Israel-Palestine conflict

[Ashkland]

Actually the Jews truly came from Iraq, then moved to Egypt. The Arabs were started by Hagar's son (Bastard son of Abram). So the Holy Land could be argued for the Arabs as well.

No, no:
[Genesis 17]
And God said, "Indeed, your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him.

[Genesis 19]
nd God said to Abraham, "Be not displeased concerning the lad and concerning your handmaid; whatever Sarah tells you, hearken to her voice, for in Isaac will be called your seed.

The point is, what he promised to Abraham (incl' the land of Israel) goes to Isaac, not Ishmael.

[DogDoo 7]

Is that any better than claiming it's ours because Abraham took a dump in Hebron?


that's what military occupation is for. except you can't use the territory and its resources for the exclusive gain of the occupying power


geopolitics doesn't work that way, good night /morbo


We came from Ur. So what?


Umm, you know that Oslo was basically a way for Israel to stop having to pretend to care about Palestinian infrastructure?


No. Native Americans CAN VOTE. Puerto Ricans and Guamanians have full citizenship. In fact the closest analogy we get here is people born to non-US Citizens on American Samoa, Swains Island, and the Minor Outlying Islands have US Nationality (so like non-racist versions of Palestinians from East Jerusalem. Oh yeah, and the US government won't bulldoze their house if they build an extra room without getting a permit, which is impossible to obtain. And the US government won't strip them of their nationality if they move to a different country). Try again.


Ok, just get the fuck out of my country. Go back to brooklyn, and eat the lox that I know you're missing so dearly.


Inshallah, we will be free from you.

A. It was our country for thousands of years until the siege on Jerusalem (70AD).
B. No it is not.
C. I don't care.
D. And from where did we come to Europe? From Judah.
E. Really? Because they had frontiers settlements and Indians didn't have the right to vote, they were not in a US state, but a territory, just like Israel.
F. I'm not from brooklyn but from Israel.
G. Don't have anything to say so you started wishing for my bad? That's sad.

A. No, it was not OUR country. It was THE HEBREWS' country. Then THEY lost it. Now it's OUR country.
B. Of course it is. What do you think Southern Lebanon between 1982-2000 was? That's also Biblically Eretz Yisrael btw. We didn't put settlements there though. And aside from a few (major) war crimes, we prosecuted the Occupation in complete accordance with the norms and standards set forth by a document that we AGREED to.
C. It would be funny, except there's quite a lot of you, so it's just depressing.
D. Yeah, lots of people have been here and had kingdoms here. The Hebrews weren't the first, and we won't be the last.
E. It took quite some time, but we fixed our shit. Israel has had 45 years to fix its balagan.
F. But there are communities in Brooklyn where there are ONLY Ashkenazi Jews (like super Ashkenazi, they all have Tay-Sachs and say Shabbes instead of Shabbat).
G. I'm not wishing anything to personally befall you, just that your people are no longer relevant to the political discussion (unless you get power somehow, then I'll pull a Bibi.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

For God's sake, that is not THEIR land but OURS.
I don't get it why they claim one territory is theirs because Ahmed's camel pooped there once.
One state or Two states are both terrible ideas, when a multinational state is the worst.
This land is ours and ours only, since the time of the Bible.
THEY came from the Arabian peninsula, they don't even belong here.
And if it was not for our "occupation", they would probably be living is Hamasland, when died out of hunger.
With your logic, the US needs to be demolished, AND, they had their own settlements in the west, except ours are legitimate as it is originally our land.
AND they shall not be able able to vote as this is a JEWISH, repeating JEWISH country and Gentiles need to stay out of it.
So I'm nice, I'm saying they can stay in the Triangle, A and B, under military control, and believe me, that's a nice thing.
If it was about right and wrong, they shall have been banished entirely.

Isreal is and always will be a SECULAR STATE. Meaning it is NOT JEWISH. Also the Ottoman Empire had control of Palestine for hundreds of years. So the Arabic people in Palestine have a right to live in Palestine.

Israel is a secular Jewish country. Just like America is a secular Christian country.

[Byeloukraina]

Isreal is and always will be a SECULAR STATE. Meaning it is NOT JEWISH. Also the Ottoman Empire had control of Palestine for hundreds of years. So the Arabic people in Palestine have a right to live in Palestine.

Israel is a secular Jewish country. Just like America is a secular Christian country.

Sounds like bullshit a religious person says to support his personal nationalism. Both Israel and USA are secular countries by policy.

[DogDoo 7]

Isreal is and always will be a SECULAR STATE. Meaning it is NOT JEWISH. Also the Ottoman Empire had control of Palestine for hundreds of years. So the Arabic people in Palestine have a right to live in Palestine.

Israel is a secular Jewish country. Just like America is a secular Christian country.

Not even close. We're just as or more theocratic as all of our neighbors (with the exception of Saudi Arabia and Yemen)

[Ashkland]

Isreal is and always will be a SECULAR STATE. Meaning it is NOT JEWISH. Also the Ottoman Empire had control of Palestine for hundreds of years. So the Arabic people in Palestine have a right to live in Palestine.

Israel is a Jewish state, US isn't offically christian, but de facto.

Israel is a secular Jewish country. Just like America is a secular Christian country.

[DogDoo 7]

Israel is a secular Jewish country. Just like America is a secular Christian country.

Sounds like bullshit a religious person says to support his personal nationalism. Both Israel and USA are secular countries by policy.

We (Israel) are? Then why can't I catch a train from Friday evening to Saturday evening?

[Ashkland]

Israel is a secular Jewish country. Just like America is a secular Christian country.

Not even close. We're just as or more theocratic as all of our neighbors (with the exception of Saudi Arabia and Yemen)

Nonsense.

[Byeloukraina]

Sounds like bullshit a religious person says to support his personal nationalism. Both Israel and USA are secular countries by policy.

We (Israel) are? Then why can't I catch a train from Friday evening to Saturday evening?

I am allowed to train whichever religion I wish in Israel, thus it is secular. However, even countries like Finland and Norway still have religion-based laws.

[DogDoo 7]

Not even close. We're just as or more theocratic as all of our neighbors (with the exception of Saudi Arabia and Yemen)

Nonsense.

Let's see:
Oman-no alcohol. We don't have buses or trains on Saturday
Jordan-no Muslim women marrying non-Muslim men. Same here!
Lebanon-actually, we're far more theocratic than Lebanon. We're a Jewish State. Lebanon is a no-religion state.
Egypt-pogroms against Christians. Here-settlers pogrom Palestinians
Syria-well, we'll see about that one, but whatever you say about Assad, he kept everything secular
UAE-no PDA. Here, no women with tefillin at the kotel.
Turkey-until very recently, hijabs were BANNED in public buildings. Here, I don't think swinging a live chicken around your head and then killing it is going to be banned anytime soon.

[DogDoo 7]

We (Israel) are? Then why can't I catch a train from Friday evening to Saturday evening?

I am allowed to train whichever religion I wish in Israel, thus it is secular. However, even countries like Finland and Norway still have religion-based laws.

No, I mean the literal trains (like choo-choo public transport) stop working on Shabbat because god said it's bad to light fires during that time.

[Divair]

I am allowed to train whichever religion I wish in Israel, thus it is secular. However, even countries like Finland and Norway still have religion-based laws.

No, I mean the literal trains (like choo-choo public transport) stop working on Shabbat because god said it's bad to light fires during that time.

Don't forget that elevators must stop on every floor because god forbids Jews from working.

[DogDoo 7]

No, I mean the literal trains (like choo-choo public transport) stop working on Shabbat because god said it's bad to light fires during that time.

Don't forget that elevators must stop on every floor because god forbids Jews from working.

I forgot about that one. Reason #452 why Haifa >>> rest of Israel: mandatory short buildings on the Carmel.

[DogDoo 7]

Far be it from me to gloat in another's downfall, but I just saw that nicerPLO has a 3 day forumban. So we can discuss all sorts of interesting things without getting sucked into his stupid "Hashemite Occupation of Jordan" thing.

Actually, it is true that the Hashemites were basically exiled to Jordan after the Saudis took control of the country that's now named after them, but that obviously has no bearing on the fact that Jordanians (pretty much all of whom are non-Hashemites) have a right to their country.

Anyway, here is an interesting article for discussion.

Also, this one.

[Ashkland]

Far be it from me to gloat in another's downfall, but I just saw that nicerPLO has a 3 day forumban. So we can discuss all sorts of interesting things without getting sucked into his stupid "Hashemite Occupation of Jordan" thing.

Actually, it is true that the Hashemites were basically exiled to Jordan after the Saudis took control of the country that's now named after them, but that obviously has no bearing on the fact that Jordanians (pretty much all of whom are non-Hashemites) have a right to their country.

Anyway, here is an interesting article for discussion.

Also, this one.

Wait, you are in a website called Electronic Intifada?
Seriously man? That's where you find your information?
If so, I see now why are you a far-left.

[DogDoo 7]

Far be it from me to gloat in another's downfall, but I just saw that nicerPLO has a 3 day forumban. So we can discuss all sorts of interesting things without getting sucked into his stupid "Hashemite Occupation of Jordan" thing.

Actually, it is true that the Hashemites were basically exiled to Jordan after the Saudis took control of the country that's now named after them, but that obviously has no bearing on the fact that Jordanians (pretty much all of whom are non-Hashemites) have a right to their country.

Anyway, here is an interesting article for discussion.

Also, this one.

Wait, you are in a website called Electronic Intifada?
Seriously man? That's where you find your information?
If so, I see now why are you a far-left.

What do you mean, "in a website?" I read this, yes. I also read Arutz Sheva, ynet, 972, haaretz (when it's free), Times of Israel, Ma'an, and JPost (sparingly). I don't agree with Ali-Abunimah that much (especially with his lack of legitimizing the presence of Israelis here), but both of these stories are quite interesting, and I think deserves discussion.

I know your narrative, and I know the traditional Zionist narrative. But I don't think you have any clue about narratives besides your own (and that is the difference between me, and most of the people in this country and it's occupied territories .

[Divair]

Kerry and Abbas are holding a meeting in Saudi Arabia to discuss the peace process.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east ... m-1.507101

Bibi visited Jordan secretly to discuss the peace process.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.506763

Gaza protesters shot across the border. IDF retaliated and wounded three.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.506698

[DogDoo 7]

Kerry and Abbas are holding a meeting in Saudi Arabia to discuss the peace process.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/middle-east ... m-1.507101

guyz...at least LOOK like you're talking. Or else my boss looks bad.

Bibi visited Jordan secretly to discuss the peace process.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... s-1.506763

Psst...so, how about that Allon Plan?

Gaza protesters shot across the border. IDF retaliated and wounded three.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-d ... m-1.506698

They shouldn't call people who shoot guns "protestors." They're "militants." Yet another instance of even the left in Israel muddying the line between nonviolent and violent resistance. (Do you have the Hebrew language version of the article?)

[Fedeledland]

Actually the Jews truly came from Iraq, then moved to Egypt. The Arabs were started by Hagar's son (Bastard son of Abram). So the Holy Land could be argued for the Arabs as well.

Most modern historians agree that the Jews started in the Arabian Peninsula, then moved north to the Fertile Crescent and then west to a not-so-fertile land, and that is why they survived and the Akkadians/Sabaeans/Sumerians/Copts didn't.

[Rainbows and Rivers]

A. It was our country for thousands of years until the siege on Jerusalem (70AD).

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has run out on that one.

Nothing personal, it's just that allowing people to claim land that may have belonged to their distant ancestors more than one generation ago would have negative implications for the country I find myself living in.

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

A. It was our country for thousands of years until the siege on Jerusalem (70AD).

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has run out on that one.

Nothing personal, it's just that allowing people to claim land that may have belonged to their distant ancestors more than one generation ago would have negative implications for the country I find myself living in.

But that's true for most of the nations, no?

[DogDoo 7]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has run out on that one.

Nothing personal, it's just that allowing people to claim land that may have belonged to their distant ancestors more than one generation ago would have negative implications for the country I find myself living in.

But that's true for most of the nations, no?

That's why religious texts make for bad geopolitics.

Anyway, if you were King of the UN, what would be your solution? dontsaypalestineisjordandontsaypalestineisjordandontsaypalestineisjordan

I'm sorry for being so forthright, I don't like talking about solutions (mostly because they all depress me in some way) and Tmut already convinced me of the initial blame the Palestinians have for taking up arms first.

[Rainbows and Rivers]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the statute of limitations has run out on that one.

Nothing personal, it's just that allowing people to claim land that may have belonged to their distant ancestors more than one generation ago would have negative implications for the country I find myself living in.

But that's true for most of the nations, no?

Exactly. Heck, I think the creation of Israel was a bad idea in the first place, but at this point I would oppose any attempt to undo it just because of the people who were born there and lived there their whole lives. So you can imagine the degree to which I oppose the idea that Israel itself has the right to move people out of their houses based on a 2,000 year old claim.

Anyway, if you were King of the UN, what would be your solution?

Struggle through with the current situation. Accept that by the time this is all over Israel will most likely end up with the whole of Jerusalem. Keep things in an uneasy suspense punctuated by occasional conflict until either a Palestinian authority arises which can honestly guarantee that if Israel withdraws from the occupied zones it won't get attacked or else someone invents a way to generate enough cheap energy to practice desalinization on mass scales. I imagine getting rid of water scarcity might go some way to resolving the crisis.

[DogDoo 7]

But that's true for most of the nations, no?

Exactly. Heck, I think the creation of Israel was a bad idea in the first place, but at this point I would oppose any attempt to undo it just because of the people who were born there and lived there their whole lives. So you can imagine the degree to which I oppose the idea that Israel itself has the right to move people out of their houses based on a 2,000 year old claim.

you'd think this would be more discredited...

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

But that's true for most of the nations, no?

That's why religious texts make for bad geopolitics.

Anyway, if you were King of the UN, what would be your solution? dontsaypalestineisjordandontsaypalestineisjordandontsaypalestineisjordan

I'm sorry for being so forthright, I don't like talking about solutions (mostly because they all depress me in some way) and Tmut already convinced me of the initial blame the Palestinians have for taking up arms first.

I am actually a strong advocate for a two state solution, but I would like to incorporate settlements and Jerusalem into Israel.
(Since we are speaking fantastically, I would reform security council and UNHRC before doing anything.)