Scottish Independance. Great Idea or No Go?

[Battenburgia]

all problems would be solved if we just kick England out of the UK

[Penguin Union Nation]

I'll support it if Sean Connery gets to be King of Scotland.

[Polar Islandstates]

RE: the Britishness/Scottishness debate,

Yes, the Scots are a part of the British Isles and can therefore be labelled as British. But it doesn't stop the fact that the term "British" has colloquially become to represent an overwhelmingly English image. Being half-Scottish half-English I would describe myself as British myself quite happily, but I can quite understand why it might piss off a Scot when the word 'British' conjures images of bowler hats and red double deckers.

I don't want to speak for our Nordic friends, but its my understanding that to describe a Swede or a Norwegian as Scandinavian wouldn't prompt derision from them over a term that come to represent an overwhelmingly Danish image, because it doesn't mean that. Scandinavian to my knowledge is still a predominantly geographical term that accurately describes the majority of the people that live there. I'm not sure you can say the same for British. British, lets not forget, should include those from the Republic of Ireland as well, try calling them British.

How many Mexicans would happily be described as North American?

[Carsonalia]

EDIT : He gives fuck all reasoning as to why it would foster the peace process. He just states it'll happen with no follow up. Give me a fucking break. The Shinners will be all over it like the smug twats they are further picking away at any Britishness left in the province.

It was an idea tacked onto a larger piece, agreed. A tangent worth investigating by someone who knows what they're talking about, I think.

Anyone who has the slightest clue what they're talking about would know that it's really not a tangent worth investigating.

[Chestaan]

"It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!"

You win this thread!

[Tagmatium]

all problems would be solved if we just kick England out of the UK

You'd be down one scapegoat.

[Olivaero]

Really? The fact that 300+ years ago there was a country called Scotland there should be one now? Perhaps the Papal States should also get all it's Land back? How about the Two Sicilies? The Mughal Empire? Texas? Hey why draw the Line at 300 years maybe The Burgundian's should get back all the land France stole off them? I Don't want my Home town to go independent because I believe in Democracy and Democracy is first and foremost an exerciser in compromise.

The fact that right now there's a country called Scotland. It's right there sitting on top of Northumberland. There's a border with signs and everything, it's pretty neat.
They're not looking to grab or conquer any land, like all your examples of long since defunct states seem to be implying. Scotland isn't even a long since defunct state, There are Scottish people, there is a Scottish government, there is a Scottish nation right here, right now.

Scotland is a "constituent country" of the United Kingdom, and at the moment a lot of them would rather just be "Scotland".

I'd say that makes about as much difference as the United States not being a "country" but merely a Union. We, the inhabitants of the British Isles are British. I may also be English But then I'm also a Yorkshiremen and A Doncastarian. So to can a Scot be British and Scottish at the same time, the Us vs them bullshit is a manufactured image of England and English men as a whole simply because our part of the union has the richest city in it. That country called Scotland exists as much as the country of Texas and now because times are rough they want to fuck off and take all the oil that's geographically closest with them. Even though they have more representation than a good deal of England does and a good deal of them (not all of them mind you) but a good deal of them whine about how oppressed they are while doing it.They are part of a Union which has one of the oldest still existing Democracies in the world and they joined it to build an empire and unfortunately we did.

So now when times are hard it's "grrr up yours ye posh English Bastards!!" Seriously, grow up and stop pretending than long gone divisions are still meaningful. We should be working together towards a more united world, not a more divided one.

[Ostroeuropa]

Only 23 per cent of people in Scotland say they now support independence.
Lets not pretend their arguments are any good. That number used to be 40ish %. Someones arguments are clearly better.

[The Archregimancy]

If only Queen's Park had won the English FA Cup Final in 1884 or 1885 (they also reached the semifinals in 1872), and then not been banned by the Scottish FA from entering the English FA Cup after 1886, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

So I blame 1884 and '85 FA Cup winners Blackburn Rovers and first Scottish FA chief executive John McDowall.



Interesting pointless British football history tidbit - the third round of the 1884 English FA Cup saw Queen's Park defeat Oswestry Town. Queen's Park were founder members of the Scottish FA and Oswestry Town, while representing an English town, were founder members of the Welsh FA; they would later merge with Llansantffraid's TNS in 2003. Both teams were still playing in the English FA Cup up to a decade after the foundation of their respective independent football associations. Off topic, I wonder if this is the only case of two teams playing against each other in the English FA Cup who are now ineligible to do so because they're today members of 'foreign' associations?

[Polar Islandstates]

Only 23 per cent of people in Scotland say they now support independence.
Lets not pretend their arguments are any good. That number used to be 40ish %. Someones arguments are clearly better.

Misleading poll is misleading. It didn't offer the same options as would be in the referendum, for a start. I agree that were the referendum held tomorrow then the NO vote would probably win, but still:
"Meanwhile, 67 per cent of people said Scotland should either make all decisions for Scotland, or it should make all decisions apart from defence and foreign affairs."
Same poll.

[Ostroeuropa]

Only 23 per cent of people in Scotland say they now support independence.
Lets not pretend their arguments are any good. That number used to be 40ish %. Someones arguments are clearly better.

Misleading poll is misleading. It didn't offer the same options as would be in the referendum, for a start. I agree that were the referendum held tomorrow then the NO vote would probably win, but still:
"Meanwhile, 67 per cent of people said Scotland should either make all decisions for Scotland, or it should make all decisions apart from defence and foreign affairs."
Same poll.

People will be asked to vote "yes" or "no" to the question: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"

So it isn't misleading. Whether or not they want more devolved powers is not relevant. And the SNP even rigged the question and they STILL can't get people to agree.

[Polar Islandstates]

Misleading poll is misleading. It didn't offer the same options as would be in the referendum, for a start. I agree that were the referendum held tomorrow then the NO vote would probably win, but still:
"Meanwhile, 67 per cent of people said Scotland should either make all decisions for Scotland, or it should make all decisions apart from defence and foreign affairs."
Same poll.

People will be asked to vote "yes" or "no" to the question: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"

So it isn't misleading.

It is. The 23% figure comes from a question without a yes/no answer. That's just basic. You can't accurately broadcast poll support for a yes/no question when that wasn't the question you were surveying in the first place. It's an oversimplified contraction of a question which had a sliding scale of six possible answers.

I could just as easily look at the same poll and tell you all that only 11% of people who answered want to maintain the status quo. When the choice is status quo or change, therefore, as it will be in the referendum, can I claim that 84% will vote yes? (5% Don't Know)

[Ostroeuropa]

People will be asked to vote "yes" or "no" to the question: "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?"

So it isn't misleading.

It is. The 23% figure comes from a question without a yes/no answer. That's just basic. You can't accurately broadcast poll support for a yes/no question when that wasn't the question you were surveying in the first place. It's an oversimplified contraction of a question which had a sliding scale of six possible answers.

I could just as easily look at the same poll and tell you all that only 11% of people who answered want to maintain the status quo. When the choice is status quo or change, therefore, as it will be in the referendum, can I claim that 84% will vote yes? (5% Don't Know)

That is not relevant to the question that will be posed, and they were posed that same question with the same answers. That other questions were asked too is not relevant.
Only 23% of scots support independence.
That's actually only 3% more than support creationism in the UK.

[Tagmatium]

It is. The 23% figure comes from a question without a yes/no answer. That's just basic. You can't accurately broadcast poll support for a yes/no question when that wasn't the question you were surveying in the first place. It's an oversimplified contraction of a question which had a sliding scale of six possible answers.

I could just as easily look at the same poll and tell you all that only 11% of people who answered want to maintain the status quo. When the choice is status quo or change, therefore, as it will be in the referendum, can I claim that 84% will vote yes? (5% Don't Know)

That is not relevant to the question that will be posed, and they were posed that same question with the same answers. That other questions were asked too is not relevant.
Only 23% of scots support independence.
That's actually only 3% more than support creationism in the UK.

Wait, what?

20% of the population of this country support creationism, or 20% of 5.3 million (the population of Scotland) - 1 million(ish - can't be bothered with decimal places now) support creationism?

[Ostroeuropa]

That is not relevant to the question that will be posed, and they were posed that same question with the same answers. That other questions were asked too is not relevant.
Only 23% of scots support independence.
That's actually only 3% more than support creationism in the UK.

Wait, what?

20% of the population of this country support creationism, or 20% of 5.3 million (the population of Scotland) - 1 million(ish - can't be bothered with decimal places now) support creationism?

The UK, 20%.
(To the extent that 80% do not support it being taught in schools. That leaves 20% that either want it exclusively taught, or "equal time.") the IDK's aren't added to final stats.
I'm willing to bet however that most of those would abandon their attempt at neutrality if you explained to them what creationism actually is though.

[Tagmatium]

Wait, what?

20% of the population of this country support creationism, or 20% of 5.3 million (the population of Scotland) - 1 million(ish - can't be bothered with decimal places now) support creationism?

The UK, 20%.
(To the extent that 80% do not support it being taught in schools. That leaves 20% that either want it exclusively taught, or "equal time.") the IDK's aren't added to final stats.
I'm willing to bet however that most of those would abandon their attempt at neutrality if you explained to them what creationism actually is though.

Hmm.

Didn't think it would be that high.

But enough of my threadjack.

[Polar Islandstates]

That is not relevant to the question that will be posed, and they were posed that same question with the same answers. That other questions were asked too is not relevant.
Only 23% of scots support independence.
That's actually only 3% more than support creationism in the UK.

Maybe I'm just stupid or not understanding something here (no sarcasm, distinctly possible), but how can the question being multiple choice not be relevant to the process when you then flatten the answers into a yes or no outcome?

[Ostroeuropa]

That is not relevant to the question that will be posed, and they were posed that same question with the same answers. That other questions were asked too is not relevant.
Only 23% of scots support independence.
That's actually only 3% more than support creationism in the UK.

Maybe I'm just stupid or not understanding something here (no sarcasm, distinctly possible), but how can the question being multiple choice not be relevant to the process when you then flatten the answers into a yes or no outcome?

It suggests that since Independence is one of the least popular options (2nd only to abolishing devolution alltogether.), that only 23% of scots support independence. The rest support less extreme measures.
It means that Scottish people do not want independence. They would prefer to remain in the UK. The manner in which they remain is not relevant to the question of Scottish Independence.

[Polar Islandstates]

But that just proves that 23% of Scots in the survey favour independence over all other options though, surely. What happens to the support for those less extreme measures when you remove that option? They won't have the luxury of those other options at the referendum - the SNP and Tories made sure of that between them.

At the moment I don't think the Yes vote will win. But come 2014 if the number of Yes voters is anywhere near as low 23% I will be incredibly surprised. I'm sure both sides are using these statistics to support their arguments, but to assume that those that voted for the various DevoMax options would all, to a man, traipse onto voting No is a stretch at best. What about those 67% that want Scotland to make all its own decisions? Are they all going to say "what, we can't do that without being part of the UK too? Fair enough, UK without those powers it is"?

The opinion of all the family members I've canvassed on this agree that it would be a shame to break the Union, but agree that if the Union isn't going to represent the best interests of both parties that formed it then independence is necessary for Scotland to be able to control its own decisions. By the poll we're discussing, they wouldn't have been one of the 23%, but they'd vote Yes rather than No next year.

[Ostroeuropa]

But that just proves that 23% of Scots in the survey favour independence over all other options though, surely. What happens to the support for those less extreme measures when you remove that option? They won't have the luxury of those other options at the referendum - the SNP and Tories made sure of that between them.

At the moment I don't think the Yes vote will win. But come 2014 if the number of Yes voters is anywhere near as low 23% I will be incredibly surprised. I'm sure both sides are using these statistics to support their arguments, but to assume that those that voted for the various DevoMax options would all, to a man, traipse onto voting No is a stretch at best. What about those 67% that want Scotland to make all its own decisions? Are they all going to say "what, we can't do that without being part of the UK too? Fair enough, UK without those powers it is"?

The opinion of all the family members I've canvassed on this agree that it would be a shame to break the Union, but agree that if the Union isn't going to represent the best interests of both parties that formed it then independence is necessary for Scotland to be able to control its own decisions. By the poll we're discussing, they wouldn't have been one of the 23%, but they'd vote Yes rather than No next year.

So you understand that scottish independence is not what the majority of the country wants...and that only 23% want it compared to various unity types...whats the problem again

[Thesan]

If they want to become independent who I am to stop their will? Let the people decide by its own...

[Souseiseki]

Only 23 per cent of people in Scotland say they now support independence.
Lets not pretend their arguments are any good.

What? How fucking dare you. Obviously, there are no good arguments against your amazing positions, right?

That number used to be 40ish %. Someones arguments are clearly better.

I hope you aren't trying to imply your arguments are clearly better since different polls at different times give different results. If your arguments are so clearly better, you'd think the numbers would remain the same, right? Unless you think when people who aren't 100% sure lean towards independence they're using no good arguments but when they're leaning towards unionism they're using smart rational good arguments, before they fall to the insidious independence again, which I wouldn't put past you.

[Polar Islandstates]

But that just proves that 23% of Scots in the survey favour independence over all other options though, surely. What happens to the support for those less extreme measures when you remove that option? They won't have the luxury of those other options at the referendum - the SNP and Tories made sure of that between them.

At the moment I don't think the Yes vote will win. But come 2014 if the number of Yes voters is anywhere near as low 23% I will be incredibly surprised. I'm sure both sides are using these statistics to support their arguments, but to assume that those that voted for the various DevoMax options would all, to a man, traipse onto voting No is a stretch at best. What about those 67% that want Scotland to make all its own decisions? Are they all going to say "what, we can't do that without being part of the UK too? Fair enough, UK without those powers it is"?

The opinion of all the family members I've canvassed on this agree that it would be a shame to break the Union, but agree that if the Union isn't going to represent the best interests of both parties that formed it then independence is necessary for Scotland to be able to control its own decisions. By the poll we're discussing, they wouldn't have been one of the 23%, but they'd vote Yes rather than No next year.

So you understand that scottish independence is not what the majority of the country wants...and that only 23% want it compared to various unity types...whats the problem again

If they're not given the chance to vote for what they want, then they might vote for other things that they do have a chance to do so instead.

Only 23% want it compared to various step ups of devolution. Fine.
Only 23% want it compared to the status quo? No. That's not what the question asked.

I just gave you first hand anecdotal evidence for my problem with the "only 23% support independence" banner; namely that I know people that will support independence come the referendum because of the possible answers they can give, yes or no. Voting 'yes' would seem to go against the claim that just because they'd prefer DevoMax it means they're against independence.

The AV Referendum was a yes/no question. You would not have been able to accurately convey support for it before hand with a multiple choice poll offering not just "AV" and "status quo" but other FTV options as well.

[Ostroeuropa]

Only 23 per cent of people in Scotland say they now support independence.
Lets not pretend their arguments are any good.

What? How fucking dare you. Obviously, there are no good arguments against your amazing positions, right?

That number used to be 40ish %. Someones arguments are clearly better.

I hope you aren't trying to imply your arguments are clearly better since different polls at different times give different results. If your arguments are so clearly better, you'd think the numbers would remain the same, right? Unless you think when people who aren't 100% sure lean towards independence they're using no good arguments but when they're leaning towards unionism they're using smart rational good arguments, before they fall to the insidious independence again, which I wouldn't put past you.

There are plenty of good arguments against a number of posistions I hold.
There are no good arguments for scottish independence, and it seems most scots agree.
Our arguments are clearly better because since this issue was given airtime, we've been consistently convincing people while the seperatists have been consistently failing to convince people.

[Souseiseki]

67% of people want Scotland to make all of its own decisions (i.e. de facto independence). How will the people in the Scotland house react when they find out that they've just voted for Scotland not making all of its own decisions?

Coming Autumn 2014