Israel-Palestine conflict

[Spiritwolf]

Nice Jewish girls do not marry palestinian boys and neither will Israel marry itself to a palestinian state. Dis-arming them and giving them citizenship (and their own land/nation) will not remove their (or Hamas) desire to kill Israel. Nor would such an idea win the approval of President Morsi. The idea of running joint IDF and PA patrols to provide security in this independent palestinian land is completely unrealistic, even with a strong UN military presence. Our troopers would be in palestinian territory, surrounded by a hostile populace and attempting to patrol in the presence of an armed palestinian military/police unit........... that recipe is tailor made for our boys to be ambushed and wiped out to a man, or taken hostage and held for years before being traded for "1,000" of their detainee's (many of whom were murderer's). Gaza and the West Bank are merely forward operating bases for "foreign powers" that hate us as it is. Your heart is in the right place seeking peace for all here Ralk. I pray you do find a solution that works.

Did you actually read what I said? Reread again.

Ralk, there is no practical way to do all the things you are suggesting here. Give them a land of their own, then sweep through it and completely demilitarize them? Establish a secure perimeter around their entire territory to prevent weapons shipments from getting in to them as well as keep foreign countries from using palestine as a forward operating base against us? Throw in 15,000 UN peace keepers on top of it all? The only possible way to enforce all that would be to constantly patrol "their" lands with IDF units, most likely light infantry and military police. Thats going to make for many casualties, MIA's, and KIA's of our people right away and then we will have to sustain that level of effort indefinitely. The palestinians will never accept us dictating how they live their lives in their lands. Am I still missing something here? Am I not understanding the picture clearly enough? I'm on your side here, I'm just trying to get a grip on what you're suggesting in practical terms on the ground. I like the part about annexing area's that we really want right up front and offering citizenship to everyone there to stabilize the situation and give them something to fight for too.

[Ralkovia]

Okay, I'm done. You people are obviously so ignorant to the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the State of Israel that a simple forum post won't change your minds. Frankly I find it ironic that a people so persecuted over the years can commit similar acts previously committed against them and shrug it off as an act of survival and self defense. But I suppose it's okay to oppress, displace, and eliminate another people as long as it's not happening to you, right?

It's not genocide. Genocide carries a connotation of negative population growth. Since the Palestines are either Zerg and are just breeding faster than Israel can kill it or the Palestinians aren't experiencing genocide.

[Ralkovia]

Did you actually read what I said? Reread again.

Ralk, there is no practical way to do all the things you are suggesting here. Give them a land of their own, then sweep through it and completely demilitarize them? Establish a secure perimeter around their entire territory to prevent weapons shipments from getting in to them as well as keep foreign countries from using palestine as a forward operating base against us? Throw in 15,000 UN peace keepers on top of it all? The only possible way to enforce all that would be to constantly patrol "their" lands with IDF units, most likely light infantry and military police. Thats going to make for many casualties, MIA's, and KIA's of our people right away and then we will have to sustain that level of effort indefinitely. The palestinians will never accept us dictating how they live their lives in their lands. Am I still missing something here? Am I not understanding the picture clearly enough? I'm on your side here, I'm just trying to get a grip on what you're suggesting in practical terms on the ground. I like the part about annexing area's that we really want right up front and offering citizenship to everyone there to stabilize the situation and give them something to fight for too.

Because, it'll be the Israel bashing Scandinavian countries putting up with all the losses. We'll quickly find out just how tolerant the Scandinavians are.

[Spiritwolf]

Okay, I'm done. You people are obviously so ignorant to the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the State of Israel that a simple forum post won't change your minds. Frankly I find it ironic that a people so persecuted over the years can commit similar acts previously committed against them and shrug it off as an act of survival and self defense. But I suppose it's okay to oppress, displace, and eliminate another people as long as it's not happening to you, right?

When Israel declared independence, she was instantly assaulted from all sides with murderous intent. The Six-Day War happened because enemies were massing on our borders to stage for an invasion. Israel struck first pre-emptively and eliminated that threat before it could be brought to bear. In 1973, once again, a surprise attack from all sides was defeated at great cost to our armored corps and the IAF. Palestinian terrorists attacked Israel so viciously that an invasion of Lebanon was initiated and carried all the way to Beirut to break our enemies back, and then a security zone was established to buffer northern Israel against further attacks. Are you beginning to see a pattern here? Whatever fate the palestinians are left to now is the cumulative result of many years of aggression against Israel. Are we then to feel sorry for the palestinians? Is there dishonor in doing what is needed to protect our people? It is true, atrocities have gone both ways in this matter. This cannot be changed now, but we can and should do all we can now to protect our peoples present and future from further atrocities and loss of life. What it is is what it is. We will find our way.

[Novraslavia]

Okay, I'm done. You people are obviously so ignorant to the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the State of Israel that a simple forum post won't change your minds. Frankly I find it ironic that a people so persecuted over the years can commit similar acts previously committed against them and shrug it off as an act of survival and self defense. But I suppose it's okay to oppress, displace, and eliminate another people as long as it's not happening to you, right?

It's not genocide. Genocide carries a connotation of negative population growth. Since the Palestines are either Zerg and are just breeding faster than Israel can kill it or the Palestinians aren't experiencing genocide.

My mistake, I'll rephrase: attempted genocide.

[Arumdaum]

If they saw themselves as German, why not? Because of their skin color?

If they saw themselves as Germans, then they'd belong to the group of citizens called Germans. He would not be an ethnic German.

Because of ethnicity.

Do you even know what ethnicity means? Or even citizen? Seeing yourself as a "German" doesn't make you a German citizen. Identifying yourself as German, however, would make you an ethnic German.

[Spiritwolf]

Ralk, there is no practical way to do all the things you are suggesting here. Give them a land of their own, then sweep through it and completely demilitarize them? Establish a secure perimeter around their entire territory to prevent weapons shipments from getting in to them as well as keep foreign countries from using palestine as a forward operating base against us? Throw in 15,000 UN peace keepers on top of it all? The only possible way to enforce all that would be to constantly patrol "their" lands with IDF units, most likely light infantry and military police. Thats going to make for many casualties, MIA's, and KIA's of our people right away and then we will have to sustain that level of effort indefinitely. The palestinians will never accept us dictating how they live their lives in their lands. Am I still missing something here? Am I not understanding the picture clearly enough? I'm on your side here, I'm just trying to get a grip on what you're suggesting in practical terms on the ground. I like the part about annexing area's that we really want right up front and offering citizenship to everyone there to stabilize the situation and give them something to fight for too.

Because, it'll be the Israel bashing Scandinavian countries putting up with all the losses. We'll quickly find out just how tolerant the Scandinavians are.

Anyone who steps between the IDF and the palestinians is going to get their asses handed to them by the palestinians. Even the Scandinavians will grow tired of that before too long. Good idea hehehe!!

[Ralkovia]

It's not genocide. Genocide carries a connotation of negative population growth. Since the Palestines are either Zerg and are just breeding faster than Israel can kill it or the Palestinians aren't experiencing genocide.

My mistake, I'll rephrase: attempted genocide.

It wouldn't be attempted Genocide if Israel isn't actively trying to murder all of them. Is Israel going into Saudi Arabia to murder Palestinians because they are Palestinians?

[Spiritwolf]

My mistake, I'll rephrase: attempted genocide.

It wouldn't be attempted Genocide if Israel isn't actively trying to murder all of them. Is Israel going into Saudi Arabia to murder Palestinians because they are Palestinians?

Jordan has a very high percentage of palestinians in it's population, and the ironic thing is that Jordan is the one country that has established a good rapport with Israel. The Jordanians are, by and large, a stabilizing influence in the region. Genocide indeed.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

Okay, I'm done. You people are obviously so ignorant to the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the State of Israel that a simple forum post won't change your minds. Frankly I find it ironic that a people so persecuted over the years can commit similar acts previously committed against them and shrug it off as an act of survival and self defense. But I suppose it's okay to oppress, displace, and eliminate another people as long as it's not happening to you, right?

the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the State of Israel-doesn't exist.
the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the Saudi Kingdom-Does exist, It's happening but the Jew haters will NEVER tell you that.

[Tmutarakhan]

the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the Saudi Kingdom-Does exist, It's happening but the Jew haters will NEVER tell you that.

What on earth are you talking about??? Look, I've been holding up the pro-Israeli side of the argument here on NSG for years, but you and Spiritwolf make me ashamed to be in your country.

By the way, I'm more Finnish than Hippostania will ever be!

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the Saudi Kingdom-Does exist, It's happening but the Jew haters will NEVER tell you that.

What on earth are you talking about??? Look, I've been holding up the pro-Israeli side of the argument here on NSG for years, but you and Spiritwolf make me ashamed to be in your country.

By the way, I'm more Finnish than Hippostania will ever be!

The treatment of Palestinians in the rest of the middle east varies from second-class citizen to state slave. Israel is called a Aparteid state or a Nazi state etc but they never mention that the R
EAL Aparteid against the Palestinians are conducted by Saudi Arabia and Syria and Turkey etc. And, EVERYONE is more Finnish then Hippostania.

[Divair]

the atrocities, dare I say genocide, perpetrated against the Palestinian people by the Saudi Kingdom-Does exist, It's happening but the Jew haters will NEVER tell you that.

What on earth are you talking about??? Look, I've been holding up the pro-Israeli side of the argument here on NSG for years, but you and Spiritwolf make me ashamed to be in your country.

By the way, I'm more Finnish than Hippostania will ever be!

If it makes you feel better, I'm an actual Israeli and they make me more ashamed.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

What on earth are you talking about??? Look, I've been holding up the pro-Israeli side of the argument here on NSG for years, but you and Spiritwolf make me ashamed to be in your country.

By the way, I'm more Finnish than Hippostania will ever be!

If it makes you feel better, I'm an actual Israeli and they make me more ashamed.

You hardly qualify as an Israeli.

[Souseiseki]

If it makes you feel better, I'm an actual Israeli and they make me more ashamed.

You hardly qualify as an Israeli.

is it because he's not rabidly anti-palestinian enough for you?

[Souseiseki]

If it makes you feel better, I'm an actual Israeli and they make me more ashamed.

You hardly qualify as an Israeli.

"Israelis (Hebrew: ישראלים, Yisra'elim), are citizens or nationals of the modern state of Israel."

[Divair]

You hardly qualify as an Israeli.

is it because he's not rabidly anti-palestinian enough for you?

Maybe when I get my driver's license in June it'll be good enough?

I wonder if he realizes he is on my ignore list, so I can't read his posts.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

You hardly qualify as an Israeli.

is it because he's not rabidly anti-palestinian enough for you?

THat's one reason. When you think Israeli do you really think Secular, Atheist, Anti-American, Gamer?

[Socialist EU]

I thought some of you may find this interesting.

'the numerical, political and technical relations of forces are such that the Palestinian people on its own, even if fully mobilised, are highly unlikely to be able to achieve the total overthrow of Zionism. Nor are the Arab states, under their present regimes, able to do so.
The overthrow of Zionism will become possible only through a deep social and political transformation of the Arab world, or at the very least the Mashreq, which will not only unite it, but also infuse it with new revolutionary social energies.

Moreover, because of the partnership between Zionism and western, particularly American, imperialism, and because of the political, financial and military protection that the former receives from the latter, the overthrow of Zionism is inseparable from the uprooting of imperialist domination over the Arab world.

Also this points to the conclusion that an ultimate thorough solution of the Palestinian problem can be achieved only as part of a socialist revolution throughout the entire region, leading in particular to the overthrow of Zionism. Socialists who fail to make this conclusion clear, and who support various bourgeois nationalist formulas that obscure it, are guilty of gross dereliction of duty and are indeed acting in a self-defeating way.

A socialist programme must therefore be along the following lines. A united, socialist Arab world - or at least, in the first instance, Arab east - with a federal structure, reflecting the two-tier structure of the Arab nation. The Palestinian problem would be solved within this union by incorporating in it a part of Palestine as one or more autonomous Palestinian Arab cantons. The remaining part of Palestine will also be incorporated in the union, as one or more autonomous Hebrew national cantons. Thus the whole of Palestine’s territory is to be included in the union, but as two or more cantons rather than as one country. The boundaries between the Palestinian Arab and Hebrew cantons are to be determined not on the basis of the present or past borders of Israel, but according to economic, geographical and demographic criteria, a principal criterion being which national group - Palestinian Arab or Hebrew - is the majority of the population in a given district.

Naturally, the socialist union is to be formed in a democratic way, by voluntary accession rather than by coercion.

M,Machover, Israelis and Palestinians: conflict and resolution Haymarket Books, 2012(pp51-52)

[Souseiseki]

is it because he's not rabidly anti-palestinian enough for you?

THat's one reason. When you think Israeli do you really think Secular, Atheist, Anti-American, Gamer?

when i think israeli i think citizen of israel

because my conception of nationality is not based around things like race, religion, ideology or whether they play games

[Souseiseki]

is it because he's not rabidly anti-palestinian enough for you?

Maybe when I get my driver's license in June it'll be good enough?

I wonder if he realizes he is on my ignore list, so I can't read his posts.

now i feel really bad for passing them on by proxy

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

You hardly qualify as an Israeli.

"Israelis (Hebrew: ישראלים, Yisra'elim), are citizens or nationals of the modern state of Israel."

I didn't say he wasn't. But he isn't the stereotypic Israeli.

[Divair]

Maybe when I get my driver's license in June it'll be good enough?

I wonder if he realizes he is on my ignore list, so I can't read his posts.

now i feel really bad for passing them on by proxy

It's fine. I don't really care what some American kid on the internet thinks about me and Israel. Doesn't make any difference in the real world

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

THat's one reason. When you think Israeli do you really think Secular, Atheist, Anti-American, Gamer?

when i think israeli i think citizen of israel

because my conception of nationality is not based around things like race, religion, ideology or whether they play games

Neither is mine. It's just he is the total opposite of what an Israeli is supposed to be.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

is it because he's not rabidly anti-palestinian enough for you?

Maybe when I get my driver's license in June it'll be good enough?

I wonder if he realizes he is on my ignore list, so I can't read his posts.

I'm getting my livcense in June too. Oh what a concidence.