Israel-Palestine conflict

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q= ... 0785248054

You do know that "Palestine Mandate" refers to a policy-not the geographical region, right?

Also, that is not a period map, once again. It appears to be a map created some time after the fact for a paper on the subject, discussing the area that the Mandate covered. It is not, in any case, from the period.

Find me an actual map from the time period. Now.

First off-CALM DOWN
Second-How do you know that map isn't accurate?

[Xathranaar]

You do know that "Palestine Mandate" refers to a policy-not the geographical region, right?

Also, that is not a period map, once again. It appears to be a map created some time after the fact for a paper on the subject, discussing the area that the Mandate covered. It is not, in any case, from the period.

Find me an actual map from the time period. Now.

First off-CALM DOWN

You're the only one yelling, dipshit.

Second-How do you know that map isn't accurate?

You linked to the map as evidence. People point out that it is obviously not evidence of anything. You attempt to shift the burden of proof by arguing that it is their job to prove your non-evidence wrong.

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

[Seangoli]

You do know that "Palestine Mandate" refers to a policy-not the geographical region, right?

Also, that is not a period map, once again. It appears to be a map created some time after the fact for a paper on the subject, discussing the area that the Mandate covered. It is not, in any case, from the period.

Find me an actual map from the time period. Now.

First off-CALM DOWN
Second-How do you know that map isn't accurate?

First off- How am I not calm in that post?
Second off- I never said the map wasn't accurate. I said two things: First off, the Mandate was not the name of the geographical region. It is also not a map from the time period. You are demanding us show you a map from the actual time period, so I am doing the same. I am holding you to the same exact rubric that you are holding everyone else to.

Show me, if you are so confident you are right, a map created prior to 1923 that shows Palestine including the majority of Jordan. Not a sliver, not a tiny bit, but stretching all the way to Iraq as you so readily claim. If you are so confident that the Mandate said this at all, at any point in time, show me an actual map created prior to 1923 that shows the entire area being labeled as Palestine.

We have shown you more than enough period maps to prove our point, its time for you to pony up and do the same. All you've done is show maps created in modern times. I want you to show me an actual map from the period here. You demanded it of us, which we did in spades, now it is time for YOU to do the same.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

You linked to the map as evidence. People point out that it is obviously not evidence of anything. You attempt to shift the burden of proof by arguing that it is their job to prove your non-evidence wrong.

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

I provide a map proving my point
He provides no reason for why it's incorrect except "It was made recently". Yeah my map of America that's in my room was made5 years ago, but that doesn't mean the map is incorrect.

[Xathranaar]

You linked to the map as evidence. People point out that it is obviously not evidence of anything. You attempt to shift the burden of proof by arguing that it is their job to prove your non-evidence wrong.

And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

I provide a map proving my point
He provides no reason for why it's incorrect except "It was made recently". Yeah my map of America that's in my room was made5 years ago, but that doesn't mean the map is incorrect.

All this is is a map of two nations with the border between them erased. Anyone could have made it. It is not proof, nor anything like proof.

Look, if I were arguing that the Dakotas properly belong to Minnesota, and wanted to use a map as evidence, I would provide something like this:

What you provided basically amounts to this:

If you don't see the difference, and I'm sorry but I can't be nice about this, you're a goddamn idiot.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

No. It's supposed to be a conversation between sane people who understand the situation, not extremists or foreigners who haven't even visited the region, let alone understand it.

Who YOU ARE to say who's opinions are valid, and who's are invalid? If may I ask?

That's Divair for you.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

Juea and Samaria ARE Israel's territory. Saying that Judea and Samaria aren't Israel's is like sayig that Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland aren't part of Britian.

Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland are recognized as part of the United Kingdom by every national government on the planet Earth. Do you know how many government recognized Judea and Samaria as part of Israel? Zero-- that's right, not even Israel's government. Israel has annexed the Golan Heights and the Jerusalem Zone, but if Israel annexed the West Bank, that would mean granting citizenship to the inhabitants.

Israel can't annex the whole of the West Bank until most Palestinians leave for Palestine(Jordan).

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

Only as an alternative to violent opposition. MLK worked because there were also the Black Panthers.

As someone who lived through the times,

How old are you?

[DogDoo 7]

As someone who lived through the times,

How old are you?

Old enough to not continuously beat a deceased equine. We had a solid 10 page or so argument where both of us learned new facts and narratives, because we're critical-thinking adults who are able to discern between truth, bullshit, and stuff that could go either way. Now STOP THE JORDAN = PALESTINE SHTICK

[Seangoli]

Northern Ireland, Wales, and Scotland are recognized as part of the United Kingdom by every national government on the planet Earth. Do you know how many government recognized Judea and Samaria as part of Israel? Zero-- that's right, not even Israel's government. Israel has annexed the Golan Heights and the Jerusalem Zone, but if Israel annexed the West Bank, that would mean granting citizenship to the inhabitants.

Israel can't annex the whole of the West Bank until most Palestinians leave for Palestine(Jordan).

And if it ever came to that, then Israel deserves everything and more that it will have coming to it. Forcibly removing millions of people from their homes and forcing them on a death march into a land where the remaining few will assuredly die is about a close a reason as any to utterly and completely destroy the regime, the people who support the regime, and any and all remnants of such a vile schemos.

The fact that you insist, with absolutely no good reason, that the Paletinians would leave voluntarily is hardly justification. If you are sincere in these thought, I have very little doubt in my mind that you actually believe they would refuse to leave. Rather its a ruse to get away with the cleansing of millions of people from the Israeli populace.

Further, let's even assume that your bafflingly false assertion that the British Mandate labeled the entire region as Palestine(It didn't-It was made quite clear by the Mandate that Palestine and Transjordan were entirely seperate entities by the language involved with what the mandate actually said_, but let's just assume you are correct that the British labeled the entire region as Palestine.

This would mean that for an entire span of five years, the entirety of the land was labeled Palestine. Prior to this, every single historical source place Palestine as being west of the river, or *at most* encompasses a sparse few miles to the east. I have yet to find any historical source prior to the British Mandate which could even be *stretched* to that.

What you are effectively saying is that a paltry 5 years in the early part of the 20th century has effectively erased two and a half millenia of written history on the subject. Unless you can provide some sort of compelling evidence that Palestine somehow encompasses the majority of modern day Jordan for any significant period of history (Of which a 5 year span is most certainly not), then your entire argument falls flat. You are basing your ludicrous ideas off of the idea that an entire ethnic group and historical background of a people arose from the span of when you were first in diapers to the point where you were first learning how to read. Do you have any idea how completely... well... idiotic it is? To define a people based on one five year period?

[DogDoo 7]

GUYS THERE'S LOTS TO DISCUSS BESIDES FORCED DEATH MARCHES AND EXPELLING PEOPLE FROM THEIR HOMES

Like, the fact that Israel is basically 1960s Alabama.



Oh yeah, let's not forget about Separate Buses

I'm actually mixed on this point. Yeah, apartheid is horrible, end the occupation, etc. But if we're going to require Palestinians to use separate checkpoints, then why not have buses serving those checkpoints? Apartheid is terrible, but at least it can be convenient apartheid (since the occupation/colonization/ethnocracy shows no signs of stopping).

[Seangoli]

GUYS THERE'S LOTS TO DISCUSS BESIDES FORCED DEATH MARCHES AND EXPELLING PEOPLE FROM THEIR HOMES
*snip*.

Any background information on the picture.

Also, its good to see that "Separate but equal" is alive and well in the world. It's only been nearly half a century since we in the US did away with it, and by golly Israel is a shining example that we should go back to it post-haste. Obviously any modern day democracy would implement such a plan. I mean, black people were and are reported as a security risk, gosh-darn-it.

That said, have there been any actual legitimate threats from the bus travelers? I would assume that in order to get such a permit to travel into Israel, you would need one hell of a lengthy background check done on you, your family, your friends, your acquaintances and probably your pet dog too. I would have to imagine that the security risk by those who ride the bus line would have to be pretty low, if not non-existent.

[Ashkland]

How old are you?

Old enough to not continuously beat a deceased equine. We had a solid 10 page or so argument where both of us learned new facts and narratives, because we're critical-thinking adults who are able to discern between truth, bullshit, and stuff that could go either way. Now STOP THE JORDAN = PALESTINE SHTICK

Really? You are talking like a 3 year old:
'I want world peace, and everyone hugging everyone, and that there will be no starving people and have fun all the time.'
Although you didn't say that, that is pretty much the same stuff:
'When we let them have a country, everything will be perfect' thing.

There will be no peace with, the "Palestinians", you can't reason with them.
It's or US, or THEM. That's it.

[DogDoo 7]

GUYS THERE'S LOTS TO DISCUSS BESIDES FORCED DEATH MARCHES AND EXPELLING PEOPLE FROM THEIR HOMES
*snip*.

Any background information on the picture.

Also, its good to see that "Separate but equal" is alive and well in the world. It's only been nearly half a century since we in the US did away with it, and by golly Israel is a shining example that we should go back to it post-haste. Obviously any modern day democracy would implement such a plan. I mean, black people were and are reported as a security risk, gosh-darn-it.

That said, have there been any actual legitimate threats from the bus travelers? I would assume that in order to get such a permit to travel into Israel, you would need one hell of a lengthy background check done on you, your family, your friends, your acquaintances and probably your pet dog too. I would have to imagine that the security risk by those who ride the bus line would have to be pretty low, if not non-existent.

http://972mag.com/why-is-a-border-policeman-shaking-hands-with-a-masked-settler/67027/

http://972mag.com/palestinian-employment-in-israel-and-settlements-restrictive-policies-abuse-of-rights/58524/ This report is a VERY interesting/depressing read if you have the chance. It talks about the permit system for workers. The permit process really varies from person to person and from investigator to investigator. My friends don't seem to have too much trouble getting one if it's for an "educational" purpose. I haven't heard of any incidents on buses (just like how settlers and palestinians are surprisingly courteous drivers with each other on the West Bank highways (when they're not throwing rocks at each other's cars that is)). The motivation is pure racism (especially when traveling from Israel to the West Bank), but the outcome is better than the current situation.

[DogDoo 7]

Old enough to not continuously beat a deceased equine. We had a solid 10 page or so argument where both of us learned new facts and narratives, because we're critical-thinking adults who are able to discern between truth, bullshit, and stuff that could go either way. Now STOP THE JORDAN = PALESTINE SHTICK

Really? You are talking like a 3 year old:
'I want world peace, and everyone hugging everyone, and that there will be no starving people and have fun all the time.'
Although you didn't say that, that is pretty much the same stuff:
'When we let them have a country, everything will be perfect' thing.

There will be no peace with, the "Palestinians", you can't reason with them.
It's or US, or THEM. That's it.

You can argue that point without saying that Jordan=Palestine. (In fact, you didn't even mention it)

Anyway, I'm not naive enough to think that things would be perfect (and if you actually read what I wrote, I'm officially agnostic as to one-state or two-states, though I lean towards one-state). World Peace != settlement AND occupation. That's REALLY NOT OK. If the Palestinians are so dangerous that we have to impose martial law on them, THEN WE CAN'T PUT CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE TERRITORY THAT DENOTES WHERE THEY LIVE. If it is so important to put civilian infrastructure there, THEN WE CAN'T IMPOSE MARTIAL LAW ON ONE ETHNIC GROUP OF THAT TERRITORY AND DENY THEM SUFFRAGE.

Fucking CHOOSE. And choose NOW. BEFORE enough of me are able to choose FOR YOU.

[Ashkland]

Really? You are talking like a 3 year old:
'I want world peace, and everyone hugging everyone, and that there will be no starving people and have fun all the time.'
Although you didn't say that, that is pretty much the same stuff:
'When we let them have a country, everything will be perfect' thing.

There will be no peace with, the "Palestinians", you can't reason with them.
It's or US, or THEM. That's it.

You can argue that point without saying that Jordan=Palestine. (In fact, you didn't even mention it)

I was talking in general that you actually believe that giving them part of your country will make peace.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

Israel can't annex the whole of the West Bank until most Palestinians leave for Palestine(Jordan).

And if it ever came to that, then Israel deserves everything and more that it will have coming to it. Forcibly removing millions of people from their homes and forcing them on a death march into a land where the remaining few will assuredly die is about a close a reason as any to utterly and completely destroy the regime, the people who support the regime, and any and all remnants of such a vile schemos.

The fact that you insist, with absolutely no good reason, that the Paletinians would leave voluntarily is hardly justification. If you are sincere in these thought, I have very little doubt in my mind that you actually believe they would refuse to leave. Rather its a ruse to get away with the cleansing of millions of people from the Israeli populace.

Further, let's even assume that your bafflingly false assertion that the British Mandate labeled the entire region as Palestine(It didn't-It was made quite clear by the Mandate that Palestine and Transjordan were entirely seperate entities by the language involved with what the mandate actually said_, but let's just assume you are correct that the British labeled the entire region as Palestine.

This would mean that for an entire span of five years, the entirety of the land was labeled Palestine. Prior to this, every single historical source place Palestine as being west of the river, or *at most* encompasses a sparse few miles to the east. I have yet to find any historical source prior to the British Mandate which could even be *stretched* to that.

What you are effectively saying is that a paltry 5 years in the early part of the 20th century has effectively erased two and a half millenia of written history on the subject. Unless you can provide some sort of compelling evidence that Palestine somehow encompasses the majority of modern day Jordan for any significant period of history (Of which a 5 year span is most certainly not), then your entire argument falls flat. You are basing your ludicrous ideas off of the idea that an entire ethnic group and historical background of a people arose from the span of when you were first in diapers to the point where you were first learning how to read. Do you have any idea how completely... well... idiotic it is? To define a people based on one five year period?

What I was trying to do was move the conversation back west of the river. Now can we talk about how annexing the whole of the west bank by Israel would be a terrible idea if all those Palestinians were still there.

[DogDoo 7]

You can argue that point without saying that Jordan=Palestine. (In fact, you didn't even mention it)

I was talking in general that you actually believe that giving them part of your country will make peace.

Again, for emphasis.

Anyway, I'm not naive enough to think that things would be perfect (and if you actually read what I wrote, I'm officially agnostic as to one-state or two-states, though I lean towards one-state). World Peace != settlement AND occupation. That's REALLY NOT OK. If the Palestinians are so dangerous that we have to impose martial law on them, THEN WE CAN'T PUT CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE TERRITORY THAT DENOTES WHERE THEY LIVE. If it is so important to put civilian infrastructure there, THEN WE CAN'T IMPOSE MARTIAL LAW ON ONE ETHNIC GROUP OF THAT TERRITORY AND DENY THEM SUFFRAGE.

Fucking CHOOSE. And choose NOW. BEFORE enough of US are able to choose FOR YOU.

[Ashkland]

I was talking in general that you actually believe that giving them part of your country will make peace.

Again, for emphasis.

Anyway, I'm not naive enough to think that things would be perfect (and if you actually read what I wrote, I'm officially agnostic as to one-state or two-states, though I lean towards one-state). World Peace != settlement AND occupation. That's REALLY NOT OK. If the Palestinians are so dangerous that we have to impose martial law on them, THEN WE CAN'T PUT CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE TERRITORY THAT DENOTES WHERE THEY LIVE. If it is so important to put civilian infrastructure there, THEN WE CAN'T IMPOSE MARTIAL LAW ON ONE ETHNIC GROUP OF THAT TERRITORY AND DENY THEM SUFFRAGE.

Fucking CHOOSE. And choose NOW. BEFORE enough of US are able to choose FOR YOU.

For God's sake, that is not THEIR land but OURS.
I don't get it why they claim one territory is theirs because Ahmed's camel pooped there once.
One state or Two states are both terrible ideas, when a multinational state is the worst.
This land is ours and ours only, since the time of the Bible.
THEY came from the Arabian peninsula, they don't even belong here.
And if it was not for our "occupation", they would probably be living is Hamasland, when died out of hunger.
With your logic, the US needs to be demolished, AND, they had their own settlements in the west, except ours are legitimate as it is originally our land.
AND they shall not be able able to vote as this is a JEWISH, repeating JEWISH country and Gentiles need to stay out of it.
So I'm nice, I'm saying they can stay in the Triangle, A and B, under military control, and believe me, that's a nice thing.
If it was about right and wrong, they shall have been banished entirely.

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

I was talking in general that you actually believe that giving them part of your country will make peace.

Again, for emphasis.

Anyway, I'm not naive enough to think that things would be perfect (and if you actually read what I wrote, I'm officially agnostic as to one-state or two-states, though I lean towards one-state). World Peace != settlement AND occupation. That's REALLY NOT OK. If the Palestinians are so dangerous that we have to impose martial law on them, THEN WE CAN'T PUT CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE TERRITORY THAT DENOTES WHERE THEY LIVE. If it is so important to put civilian infrastructure there, THEN WE CAN'T IMPOSE MARTIAL LAW ON ONE ETHNIC GROUP OF THAT TERRITORY AND DENY THEM SUFFRAGE.

Fucking CHOOSE. And choose NOW. BEFORE enough of US are able to choose FOR YOU.

Lose the settlements vs lose Israel's Jewish identity-THE SETTLEMENTS CAN GO.

[Union of Democratic Socialists]

You do know that "Palestine Mandate" refers to a policy-not the geographical region, right?

Also, that is not a period map, once again. It appears to be a map created some time after the fact for a paper on the subject, discussing the area that the Mandate covered. It is not, in any case, from the period.

Find me an actual map from the time period. Now.

First off-CALM DOWN
Second-How do you know that map isn't accurate?

Caps lock is like YELLING.

[Union of Democratic Socialists]

Again, for emphasis.

Anyway, I'm not naive enough to think that things would be perfect (and if you actually read what I wrote, I'm officially agnostic as to one-state or two-states, though I lean towards one-state). World Peace != settlement AND occupation. That's REALLY NOT OK. If the Palestinians are so dangerous that we have to impose martial law on them, THEN WE CAN'T PUT CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE TERRITORY THAT DENOTES WHERE THEY LIVE. If it is so important to put civilian infrastructure there, THEN WE CAN'T IMPOSE MARTIAL LAW ON ONE ETHNIC GROUP OF THAT TERRITORY AND DENY THEM SUFFRAGE.

Fucking CHOOSE. And choose NOW. BEFORE enough of US are able to choose FOR YOU.

For God's sake, that is not THEIR land but OURS.
I don't get it why they claim one territory is theirs because Ahmed's camel pooped there once.
One state or Two states are both terrible ideas, when a multinational state is the worst.
This land is ours and ours only, since the time of the Bible.
THEY came from the Arabian peninsula, they don't even belong here.
And if it was not for our "occupation", they would probably be living is Hamasland, when died out of hunger.
With your logic, the US needs to be demolished, AND, they had their own settlements in the west, except ours are legitimate as it is originally our land.
AND they shall not be able able to vote as this is a JEWISH, repeating JEWISH country and Gentiles need to stay out of it.
So I'm nice, I'm saying they can stay in the Triangle, A and B, under military control, and believe me, that's a nice thing.
If it was about right and wrong, they shall have been banished entirely.

Isreal is and always will be a SECULAR STATE. Meaning it is NOT JEWISH. Also the Ottoman Empire had control of Palestine for hundreds of years. So the Arabic people in Palestine have a right to live in Palestine.

[DogDoo 7]

Again, for emphasis.

Anyway, I'm not naive enough to think that things would be perfect (and if you actually read what I wrote, I'm officially agnostic as to one-state or two-states, though I lean towards one-state). World Peace != settlement AND occupation. That's REALLY NOT OK. If the Palestinians are so dangerous that we have to impose martial law on them, THEN WE CAN'T PUT CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE IN THE TERRITORY THAT DENOTES WHERE THEY LIVE. If it is so important to put civilian infrastructure there, THEN WE CAN'T IMPOSE MARTIAL LAW ON ONE ETHNIC GROUP OF THAT TERRITORY AND DENY THEM SUFFRAGE.

Fucking CHOOSE. And choose NOW. BEFORE enough of US are able to choose FOR YOU.

For God's sake, that is not THEIR land but OURS.
I don't get it why they claim one territory is theirs because Ahmed's camel pooped there once.

Is that any better than claiming it's ours because Abraham took a dump in Hebron?

One state or Two states are both terrible ideas, when a multinational state is the worst.

that's what military occupation is for. except you can't use the territory and its resources for the exclusive gain of the occupying power

This land is ours and ours only, since the time of the Bible.

geopolitics doesn't work that way, good night /morbo

THEY came from the Arabian peninsula, they don't even belong here.

We came from Ur. So what?

And if it was not for our "occupation", they would probably be living is Hamasland, when died out of hunger.

Umm, you know that Oslo was basically a way for Israel to stop having to pretend to care about Palestinian infrastructure?

With your logic, the US needs to be demolished, AND, they had their own settlements in the west, except ours are legitimate as it is originally our land.

No. Native Americans CAN VOTE. Puerto Ricans and Guamanians have full citizenship. In fact the closest analogy we get here is people born to non-US Citizens on American Samoa, Swains Island, and the Minor Outlying Islands have US Nationality (so like non-racist versions of Palestinians from East Jerusalem. Oh yeah, and the US government won't bulldoze their house if they build an extra room without getting a permit, which is impossible to obtain. And the US government won't strip them of their nationality if they move to a different country). Try again.

AND they shall not be able able to vote as this is a JEWISH, repeating JEWISH country and Gentiles need to stay out of it.

Ok, just get the fuck out of my country. Go back to brooklyn, and eat the lox that I know you're missing so dearly.

So I'm nice, I'm saying they can stay in the Triangle, A and B, under military control, and believe me, that's a nice thing.
If it was about right and wrong, they shall have been banished entirely.

Inshallah, we will be free from you.

[Ashkland]

For God's sake, that is not THEIR land but OURS.
I don't get it why they claim one territory is theirs because Ahmed's camel pooped there once.

Is that any better than claiming it's ours because Abraham took a dump in Hebron?

One state or Two states are both terrible ideas, when a multinational state is the worst.

that's what military occupation is for. except you can't use the territory and its resources for the exclusive gain of the occupying power

This land is ours and ours only, since the time of the Bible.

geopolitics doesn't work that way, good night /morbo

THEY came from the Arabian peninsula, they don't even belong here.

We came from Ur. So what?

And if it was not for our "occupation", they would probably be living is Hamasland, when died out of hunger.

Umm, you know that Oslo was basically a way for Israel to stop having to pretend to care about Palestinian infrastructure?

With your logic, the US needs to be demolished, AND, they had their own settlements in the west, except ours are legitimate as it is originally our land.

No. Native Americans CAN VOTE. Puerto Ricans and Guamanians have full citizenship. In fact the closest analogy we get here is people born to non-US Citizens on American Samoa, Swains Island, and the Minor Outlying Islands have US Nationality (so like non-racist versions of Palestinians from East Jerusalem. Oh yeah, and the US government won't bulldoze their house if they build an extra room without getting a permit, which is impossible to obtain. And the US government won't strip them of their nationality if they move to a different country). Try again.

AND they shall not be able able to vote as this is a JEWISH, repeating JEWISH country and Gentiles need to stay out of it.

Ok, just get the fuck out of my country. Go back to brooklyn, and eat the lox that I know you're missing so dearly.

So I'm nice, I'm saying they can stay in the Triangle, A and B, under military control, and believe me, that's a nice thing.
If it was about right and wrong, they shall have been banished entirely.

Inshallah, we will be free from you.

A. It was our country for thousands of years until the siege on Jerusalem (70AD).
B. No it is not.
C. I don't care.
D. And from where did we come to Europe? From Judah.
E. Really? Because they had frontiers settlements and Indians didn't have the right to vote, they were not in a US state, but a territory, just like Israel.
F. I'm not from brooklyn but from Israel.
G. Don't have anything to say so you started wishing for my bad? That's sad.

[Union of Democratic Socialists]

Actually the Jews truly came from Iraq, then moved to Egypt. The Arabs were started by Hagar's son (Bastard son of Abram). So the Holy Land could be argued for the Arabs as well.