New Mexico Shooting, 5 dead, 15 year old arrested

[Gauntleted Fist]

Indeed, and all gun-control does is ensure that the wrong hands are the only ones with the gun.

Well, I was originally joking with the fantasy world thing, but I see this conversation will produce no real results according to this statement. Have fun with the circle jerk.

[Big Jim P]

Guns don't enable crime.

Really. I guess we're just talking about a fantasy world when we talk about gun crime.

They are a tool. Nothing more, and nothing less, and as long as there are guns in the hands of criminals, it is a crime itself to disarm potential victims.

So if we totally banned guns (Except for perhaps the military) would you be fine with no one having guns?

This would involve a constitutional amendment and every reasonable and necessary step to enforce such a ban.

Just as soon as doing so magically makes 300 million guns cease to exist.

[Bafuria]

The guns are not the problem. Criminals are.

Guns are most certainly the problem.

What other weapon enables criminals to attack and kill from long range with little to no training, and is violent enough to immediately neutralize people they attack other than guns?

Guns enable criminals to kill people with greater efficiency and less physical effort, but they do not "distance" the perpetrator from the victim, physically or psychologically.

Over 80% of deadly gunfights between criminals and policemen take place at less than two meters.

[Big Jim P]

Indeed, and all gun-control does is ensure that the wrong hands are the only ones with the gun.

Well, I was originally joking with the fantasy world thing, but I see this conversation will produce no real results according to this statement. Have fun with the circle jerk.

Tell me: how gun-control will disarm criminals?

[Dimar]

Why do people feel the need to bring up every shooting? Why is this news?

What the hell? Would you be happy if your mum, dad, brother or sister was killed, and nobody cared? Jesus Christ....

[Gauthier]

ATF; Anyone else see one that does not belong in this set?

Since subtlety did not work, it is time to be blunt: What does tobacco and alcohol have to do with firearms? I have always wondered that.

Wow. That is the most pendantic non-argument I've heard. That's like someone bringing up the Secret Service in a thread about counterfeiting (p.s. the Secret Service also deals with the issue of counterfeiting) and you going "What does protecting the President have to do with counterfeiting?"

[Gauthier]

Yes, because the one federal agency that's supposed to regulate firearms does not belong in a discussion about a mass shooting and gun control.

Yes, because said federal agency was being used by the DOJ and possibly the Obama Administration to allow illegal straw buyers get away with firearms going to Cartels. Who exactly got the blame?

And no, the Bush Administration's variant ended before Obama took office, Fast and Furious started in October of 2009...

Oh yes, because it's popular misconception that the ATF deliberately allowed the guns to get to cartel hands when reality says they tried to confiscate said guns but were cockblocked by a combination of Arizona's bend-over lax gun laws and prosecutor meddling.

The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal

[Spreewerke]

Why do people feel the need to bring up every shooting? Why is this news?

What the hell? Would you be happy if your mum, dad, brother or sister was killed, and nobody cared? Jesus Christ....

I don't recall anyone in my town giving me their condolences after I was pallbearer for my grandfather's funeral. Didn't really bother me too much: he kept to himself, and not really anyone outside of those attending the funeral knew him. Didn't bother me that his death wasn't known globally.

Also, to Jim: The BATFE pretty much has everything to do with Prohibition.

[Caninope]

That's not quite what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is that "mass shooting" is an emotionally charged term, bringing memories of Gabby Giffords, Aurora, and Sandy Hook where crazed gunmen shot into a crowd of strangers. This wasn't the case here- it was a troubled kid killing his family. Not quite the same thing.

So three people being shot is more emotional then 5?

Anyway we have already determined what is a mass shooting and this was one

There were 6 deaths and 14 further injuries at the Tuscon shooting.

[Caninope]

OK, a question for all you "Wolverines" out there. Why do you actually need the likes of a Kalashnikov? Why do you need a gun that shoots that many bullets, that quickly, with that much power? Do the deer in your area drive APCs? Are you at the vanguard of the zombie apocalypse? Have they started rounding people in your area up for transport to one of those FEMA prison camps Glen Beck threw a fit about a while back? Do you need to hold off the Legion of Doom while Superman is out of town?

Except that (a) the Kalashnikov series generally fires much less dangerous bullets than the standard hunting rifle and (b) most civilian model rifles are semiautomatics (the only exception being a select few rifles manufactured before 1986).

[Mavorpen]

OK, a question for all you "Wolverines" out there. Why do you actually need the likes of a Kalashnikov? Why do you need a gun that shoots that many bullets, that quickly, with that much power? Do the deer in your area drive APCs? Are you at the vanguard of the zombie apocalypse? Have they started rounding people in your area up for transport to one of those FEMA prison camps Glen Beck threw a fit about a while back? Do you need to hold off the Legion of Doom while Superman is out of town?

Except that (a) the Kalashnikov series generally fires much less dangerous bullets than the standard hunting rifle and (b) most civilian model rifles are semiautomatics (the only exception being a select few rifles manufactured before 1986).

Did anyone else laugh really hard at "Wolverines"?

[Caninope]

The guns are not the problem. Criminals are.

Guns are most certainly the problem.

What other weapon enables criminals to attack and kill from long range with little to no training, and is violent enough to immediately neutralize people they attack other than guns?

Attack and kill from long range with little to no training? I'm actually a little offended that you think using a gun doesn't require training.

It takes quite a bit of practice and training to properly handle a gun, and to shoot a gun (especially from long range). If you don't believe me, try shooting a 12 gauge shotgun for the first time in your life and then tell me how the bruise feels.

[Caninope]

Still, crossbows.

Or stones. Assault stones.

You can absolutely survive being shot with a crossbow and still be capable of fleeing or fighting back. A gun, depending on caliber of course, will not leave you so intact.

You're also being obtuse. You should stop that.

A great number of handgun and intermediate caliber bullets leave one able to flee and/or fight (to an extent). It's the high caliber hunting rounds (which no one has been targeting) that pose the most serious threats.

[Caninope]

ATF; Anyone else see one that does not belong in this set?

Since subtlety did not work, it is time to be blunt: What does tobacco and alcohol have to do with firearms? I have always wondered that.

ATF used to be the portion of the IRS. It originally handled alcohol during Prohibition and then alcohol taxes afterwards. Soon, tobacco was added to its mandate. Then came guns in 1968 and regulations of guns. Eventually, everyone decided the IRS had too much power and the ATF was spun off into the DOJ's purview.

[Free South Califas]

ATF; Anyone else see one that does not belong in this set?

Since subtlety did not work, it is time to be blunt: What does tobacco and alcohol have to do with firearms? I have always wondered that.

Me too. I guess the only similarity is that they are dangerous chemicals, since ATF is actually ATFE now (includes Explosives). Should really be the Bureau of Dangerous Chemical Management, I suppose.

Did someone say guns are evil in this thread?

Guns might not be evil, but evil people having guns is the problem, so which part in that equation do you feel like taking out? Because I, for one, don't think you could ever decipher perfectly who the people are that will use it to kill others, and those who will use it to defend themselves.

Actually, prohibiting gun licenses or certain kinds of gun licenses for just a few specific mental health issues might do the trick: sociopathy, psychopathy, malignant narcissism and (on a temporary basis) suicidal tendencies. That being said, for this to be effective at all, it would require universal mental health care or comprehensive mental health screenings tied to gun licensing--and for the latter, I worry that some antisocial types will train themselves to pass as normal for the time it takes to pass such a screening.

Well yes, I agree. Never said that they should be in the wrong hands.

Indeed, and all gun-control does is ensure that the wrong hands are the only ones with the gun.

Except, no, most gun control advocates want you to be able to have a gun, too. Just not necessarily the gun you want, unless you already own it before the legislation is passed. Again, being disingenuous won't help anyone.

[Octogots]

why not ban assault weapons
Speaking of which,if guns are for self defense why not make 3 round pistols ? That way mass shooters will hardly kill more than 3-6 victims before being beat down. And it works in self defense too : if you are attacked you have 3 shots to take down 3 attackers which is more than intimidating

Four attackers and you're fucked.

but would they dare attack knowing they have about a 50%-75% percent chance of being shot/killed (assuming they thought you'd miss a shot somehow )

[Spreewerke]

Four attackers and you're fucked.

but would they dare attack knowing they have about a 50%-75% percent chance of being shot/killed (assuming they thought you'd miss a shot somehow )

Remember that thread where that lady in George shot a man five times point-blank with a .38-caliber revolver?

Remember how he didn't die?

[Nicer potlimitomaha]

5 people is a mass shooting?

Anywhere outside the USA? Quite.

Israel isn't exactly the safest place in the world.

[Esternial]

but would they dare attack knowing they have about a 50%-75% percent chance of being shot/killed (assuming they thought you'd miss a shot somehow )

Remember that thread where that lady in George shot a man five times point-blank with a .38-caliber revolver?

Remember how he didn't die?

Since when is it a priority to KILL the one attacking you?

[New England and The Maritimes]

Remember that thread where that lady in George shot a man five times point-blank with a .38-caliber revolver?

Remember how he didn't die?

Since when is it a priority to KILL the one attacking you?

If I were to shoot someone, it would be as a last resort and until they aren't a threat. I don't particularly care if they're alive or dead until I'm no longer in danger, at which point I would start to work on first aid if it were applicable and have paramedics on the way.

[Esternial]

Since when is it a priority to KILL the one attacking you?

If I were to shoot someone, it would be as a last resort and until they aren't a threat. I don't particularly care if they're alive or dead until I'm no longer in danger, at which point I would start to work on first aid if it were applicable and have paramedics on the way.

I'd shoot them, centre of mass, and call the cops and paramedics.

If I were a better shot, maybe opt for the legs instead. I really don't want other people's blood on my hand, regardless of how much of a bastards they are.

[Caninope]

If I were to shoot someone, it would be as a last resort and until they aren't a threat. I don't particularly care if they're alive or dead until I'm no longer in danger, at which point I would start to work on first aid if it were applicable and have paramedics on the way.

I'd shoot them, centre of mass, and call the cops and paramedics.

If I were a better shot, maybe opt for the legs instead. I really don't want other people's blood on my hand, regardless of how much of a bastards they are.

Except that you don't shoot for the legs. They'd still have a high likelihood of dying given the major blood vessels that run through the legs.

[Genivaria]

You can absolutely survive being shot with a crossbow and still be capable of fleeing or fighting back. A gun, depending on caliber of course, will not leave you so intact.

You're also being obtuse. You should stop that.

A great number of handgun and intermediate caliber bullets leave one able to flee and/or fight (to an extent). It's the high caliber hunting rounds (which no one has been targeting) that pose the most serious threats.

I am. I think that all hunting clubs should keep the guns on site and make you pay and sign a legal document to borrow it for a time.
This way the club has all the information on who has what gun and where to find them if needed.

[Caninope]

A great number of handgun and intermediate caliber bullets leave one able to flee and/or fight (to an extent). It's the high caliber hunting rounds (which no one has been targeting) that pose the most serious threats.

I am. I think that all hunting clubs should keep the guns on site and make you pay and sign a legal document to borrow it for a time.
This way the club has all the information on who has what gun and where to find them if needed.

So now I'm forced to join a hunting club?

No.

[Spreewerke]

I am. I think that all hunting clubs should keep the guns on site and make you pay and sign a legal document to borrow it for a time.
This way the club has all the information on who has what gun and where to find them if needed.

So now I'm forced to join a hunting club?

No.

Seriously: that would be telling me my 139 acres of timber is now off-limits for hunting.