exists as much as the country of Texas and now because times are rough they want to fuck off and take all the oil that's geographically closest with them. Even though they have more representation than a good deal of England does and a good deal of them (not all of them mind you) but a good deal of them whine about how oppressed they are while doing it.They are part of a Union which has one of the oldest still existing Democracies in the world and they joined it to build an empire and unfortunately we did.

So now when times are hard it's "grrr up yours ye posh English Bastards!!" Seriously, grow up and stop pretending than long gone divisions are still meaningful. We should be working together towards a more united world, not a more divided one.

It's not a pretend. It's never been a pretend. The Scottish independence movement exists and you cannot deny that.
Scotland is a separate nation with a separate culture and separate ideals and it always has been. It is not comparable to a city. It is not comparable to a region, particularly not a region that is undeniably English. If you have so much respect for democracy, then you would respect the fact that the reason this debate exists at all is because of the fact that an independent Scotland is viable and there is a referendum in 2014. You seem to be wrapped up in a fantasy world where the Union must exist because it has done so far, and we should all suck it up. Wanting independence is not immature.

I'm not against a united world. I fully support the EU and the UN, or at least the concepts behind their existence. I am against an imperialistic monarchic union that imposes its culture, its language and its politics on a nation that has never considered itself "one" with such a union. The idea of an independent Scotland is not a 300 year old relic, it has always existed. It's only just round the recognition it needs from that union.

[Kleomentia]

Not a good idea. And what's up with making a world home to millions of tiny nations anyway?

[Khanastan]

Terrible, terrible idea.

Fun Fact: I have yet to meet anyone over here who disagrees with me. I have met no Scot who wants independence.

Are there any Scots on here who want independence? Do you have any reasons other than "Hurr durr 300 years of English oppression must end de durr."? Can I hear the them? I would appreciate it.

[Forenos]

This decision relies solely on what the Scotish people want. If they wish to be free then they should be. Freedom is a very precious right granted to us by God. If they seek to govern themselves and be united as a Scotish people and finaly have a national identity then so be it. As far as defence goes, this isn't the 1800's anymore countires no longer invade other countires just for land. Im sure Scotland would be well equiped to defend themselves not to metnion no doubt they would be in the United Nations. So if Freedom is what the Scotish want then freedom is what the Scotish deserve.

[Alimprad]

This decision relies solely on what the Scotish people want. If they wish to be free then they should be. Freedom is a very precious right granted to us by God. If they seek to govern themselves and be united as a Scotish people and finaly have a national identity then so be it. As far as defence goes, this isn't the 1800's anymore countires no longer invade other countires just for land. Im sure Scotland would be well equiped to defend themselves not to metnion no doubt they would be in the United Nations. So if Freedom is what the Scotish want then freedom is what the Scotish deserve.

Yes, i agree, if scotland wants to be a big boy and say "yeah, we're big boys, we're independant!" then thats fine, its just britains small as it is, though we're a powerful country, but scotland on its own would simply be a small pathetic in the shadow of giants (britian).
To conclude:
Silly scotland

[Phocidaea]

If the majority of the Scottish people were in favor (which I doubt is the case), I would let them go through with it.

I'm kind of maybe just a little in favor of Scottish independence, since I have an overall distaste for the UK. If Scotland had a useless, arbitrary monarchy I would probably have an equal dislike for them.

[Khanastan]

This decision relies solely on what the Scotish people want. If they wish to be free then they should be. Freedom is a very precious right granted to us by God. If they seek to govern themselves and be united as a Scotish people and finaly have a national identity then so be it. As far as defence goes, this isn't the 1800's anymore countires no longer invade other countires just for land. Im sure Scotland would be well equiped to defend themselves not to metnion no doubt they would be in the United Nations. So if Freedom is what the Scotish want then freedom is what the Scotish deserve.

Yes, i agree, if scotland wants to be a big boy and say "yeah, we're big boys, we're independant!" then thats fine, its just britains small as it is, though we're a powerful country, but scotland on its own would simply be a small pathetic in the shadow of giants (britian).
To conclude:
Silly scotland

So border size reflects the total worth of a country nowadays?

[Kleomentia]

Yes, i agree, if scotland wants to be a big boy and say "yeah, we're big boys, we're independant!" then thats fine, its just britains small as it is, though we're a powerful country, but scotland on its own would simply be a small pathetic in the shadow of giants (britian).
To conclude:
Silly scotland

So border size reflects the total worth of a country nowadays?

Apparently. Ignorant if you ask me. And i do really say that for Alimprad.

[Souseiseki]

Terrible, terrible idea.

Fun Fact: I have yet to meet anyone over here who disagrees with me. I have met no Scot who wants independence.

Are there any Scots on here who want independence? Do you have any reasons other than "Hurr durr 300 years of English oppression must end de durr."? Can I hear the them? I would appreciate it.

yes

i kinda believe that the people best equipped to make decisions for scotland are the people that live in scotland and that self-determination and the ability to make your own decisions and run your own country is inherently valuable. and it'd probably solve that whole west lothian crap too, whew! some people don't believe that thought and apparently wanting a countrys decisions to be made in that country makes me a crazy sectarian racist in ostroeuropas eyes or something.



it had to happen eventually, come on guys. you know the drill.

[Kleomentia]

Terrible, terrible idea.

Fun Fact: I have yet to meet anyone over here who disagrees with me. I have met no Scot who wants independence.

Are there any Scots on here who want independence? Do you have any reasons other than "Hurr durr 300 years of English oppression must end de durr."? Can I hear the them? I would appreciate it.

yes

i kinda believe that the people best equipped to make decisions for scotland are the people that live in scotland and that self-determination and the ability to make your own decisions and run your own country is inherently valuable. and it'd probably solve that whole west lothian crap too, whew! some people don't believe that thought and apparently wanting a countrys decisions to be made in that country makes me a crazy sectarian racist in ostroeuropas eyes or something.



it had to happen eventually, come on guys. you know the drill.

[Khanastan]

Terrible, terrible idea.

Fun Fact: I have yet to meet anyone over here who disagrees with me. I have met no Scot who wants independence.

Are there any Scots on here who want independence? Do you have any reasons other than "Hurr durr 300 years of English oppression must end de durr."? Can I hear the them? I would appreciate it.

yes

i kinda believe that the people best equipped to make decisions for scotland are the people that live in scotland and that self-determination and the ability to make your own decisions and run your own country is inherently valuable. and it'd probably solve that whole west lothian crap too, whew! some people don't believe that thought and apparently wanting a countrys decisions to be made in that country makes me a crazy sectarian racist in ostroeuropas eyes or something.

it had to happen eventually, come on guys. you know the drill.

Aye, so be it that Westminster makes a majority of the decisions for Scotland, and no doubt people would rather have a Scotland with a tighter control over it's own policies, but, do we really want to give our government at Holyrood more work? The way they ramble on about it now is as if they are constantly stretched to the end of their resources. No council owned facilities have enough supplies or a large enough budget to last them the year, the roads are disrepair and they insist that there are bigger fish to fry, blah, blah, same old, same old.

If we then go without Westminster's support and we have control of all of our policies, the problem gets worse. The first few years of independence will be a fiscal nightmare for the public sector. And the last thing that we need is Maggie Thatcher II, this time in a kilt.

With Westminster's support, we have done well for ourselves in the areas we have control over, namely, healthcare and education. Salmond, dare I say that he has done something good, has put any excess money he has into the growth of eco-power industries and improving infrastructure in the Highlands, both of these things are doing us good. Why throw that away just for the right to govern ourselves at a greater financial cost?

We shouldn't be petitioning for independence, we should be petitioning for more funds towards the Scottish Government. That is the way that we will truly make a positive change for the country.

And on the topic of immigration, though slightly irrelevant, there is an obvious and unavoidable racial tension over here. Quite a lot of people have taken up a 'They took our jobs!' mentality towards foreigners and, disgustingly, there are people who believe that people of Islamic religions are coming over here to rule the country. These people, especially the latter, are idiots. There are people with these mentalities voting for independence because they feel Salmond will change the immigration law for Scotland. Salmond is pro-immigration for the right reasons (declining birth rate, rising death rate, lowering population) and the policy will not change.

[Densaner]

A good idea. I'll be voting YES in 2014.

[Khanastan]

A good idea. I'll be voting YES in 2014.

Why will you be doing that?

[Densaner]

A good idea. I'll be voting YES in 2014.

Why will you be doing that?

Why not? Why would Scotland becoming independent be a bad thing? I doubt that the vote in 2014 will pass but slagging off Salmond is ignoring the issue. Scottish independence wasn't his idea and won't disappear with his career.

[Khanastan]

Why will you be doing that?

Why not? Why would Scotland becoming independent be a bad thing? I doubt that the vote in 2014 will pass but slagging off Salmond is ignoring the issue. Scottish independence wasn't his idea and won't disappear with his career.

It is a bad thing, as it will cripple our economy in a matter of years. I've already explained why in this thread.

More to the point, what makes it a good thing?

[Densaner]

Why not? Why would Scotland becoming independent be a bad thing? I doubt that the vote in 2014 will pass but slagging off Salmond is ignoring the issue. Scottish independence wasn't his idea and won't disappear with his career.

It is a bad thing, as it will cripple our economy in a matter of years. I've already explained why in this thread.

More to the point, what makes it a good thing?

What makes it a bad thing? Where's the evidence that "it will cripple our economy"? Scotland was independent for 900 years before 1707. Unionist scare stories don't work on me.

[Polar Islandstates]

Yes, i agree, if scotland wants to be a big boy and say "yeah, we're big boys, we're independant!" then thats fine, its just britains small as it is, though we're a powerful country, but scotland on its own would simply be a small pathetic in the shadow of giants (britian).
To conclude:
Silly scotland

Personally, I wouldn't want to be as big as Britain on the world stage. Britain is making an enemy of itself. Don't fancy that, ta. Be quite happy to not be a puffed up inflated "big boy" clinging onto memories of when we were important. Thanks.