Scottish Independance. Great Idea or No Go?

[Risottia]

Probably not a good idea.

Aye, I agree. I don't personally support independence, but I do support the people's choice.

Then again, if they apply to join the EU, we could force them to go fully metric and to drive on the right.

[South Asia Minor]

Oh, please stop. You're the Yes campaign's equivalent to the Tea Party.

which would also be called the Tea party, I suppose.

The Whisky Party.
The Why the Hell Is Scotland Knavishly Yelling Party.

Folks like him, on our side and theirs, that make this kind of debate akin to grinding your face on a pavement.

Aye, I agree. I don't personally support independence, but I do support the people's choice.

Then again, if they apply to join the EU, we could force them to go fully metric and to drive on the right. :twisted:

That'll make the border crossings interesting.

[The UK in Exile]

which would also be called the Tea party, I suppose.

The Whisky Party.
The Why the Hell Is Scotland Knavishly Yelling Party.

Folks like him, on our side and theirs, that make this kind of debate akin to grinding your face on a pavement.

or as they call it Glasgow "A Good night out".

[SaorAlba]

In the beginning, The Lord God Almighty, sitting on His throne on high, turned to His mate, the Archangel Gabriel and said "Gabby, today I'm going to create Scotland. I will make it a country of dark beautiful mountains, purple glens and rich green forests. I will give it clear swift flowing rivers and I will fill them with salmon. The land shall be lush and fertile, on which the people shall grow barley to brew into an amber nectar that will be much sought after the world over. Underneath the land I shall lay rich seams of coal.

In the waters around the shores there will be an abundance of fish and beneath the sea bed there will be vast deposits of oil and gas".

"Excuse me Sire", interrupted the Archangel Gabriel, "Don't you think you are being a bit too generous to these Scots"?

"Not really", replied the Lord, "wait 'til you see the neighbours I'm giving them".

You're just being a bit of a dick now. Plus, on an unrelated note about your sig, if you leave the UK you realise you'll still be British right? You share this island with us, whether you like it or not. And, as far as I know, you guys will still be part of the commonwealth too.

Waaaaaa!! i'll no sleep the nicht wi that one!! & i'll never be british! up the republic!!!

[Calorax]

No, you ARE British. You're from the British Isles. That makes you British.

[South Asia Minor]

You're just being a bit of a dick now. Plus, on an unrelated note about your sig, if you leave the UK you realise you'll still be British right? You share this island with us, whether you like it or not. And, as far as I know, you guys will still be part of the commonwealth too.

Waaaaaa!! i'll no sleep the nicht wi that one!! & i'll never be british! up the republic!!!

Okay, now I just think you're some kind of North Korean spy looking to incite civil war.

No, you ARE British. You're from the British Isles. That makes you British.

Eh, in a geographical sense. Nationally speaking's debatable.

[Priory Academy USSR]

You know, it does seem rather stupid to me. The UK is pretty liberal on what powers it gives to the Scottish; if you vote for it, you have it. But if they gain independence, and presumably request and gain entry to the EU, I suspect the EU will be able to force upon them every rule they have in the book. Scotland doesn't have the weight behind it like the UK does, so most negotiations of powers will be a no-no, with Scotland having little power over any new rules made as well.

Basically, you go from being vaguely ruled by Westminster, about half a days drive down the country, to being ruled from Brussels, where it's an entirely foreign country where you have less power over than Westminster. Not really a good choice where your main argument seems to be independence from foreign countries.

[SaorAlba]

Waaaaaa!! i'll no sleep the nicht wi that one!! & i'll never be british! up the republic!!!

Okay, now I just think you're some kind of North Korean spy looking to incite civil war.

No, you ARE British. You're from the British Isles. That makes you British.

Eh, in a geographical sense. Nationally speaking's debatable.

Cheers south aisa...... & Calorex ... get it right up ye!

[Tagmatium]

they don't have to put up with them.

In the beginning, The Lord God Almighty, sitting on His throne on high, turned to His mate, the Archangel Gabriel and said "Gabby, today I'm going to create Scotland. I will make it a country of dark beautiful mountains, purple glens and rich green forests. I will give it clear swift flowing rivers and I will fill them with salmon. The land shall be lush and fertile, on which the people shall grow barley to brew into an amber nectar that will be much sought after the world over. Underneath the land I shall lay rich seams of coal.

In the waters around the shores there will be an abundance of fish and beneath the sea bed there will be vast deposits of oil and gas".

"Excuse me Sire", interrupted the Archangel Gabriel, "Don't you think you are being a bit too generous to these Scots"?

"Not really", replied the Lord, "wait 'til you see the neighbours I'm giving them".

Eh, I thought that was pretty funny.

Bar the use of smilies, makes everything look ridiculous.

[South Asia Minor]

You know, it does seem rather stupid to me. The UK is pretty liberal on what powers it gives to the Scottish; if you vote for it, you have it. But if they gain independence, and presumably request and gain entry to the EU, I suspect the EU will be able to force upon them every rule they have in the book. Scotland doesn't have the weight behind it like the UK does, so most negotiations of powers will be a no-no, with Scotland having little power over any new rules made as well.

Basically, you go from being vaguely ruled by Westminster, about half a days drive down the country, to being ruled from Brussels, where it's an entirely foreign country where you have less power over than Westminster. Not really a good choice where your main argument seems to be independence from foreign countries.

I don't think you've really done your homework on either Westminster's powers or EuroParl's.

[The UK in Exile]

In the beginning, The Lord God Almighty, sitting on His throne on high, turned to His mate, the Archangel Gabriel and said "Gabby, today I'm going to create Scotland. I will make it a country of dark beautiful mountains, purple glens and rich green forests. I will give it clear swift flowing rivers and I will fill them with salmon. The land shall be lush and fertile, on which the people shall grow barley to brew into an amber nectar that will be much sought after the world over. Underneath the land I shall lay rich seams of coal.

In the waters around the shores there will be an abundance of fish and beneath the sea bed there will be vast deposits of oil and gas".

"Excuse me Sire", interrupted the Archangel Gabriel, "Don't you think you are being a bit too generous to these Scots"?

"Not really", replied the Lord, "wait 'til you see the neighbours I'm giving them".

Eh, I thought that was pretty funny.

Bar the use of smilies, makes everything look ridiculous.

its funny because its written by someone who clearly only had scotland described to him by someone who has seen a postcard of scotland. once.

[Priory Academy USSR]

You know, it does seem rather stupid to me. The UK is pretty liberal on what powers it gives to the Scottish; if you vote for it, you have it. But if they gain independence, and presumably request and gain entry to the EU, I suspect the EU will be able to force upon them every rule they have in the book. Scotland doesn't have the weight behind it like the UK does, so most negotiations of powers will be a no-no, with Scotland having little power over any new rules made as well.

Basically, you go from being vaguely ruled by Westminster, about half a days drive down the country, to being ruled from Brussels, where it's an entirely foreign country where you have less power over than Westminster. Not really a good choice where your main argument seems to be independence from foreign countries.

I don't think you've really done your homework on either Westminster's powers or EuroParl's.

Scotland's power is fairly devolved, through the various devolution acts. The UK seems fairly open to further devolution. The EU, on the other hand, is really going in the other direction, trying to bring countries together; not that I disagree with that. The EU, IIRC, has a fairly major pull over legal systems and other government bodies, with no plans to give that power back to it's consituent countries.

[Calorax]

Waaaaaa!! i'll no sleep the nicht wi that one!! & i'll never be british! up the republic!!!

Okay, now I just think you're some kind of North Korean spy looking to incite civil war.

No, you ARE British. You're from the British Isles. That makes you British.

Eh, in a geographical sense. Nationally speaking's debatable.

Of course, but Britain isn't really a country, whereas Scotland is, so comparing the two is silly in the first place.

[South Asia Minor]

I don't think you've really done your homework on either Westminster's powers or EuroParl's.

Scotland's power is fairly devolved, through the various devolution acts. The UK seems fairly open to further devolution. The EU, on the other hand, is really going in the other direction, trying to bring countries together; not that I disagree with that. The EU, IIRC, has a fairly major pull over legal systems and other government bodies, with no plans to give that power back to it's consituent countries.

And so Scotland has very limited power over its own government. Scotland has no power over defence, foreign policy, immigration, social security, energy, economic policy, broadcasting or data protection. All those decisions are made by a government that the Scottish decisively did not vote for.
Considering the EU's influence, aside from the benefit of its single market that may well be lost should the UK vote to leave; Scotland will probably be in a similar position to that of the Irish. Ireland is an independent state with a bona fide national identity, something Scotland is not. It has its own say in the European government, something Scotland does not. Moreover, the EU is a voluntary cooperative, a highly beneficial one at that. Scotland's part of the United Kingdom is not.

Okay, now I just think you're some kind of North Korean spy looking to incite civil war.


Eh, in a geographical sense. Nationally speaking's debatable.

Of course, but Britain isn't really a country, whereas Scotland is, so comparing the two is silly in the first place.

I believe that's the point of the debate.
Scotland would rather be a country and not part of something that isn't really a country but damn well acts like it is.

[The UK in Exile]

Scotland's power is fairly devolved, through the various devolution acts. The UK seems fairly open to further devolution. The EU, on the other hand, is really going in the other direction, trying to bring countries together; not that I disagree with that. The EU, IIRC, has a fairly major pull over legal systems and other government bodies, with no plans to give that power back to it's consituent countries.

And so Scotland has very limited power over its own government. Scotland has no power over defence, foreign policy, immigration, social security, energy, economic policy, broadcasting or data protection.

All things that no nation has complete sovereignity over anyway. Scotland will have to co-operate with other nations when it comes to defence (No nukes! but NATO pls), foreign policy (Dear UK, can we borrow your SC veto please), immigration (dear UK please stop placing immigration centers on our borders), economic policy (monetary union, UK or EU).

[South Asia Minor]

And so Scotland has very limited power over its own government. Scotland has no power over defence, foreign policy, immigration, social security, energy, economic policy, broadcasting or data protection.

All things that no nation has complete sovereignity over anyway. Scotland will have to co-operate with other nations when it comes to defence (No nukes! but NATO pls), foreign policy (Dear UK, can we borrow your SC veto please), immigration (dear UK please stop placing immigration centers on our borders), economic policy (monetary union, UK or EU).

Sounds fine. As long as its decisions are made by a government elected by the people of Scotland.

[Priory Academy USSR]

Scotland's power is fairly devolved, through the various devolution acts. The UK seems fairly open to further devolution. The EU, on the other hand, is really going in the other direction, trying to bring countries together; not that I disagree with that. The EU, IIRC, has a fairly major pull over legal systems and other government bodies, with no plans to give that power back to it's consituent countries.

And so Scotland has very limited power over its own government. Scotland has no power over defence, foreign policy, immigration, social security, energy, economic policy, broadcasting or data protection. All those decisions are made by a government that the Scottish decisively did not vote for.
Considering the EU's influence, aside from the benefit of its single market that may well be lost should the UK vote to leave; Scotland will probably be in a similar position to that of the Irish. Ireland is an independent state with a bona fide national identity, something Scotland is not. It has its own say in the European government, something Scotland does not. Moreover, the EU is a voluntary cooperative, a highly beneficial one at that. Scotland's part of the United Kingdom is not.

Fair enough. I'd take issue with your last points, though. Scotland has it's own MEPs already. Becoming an independent country won't change that, as the amount of MEPs, IIRC, based on population. I'd also say that being part of the UK is fairly beneficial too, as there's no restrictions across the borders, and both sides can take advantage of each other's various specialities if they so desire. And it's fairly voluntary, too, since the UK is allowing Scotland a referendum; if it wasn't voluntary, they wouldn't have agreed at all to Salmond's requests.

[Tagmatium]

Eh, I thought that was pretty funny.

Bar the use of smilies, makes everything look ridiculous.

its funny because its written by someone who clearly only had scotland described to him by someone who has seen a postcard of scotland. once.

Either that, or very rose-tinted glasses.

See: Merry England.

[South Asia Minor]

And so Scotland has very limited power over its own government. Scotland has no power over defence, foreign policy, immigration, social security, energy, economic policy, broadcasting or data protection. All those decisions are made by a government that the Scottish decisively did not vote for.
Considering the EU's influence, aside from the benefit of its single market that may well be lost should the UK vote to leave; Scotland will probably be in a similar position to that of the Irish. Ireland is an independent state with a bona fide national identity, something Scotland is not. It has its own say in the European government, something Scotland does not. Moreover, the EU is a voluntary cooperative, a highly beneficial one at that. Scotland's part of the United Kingdom is not.

Fair enough. I'd take issue with your last points, though. Scotland has it's own MEPs already. Becoming an independent country won't change that, as the amount of MEPs, IIRC, based on population. I'd also say that being part of the UK is fairly beneficial too, as there's no restrictions across the borders, and both sides can take advantage of each other's various specialities if they so desire. And it's fairly voluntary, too, since the UK is allowing Scotland a referendum; if it wasn't voluntary, they wouldn't have agreed at all to Salmond's requests.

Fair point on the EU, in regards to representation in Parliament, but not in the Councils or the Commission.
Those benefits of the UK you listed are also enjoyed by the Irish Republic, however, complete with no border restrictions. The Irish can even vote in the UK if they live there. Scottish independence shouldn't make any difference to those.

[The UK in Exile]

All things that no nation has complete sovereignity over anyway. Scotland will have to co-operate with other nations when it comes to defence (No nukes! but NATO pls), foreign policy (Dear UK, can we borrow your SC veto please), immigration (dear UK please stop placing immigration centers on our borders), economic policy (monetary union, UK or EU).

Sounds fine. As long as its decisions are made by a government elected by the people of Scotland.

well they won't though will they? they'll be made by the Sec-Gen of Nato and the Governor of the Bank of England, for example. or in the case of the border policy along the Scots-England border, Westminster minus any Scotish representation at all.

[Olivaero]

Fair enough. I'd take issue with your last points, though. Scotland has it's own MEPs already. Becoming an independent country won't change that, as the amount of MEPs, IIRC, based on population. I'd also say that being part of the UK is fairly beneficial too, as there's no restrictions across the borders, and both sides can take advantage of each other's various specialities if they so desire. And it's fairly voluntary, too, since the UK is allowing Scotland a referendum; if it wasn't voluntary, they wouldn't have agreed at all to Salmond's requests.

Fair point on the EU, in regards to representation in Parliament, but not in the Councils or the Commission.
Those benefits of the UK you listed are also enjoyed by the Irish Republic, however, complete with no border restrictions. The Irish can even vote in the UK if they live there. Scottish independence shouldn't make any difference to those.

The Irish that vote in the UK wouldn't be part of the Irish Republic now would they?

[Scholencia]

.

[South Asia Minor]

Sounds fine. As long as its decisions are made by a government elected by the people of Scotland.

well they won't though will they? they'll be made by the Sec-Gen of Nato and the Governor of the Bank of England, for example. or in the case of the border policy along the Scots-England border, Westminster minus any Scotish representation at all.

They'll have as much influence as the English do over English affairs... and Scottish affairs, for that matter.
There's more ways to emigrate to Scotland than up from England. 'Course it'd really just be emigrating into the CTA wherever you go in Ireland or GB.

Fair point on the EU, in regards to representation in Parliament, but not in the Councils or the Commission.
Those benefits of the UK you listed are also enjoyed by the Irish Republic, however, complete with no border restrictions. The Irish can even vote in the UK if they live there. Scottish independence shouldn't make any difference to those.

The Irish that vote in the UK wouldn't be part of the Irish Republic now would they?

Eh?
Irish citizens, who have the right to live and work in the UK unconditionally, may vote in UK elections, and vice versa. They're still Irish citizens.
Though that's... really beside the point.

[The UK in Exile]

well they won't though will they? they'll be made by the Sec-Gen of Nato and the Governor of the Bank of England, for example. or in the case of the border policy along the Scots-England border, Westminster minus any Scotish representation at all.

They'll have as much influence as the English do over English affairs... and Scottish affairs, for that matter.
There's more ways to emigrate to Scotland than up from England. 'Course it'd really just be emigrating into the CTA wherever you go in Ireland or GB.

its more keeping immigrants out. Though of course, heathrow is the 3rd largest airport in the world, so actually, there aren't that many more ways to emmigrate to Scotland than through England.

[South Asia Minor]

They'll have as much influence as the English do over English affairs... and Scottish affairs, for that matter.
There's more ways to emigrate to Scotland than up from England. 'Course it'd really just be emigrating into the CTA wherever you go in Ireland or GB.

its more keeping immigrants out. Though of course, heathrow is the 3rd largest airport in the world, so actually, there aren't that many more ways to emmigrate to Scotland than through England.

In my view that's a whole other debate, given that I probably disagree with most common platforms on immigration.

(And, for the record, the SNP and a nice chunk of the populace oppose NATO)