Israel-Palestine conflict

[DogDoo 7]

That's why religious texts make for bad geopolitics.

Anyway, if you were King of the UN, what would be your solution? dontsaypalestineisjordandontsaypalestineisjordandontsaypalestineisjordan

I'm sorry for being so forthright, I don't like talking about solutions (mostly because they all depress me in some way) and Tmut already convinced me of the initial blame the Palestinians have for taking up arms first.

I am actually a strong advocate for a two state solution, but I would like to incorporate settlements and Jerusalem into Israel.
(Since we are speaking fantastically, I would reform security council and UNHRC before doing anything.)

Which settlements? Here is a helpful map (large and detailed pdf). Keep in mind that the land slopes quite steeply from Jerusalem to Jericho, so any settlements annexed to Israel there pose an added inconvenience.

Do you mean UNHRC or UNHCR? The UNHRC doesn't actually do anything with respect to Israel, but makes lots of sternly worded letters. The UNHCR isn't relevant because the Palestinian refugees were created before it, and fall under the jurisdiction of UNRWA. Although I wouldn't mind shifting jurisdiction to UNHCR.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

I am actually a strong advocate for a two state solution, but I would like to incorporate settlements and Jerusalem into Israel.
(Since we are speaking fantastically, I would reform security council and UNHRC before doing anything.)

Which settlements? Here is a helpful map (large and detailed pdf). Keep in mind that the land slopes quite steeply from Jerusalem to Jericho, so any settlements annexed to Israel there pose an added inconvenience.

Do you mean UNHRC or UNHCR? The UNHRC doesn't actually do anything with respect to Israel, but makes lots of sternly worded letters. The UNHCR isn't relevant because the Palestinian refugees were created before it, and fall under the jurisdiction of UNRWA. Although I wouldn't mind shifting jurisdiction to UNHCR.

I meant human rights commission (UNHRC). Reforming security council and human rights commission, so that those two can work in more meaningful way rather than have UNHRC be just another meaningless grouping of bureaucrats. I was just speaking fantastically there.

You are right that land around Jericho (Area adjacent to Jordan River) would be inconvenient, but for defense purposes, it'd be advisable to hold onto that territory. I tend to be hold an extreme view that any settlement that wishes to remain in Israel will have to.

[Ralkovia]

I am actually a strong advocate for a two state solution, but I would like to incorporate settlements and Jerusalem into Israel.
(Since we are speaking fantastically, I would reform security council and UNHRC before doing anything.)

Which settlements? Here is a helpful map (large and detailed pdf). Keep in mind that the land slopes quite steeply from Jerusalem to Jericho, so any settlements annexed to Israel there pose an added inconvenience.

Do you mean UNHRC or UNHCR? The UNHRC doesn't actually do anything with respect to Israel, but makes lots of sternly worded letters. The UNHCR isn't relevant because the Palestinian refugees were created before it, and fall under the jurisdiction of UNRWA. Although I wouldn't mind shifting jurisdiction to UNHCR.

UNHRC is also bullshit.

Seems a bit propaganda-ish.

Yes, but it's like watching a Michael Moore film. He may be obnoxious, but his points still stand.

Michael Moore is also a well known liar and propagandist, whose points are debunked often.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pqv5ABQP5U

If you don't trust Fox News on the basis of bias then you shouldn't trust Michael Moore.

Christopher Hitchens did a great job destroying Michael Moore. I'll provide an article when I can pull it up.

[Costa Alegria]

UNHRC is also bullshit.

Only because the keep putting questionable countries on it. Personally I feel the recent appointment of a man who was the spokesperson for the Assad regime to the UN's Decolonisation body is a bit fucked, considering he now has barking orders to give our territories in the Pacific independence.

[Disserbia]

UNHRC is also bullshit.

Only because the keep putting questionable countries on it. Personally I feel the recent appointment of a man who was the spokesperson for the Assad regime to the UN's Decolonisation body is a bit fucked, considering he now has barking orders to give our territories in the Pacific independence.

I hate myself for coming back here, but how is this not ad hom, particularly if he is no longer the spokesperson.

[Costa Alegria]

Only because the keep putting questionable countries on it. Personally I feel the recent appointment of a man who was the spokesperson for the Assad regime to the UN's Decolonisation body is a bit fucked, considering he now has barking orders to give our territories in the Pacific independence.

I hate myself for coming back here, but how is this not ad hom, particularly if he is no longer the spokesperson.

What are you saying?

[DogDoo 7]

Which settlements? Here is a helpful map (large and detailed pdf). Keep in mind that the land slopes quite steeply from Jerusalem to Jericho, so any settlements annexed to Israel there pose an added inconvenience.

Do you mean UNHRC or UNHCR? The UNHRC doesn't actually do anything with respect to Israel, but makes lots of sternly worded letters. The UNHCR isn't relevant because the Palestinian refugees were created before it, and fall under the jurisdiction of UNRWA. Although I wouldn't mind shifting jurisdiction to UNHCR.

I meant human rights commission (UNHRC). Reforming security council and human rights commission, so that those two can work in more meaningful way rather than have UNHRC be just another meaningless grouping of bureaucrats. I was just speaking fantastically there.

You are right that land around Jericho (Area adjacent to Jordan River) would be inconvenient, but for defense purposes, it'd be advisable to hold onto that territory. I tend to be hold an extreme view that any settlement that wishes to remain in Israel will have to.

Agree about UN reform.
You're not a real supporter of a 2 state solution if that's how you feel about settlements. (And it's not so much about jericho, it's about traveling from ramallah to bethlehem, a distance of about 15 km, that right now takes over an hour and could very well take up to 2 if Israel closes passage next to Ma'aleh Adumim). This land is TINY. Any actual 2 state solution will require a lot of sacrifice of everyone involved, and even still Palestine will remain a client state of Israel (unless it's federated with Jordan).

[Disserbia]

I hate myself for coming back here, but how is this not ad hom, particularly if he is no longer the spokesperson.

What are you saying?

Is it not clear? I am asking why it matters if someone who is no longer the spokesperson from Assad regime is appointed to the UN.

[The Horror Channel]

I say we take off and nuke Israel from orbit...it's the only way to be sure.

[DogDoo 7]

Which settlements? Here is a helpful map (large and detailed pdf). Keep in mind that the land slopes quite steeply from Jerusalem to Jericho, so any settlements annexed to Israel there pose an added inconvenience.

Do you mean UNHRC or UNHCR? The UNHRC doesn't actually do anything with respect to Israel, but makes lots of sternly worded letters. The UNHCR isn't relevant because the Palestinian refugees were created before it, and fall under the jurisdiction of UNRWA. Although I wouldn't mind shifting jurisdiction to UNHCR.

UNHRC is also bullshit.

I agree it's bullshit, but it's ineffective bullshit

Yes, but it's like watching a Michael Moore film. He may be obnoxious, but his points still stand.

Michael Moore is also a well known liar and propagandist, whose points are debunked often.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pqv5ABQP5U

If you don't trust Fox News on the basis of bias then you shouldn't trust Michael Moore.

Christopher Hitchens did a great job destroying Michael Moore. I'll provide an article when I can pull it up.

I always verify new information. And as far as the facts on the ground are concerned, Palestine is essentially a municipality under Israeli sovereignty. Taking this as a starting point, everything that enforces separation between Palestinians and Israelis (of which there are many) is apartheid.

[DogDoo 7]

I say we take off and nuke Israel from orbit...it's the only way to be sure.

Just give me time to put on my gas mask and get to a shelter. kthx

[DogDoo 7]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165830

What a stupid country. I'm going to eat extra flaky bourekas in Ramat Vishnitz (my local Haredi neighborhood) this year.

Israelis may not realize it, but during Passover, their water comes not from the Kinneret, but from underground wells. “It has been like this for years, and will continue this year,” said MK Moshe Gafni (United Torah Judaism).


In a letter to Gafni, Alexander Kushnir, the chairman of the Israel Water Authority, said that this year, as in years past, the Authority would stop pumping water from the Kinneret into the National Water Carrier three days before Passover. Instead, the Authority will pump water from underground wells into the water system.


In a request to Kushnir for clarification on the matter, Gafni said that in the past, many Israelis did not drink water from the tap out of fear that it contained chametz, the leavened material that is forbidden for consumption by Jews on Passover. “The fear is that chametz could be present because the Kinneret is an open body of water.” Pumping water from the underground wells, where it was far less likely that bread of other chametz could reach, was acceptable to everyone, Gafni said.


The Kinneret will “rest” throughout the holiday. Pumping of water from the large fresh water lake, via the National Water Carrier, will begin after Passover has passed.

[The Nuclear Fist]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165830

What a stupid country. I'm going to eat extra flaky bourekas in Ramat Vishnitz (my local Haredi neighborhood) this year.

Israelis may not realize it, but during Passover, their water comes not from the Kinneret, but from underground wells. “It has been like this for years, and will continue this year,” said MK Moshe Gafni (United Torah Judaism).


In a letter to Gafni, Alexander Kushnir, the chairman of the Israel Water Authority, said that this year, as in years past, the Authority would stop pumping water from the Kinneret into the National Water Carrier three days before Passover. Instead, the Authority will pump water from underground wells into the water system.


In a request to Kushnir for clarification on the matter, Gafni said that in the past, many Israelis did not drink water from the tap out of fear that it contained chametz, the leavened material that is forbidden for consumption by Jews on Passover. “The fear is that chametz could be present because the Kinneret is an open body of water.” Pumping water from the underground wells, where it was far less likely that bread of other chametz could reach, was acceptable to everyone, Gafni said.


The Kinneret will “rest” throughout the holiday. Pumping of water from the large fresh water lake, via the National Water Carrier, will begin after Passover has passed.

And to think that there are still places in the world where people don't have adequate supplies of clean water.

[DogDoo 7]

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/165830

What a stupid country. I'm going to eat extra flaky bourekas in Ramat Vishnitz (my local Haredi neighborhood) this year.

And to think that there are still places in the world where people don't have adequate supplies of clean water.

There are places IN ISRAEL where people don't have adequate supplies of clean water.

http://972mag.com/the-unequal-right-to-water-in-unrecognized-bedouin-villages/66932/

[The Nuclear Fist]

There are places IN ISRAEL where people don't have adequate supplies of clean water.

http://972mag.com/the-unequal-right-to-water-in-unrecognized-bedouin-villages/66932/

Don't you know anything, dear? Those are brown people, so they don't count. Everyone knows those 'Bedouins' (who are probably just made up, like Palestinians!) drink sand, and if they want water they can pick up their things and move to Jordan, which has no problems whatsoever and can clearly handle millions of immigrants without even the pretense of infrastructural strain.

[The Nuclear Fist]

Dog, the first sentence of that article sums up one the greatest ironies of the Israeli state, namely keeping minority groups in poverty and desperation for the benefit of the majority.

On February 20, the Israeli Supreme Court dismissed an appeal by residents of the unrecognized Bedouin village of Umm El-Hiran in the Naqab (Negev), demanding minimum access to drinking water. which holds 500 residents.

[DogDoo 7]

Dog, the first sentence of that article sums up one the greatest ironies of the Israeli state, namely keeping minority groups in poverty and desperation for the benefit of the majority.

On February 20, the Israeli Supreme Court dismissed an appeal by residents of the unrecognized Bedouin village of Umm El-Hiran in the Naqab (Negev), demanding minimum access to drinking water. which holds 500 residents.

It's sad that I've only lived here for a year and a half and I'm already jaded to such brazen acts of state-sponsored racism.

(this one deserves a careful read. it's about the same village)

In Israeli courts, the people of Umm al-Hieran, represented by Adalah – The Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, have established, and the state has acknowledged, that the village was created by military order in 1956. The people have established, and the state has acknowledged, that on August 28, 1957, the Israeli Military Government leased the Abu al-Qi’an tribe 7,000 dunums of land for residence, agriculture and grazing. The State Attorney, while conceding those facts, claimed that as they were Bedouin, the state expected them to “live under the stars” and not to build actual brick-and-mortar homes, which it considers illegal. In court last Thursday, Attorney Suhad Bishara of Adalah called this assumption “inhumane.”

[Ralkovia]

And to think that there are still places in the world where people don't have adequate supplies of clean water.

There are places IN ISRAEL where people don't have adequate supplies of clean water.

http://972mag.com/the-unequal-right-to-water-in-unrecognized-bedouin-villages/66932/

That, I don't like. The Bedouin fought on behalf of the Jews against the Palestinians and their allies. We should treat our friends with dignity and respect and treat our enemies like dogs.

[DogDoo 7]

There are places IN ISRAEL where people don't have adequate supplies of clean water.

http://972mag.com/the-unequal-right-to-water-in-unrecognized-bedouin-villages/66932/

That, I don't like. The Bedouin fought on behalf of the Jews against the Palestinians and their allies. We should treat our friends with dignity and respect and treat our enemies like dogs.

It must be so easy to live in such a black and white world, where "Bedouin" are completely distinct from "Palestinians" and one is allied with Israel and one fights against Israel. Some Bedouin serve in the IDF (for their language and tracking skills generally). Other Bedouin steal shit from Army bases and even other Bedouin were forward-spotting for Hamas during the last wave of violence to improve the accuracy of their rockets. And yet other Bedouin simply want to live as equal citizens of the State and maintain their traditional lifestyle.

I'm presuming that by "Palestinians" you mean Arab-Muslim villagers and city dwellers in both Israel and the West Bank. Some take up arms against the State. Some become lawyers to fight for civil rights. Some simply farm. Some go into business. Some throw rocks at settlers. Some try to make explosives. Some become PA police and arrest the people who make explosives. Like really, since when did this whole notion of a person being an individual disappear?

[Ralkovia]

That, I don't like. The Bedouin fought on behalf of the Jews against the Palestinians and their allies. We should treat our friends with dignity and respect and treat our enemies like dogs.

It must be so easy to live in such a black and white world, where "Bedouin" are completely distinct from "Palestinians" and one is allied with Israel and one fights against Israel. Some Bedouin serve in the IDF (for their language and tracking skills generally). Other Bedouin steal shit from Army bases and even other Bedouin were forward-spotting for Hamas during the last wave of violence to improve the accuracy of their rockets. And yet other Bedouin simply want to live as equal citizens of the State and maintain their traditional lifestyle.

I'm presuming that by "Palestinians" you mean Arab-Muslim villagers and city dwellers in both Israel and the West Bank. Some take up arms against the State. Some become lawyers to fight for civil rights. Some simply farm. Some go into business. Some throw rocks at settlers. Some try to make explosives. Some become PA police and arrest the people who make explosives. Like really, since when did this whole notion of a person being an individual disappear?

Because the individual disappears when you want to carpet bomb someone. As for the Bedouin living in the Negev, they were granted said land after supporting Israel in the 48 war or am I wrong?

[Azurand]

There are places IN ISRAEL where people don't have adequate supplies of clean water.

http://972mag.com/the-unequal-right-to-water-in-unrecognized-bedouin-villages/66932/

That, I don't like. The Bedouin fought on behalf of the Jews against the Palestinians and their allies. We should treat our friends with dignity and respect and treat our enemies like dogs.

I'm sure that you'd accept if your enemy treat yourself as dogs, correct?

Not a sarcastic question, because I do agree with you. Therefore, on my view, Bedouins are...

[Ralkovia]

That, I don't like. The Bedouin fought on behalf of the Jews against the Palestinians and their allies. We should treat our friends with dignity and respect and treat our enemies like dogs.

I'm sure that you'd accept if your enemy treat yourself as dogs, correct?

Not a sarcastic question, because I do agree with you. Therefore, on my view, Bedouins are...

If my enemy treated me as a dog it would be up to my enemy to treat me better. If we are at war, I owe him nothing and he owes me nothing. War is intended to be hell.

[DogDoo 7]

It must be so easy to live in such a black and white world, where "Bedouin" are completely distinct from "Palestinians" and one is allied with Israel and one fights against Israel. Some Bedouin serve in the IDF (for their language and tracking skills generally). Other Bedouin steal shit from Army bases and even other Bedouin were forward-spotting for Hamas during the last wave of violence to improve the accuracy of their rockets. And yet other Bedouin simply want to live as equal citizens of the State and maintain their traditional lifestyle.

I'm presuming that by "Palestinians" you mean Arab-Muslim villagers and city dwellers in both Israel and the West Bank. Some take up arms against the State. Some become lawyers to fight for civil rights. Some simply farm. Some go into business. Some throw rocks at settlers. Some try to make explosives. Some become PA police and arrest the people who make explosives. Like really, since when did this whole notion of a person being an individual disappear?

Because the individual disappears when you want to carpet bomb someone. As for the Bedouin living in the Negev, they were granted said land after supporting Israel in the 48 war or am I wrong?

But there are individual Bedouin who steal military equipment and help Hamas! Why should these people be rewarded?

Anyway, as far as being granted land, first of all, most Bedouin supported the Arab side. Secondly, what happened is that after 48, the military basically designated the triangular area between Arad, Yerucham, and Be'er Sheva as "Bedouin land." It forcibly expelled the Bedouin who were not expelled to the West Bank, Jordan, or Egypt to this area, nationalized their former lands, and built lots of nice jewish development towns there. In the mid 1950s, the government (or more accurately, the military) started allowing the Bedouin to live outside this area, without recognizing the resulting villages that were being created due to the phenomenal birthrate. In the 70s, the government was like "oh shit, they're everywhere" and started trying to herd them into planned cities. And that's basically where we are today. Most Bedouin live in unrecognized villages with absolutely no municipal infrastructure and some Bedouin live in 6 recognized villages and 1 recognized city with grossly substandard municipal infrastructure (although Rahat gets services comparable to other Arab settlements).

[The Nuclear Fist]

I'm sure that you'd accept if your enemy treat yourself as dogs, correct?

Not a sarcastic question, because I do agree with you. Therefore, on my view, Bedouins are...

If my enemy treated me as a dog it would be up to my enemy to treat me better. If we are at war, I owe him nothing and he owes me nothing. War is intended to be hell.

Has Ralkovia ever actually been at war? Has he lived in the conditions he so readily prescribes to others? Because it would seem to me that he has not.

[DogDoo 7]

http://972mag.com/a-new-low-police-claim-torching-of-palestinian-cars-was-fabricated/67107/

So much for the rule of law, guys.