should abortion be legal?

[Dyakovo]

Yes. No one owns the rights to a woman's body. Just like no one owns the rights to a man's body. End of discussion. Good night!

... Does that mean I have a say?

Sure... Right up until the point at which your body is no longer involved in the process.

[Guardland]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity" which are unique and unrepeatable.



Obviously, abortion shouldn't be legal.

[Dyakovo]

<snip>

Unless you live in the Vatican, the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church doesn't matter.

[Condunum]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church

2270 Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you.
My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth.

2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.
God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae," "by the very commission of the offense," and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law. The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

2273 The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation:

"The inalienable rights of the person must be recognized and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in the person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death."
"The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined. . . . As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights."

2274 Since it must be treated from conception as a person, the embryo must be defended in its integrity, cared for, and healed, as far as possible, like any other human being.

Prenatal diagnosis is morally licit, "if it respects the life and integrity of the embryo and the human fetus and is directed toward its safe guarding or healing as an individual. . . . It is gravely opposed to the moral law when this is done with the thought of possibly inducing an abortion, depending upon the results: a diagnosis must not be the equivalent of a death sentence."

2275 "One must hold as licit procedures carried out on the human embryo which respect the life and integrity of the embryo and do not involve disproportionate risks for it, but are directed toward its healing the improvement of its condition of health, or its individual survival."

"It is immoral to produce human embryos intended for exploitation as disposable biological material."

"Certain attempts to influence chromosomic or genetic inheritance are not therapeutic but are aimed at producing human beings selected according to sex or other predetermined qualities. Such manipulations are contrary to the personal dignity of the human being and his integrity and identity" which are unique and unrepeatable.



Obviously, abortion shouldn't be legal.

On what grounds? The Catholic Church has no legal bearings on a modern secular democracy. P

[Sophian]

Because I think forcing another living thing to cease having a heartbeat is immoral.

Are you vegetarian?

Anyway, let's keep on the thread. The thread is about abortion being legal or illegal, not about being moral or immoral. Morality =/= law.

Of course. The meat industry is outlawed in The Sophian Federation. We replaced meat with tasty meat tasting substitutes made from soy, similar to Morning Star Chik'n.

[Freiheit Reich]

Yes, it reduces crime, is a form of population control, and keeps an unwanted child from being born and living a miserable life.

Biologically it is murder though so I understand why people are against it. The good outweighs the bad though.

[Tubbsalot]

Biologically it is murder though

It's killing, yeah. Murder doesn't just mean "killing."

[Guardland]

Unless you live in the Vatican, the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church doesn't matter.

Nonsence. The doctrines of the Catholic Church apply to every person all around the world.

On what grounds? The Catholic Church has no legal bearings on a modern secular democracy. P

Equally nonsence. The Catholic Church has more legal bearings on modern secular democracy than any other person or organization, because it's authority comes from the highest source, God.

[Condunum]

Yes, it reduces crime, is a form of population control, and keeps an unwanted child from being born and living a miserable life.

Biologically it is murder though so I understand why people are against it. The good outweighs the bad though.

There is no biological definition of murder.

[Condunum]

Unless you live in the Vatican, the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church doesn't matter.

Nonsence. The doctrines of the Catholic Church apply to every person all around the world.

On what grounds? The Catholic Church has no legal bearings on a modern secular democracy. P

Equally nonsence. The Catholic Church has more legal bearings on modern secular democracy than any other person or organization, because it's authority comes from the highest source, God.

Maybe you don't know what secular means. Religion does not govern a secular nation. Your god has no place in my government.

[Tubbsalot]

The Catholic Church has more legal bearings on modern secular democracy than any other person or organization, because it's authority comes from the highest source, God.

I'm not sure you understand how laws work.

[Novairia]

I think it should be legal, BUT regulated. Just like drugs, just like alcohol, just like guns, legal but regulated is my stance.

A simple draft..

1. Abortion will be legal up to the point of 2.5 weeks before estimated due date. With exceptions and amendments to:
a) If the fetus becomes toxic and a threat to the mothers life, then the abortion is legal at that moment, no matter the time of pregnancy.
b) If the father (excluding rapists, divorced, etc, or ones deemed unfatherly by the court) objects to the abortion, the abortion procedure will not be carried out until a concensus is formed between the couple to proceed.
c) Family units (be it related by blood or organization) of the Mother/Father, have no say in the fetus's fate or abortion procedure. Tampering with would result in heavy monetary fines. The sole holders of the fetus decision is the Mother/Father unit.



That or have the dam kid, raise it till it is weened, then put it in the orphanarium so it can be adopted by people that want kids but can't have their own for multiple reasons.

So the father owns the woman's body, not the woman herself. It's great to know you seek centuries of regression in regards to gender equality

The fetus is not part of the womans body, it is an endosymbiont, a type of parasite that feeds off of the host until it can survive on its own / or until the host expels it.
A parasite that could not form without both the inputs of the male and female, just because the parasite resides within her womb does not mean she owns it. Parking a jointly bought car at your uncles garage does not make it his.
And for it to be "centuries" of regression (of which there is none with what I have said above you Femnazi, above is what we call equality), modern womans rights would have had to start a lot farther back.

[Ostroeuropa]

Unless you live in the Vatican, the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church doesn't matter.

Nonsence. The doctrines of the Catholic Church apply to every person all around the world.

On what grounds? The Catholic Church has no legal bearings on a modern secular democracy. P

Equally nonsence. The Catholic Church has more legal bearings on modern secular democracy than any other person or organization, because it's authority comes from the highest source, God.

Got any proof?

[Guardland]

Maybe you don't know what secular means. Religion does not govern a secular nation. Your god has no place in my government.

Religion does not govern any nation. It's political role is to lay down the moral law to which the nation must abide to. Therefore, God does have a place in your government.

[Ostroeuropa]

Maybe you don't know what secular means. Religion does not govern a secular nation. Your god has no place in my government.

Religion does not govern any nation. It's political role is to lay down the moral law to which the nation must abide to. Therefore, God does have a place in your government.

You got any proof or not.

[Condunum]

The Catholic Church has more legal bearings on modern secular democracy than any other person or organization, because it's authority comes from the highest source, God.

I'm not sure you understand how laws work.

Ah ah, secular law. Splitting hairs, though.

[Freiheit Reich]

Yes, it reduces crime, is a form of population control, and keeps an unwanted child from being born and living a miserable life.

Biologically it is murder though so I understand why people are against it. The good outweighs the bad though.

There is no biological definition of murder.

OK, it is killing. I will say it is also murder because it is pre-planned by the woman. Killing something on purpose even with just one cell is murder. The college biology teacher said this is why he views abortion as wrong. We all start as a single cell.

Abortion is sad, I wish we made it easier for people to get steralized. Encouraging this with propoganda campaigns would be a good step in the right direction. Uneducated and poor people should be encouraged to get steralized.

[Condunum]

Maybe you don't know what secular means. Religion does not govern a secular nation. Your god has no place in my government.

Religion does not govern any nation. It's political role is to lay down the moral law to which the nation must abide to. Therefore, God does have a place in your government.

"Religion does not govern any nation. It just governs any nation."

Kay.

[Dyakovo]

Are you vegetarian?

Anyway, let's keep on the thread. The thread is about abortion being legal or illegal, not about being moral or immoral. Morality =/= law.

Of course. The meat industry is outlawed in The Sophian Federation. We replaced meat with tasty meat tasting substitutes made from soy, similar to Morning Star Chik'n.

No such place.

---

Yes, it reduces crime, is a form of population control, and keeps an unwanted child from being born and living a miserable life.

Biologically it is murder though so I understand why people are against it. The good outweighs the bad though.

Murder is not a biological concept.

---

Unless you live in the Vatican, the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church doesn't matter.

Nonsence. The doctrines of the Catholic Church apply to every person all around the world.

No, they don't. The Pope can choke on s cardinal's cock for all I care.

[Ostroeuropa]

There is no biological definition of murder.

OK, it is killing. I will say it is also murder because it is pre-planned by the woman. Killing something on purpose even with just one cell is murder. The college biology teacher said this is why he views abortion as wrong. We all start as a single cell.

Abortion is sad, I wish we made it easier for people to get steralized. Encouraging this with propoganda campaigns would be a good step in the right direction. Uneducated and poor people should be encouraged to get steralized.

Notsureifserious.

[Guardland]

Got any proof?

I'm sure you'll find the Church's teachings on its role within society in the Catechism.

[Condunum]

There is no biological definition of murder.

OK, it is killing. I will say it is also murder because it is pre-planned by the woman. Killing something on purpose even with just one cell is murder. The college biology teacher said this is why he views abortion as wrong. We all start as a single cell.

Abortion is sad, I wish we made it easier for people to get steralized. Encouraging this with propoganda campaigns would be a good step in the right direction. Uneducated and poor people should be encouraged to get steralized.

Abortion is a moral neutral, as far as I'm concerned.

But no, you cannot call it murder. It must be defined as such to be called murder.

[Ostroeuropa]

Got any proof?

I'm sure you'll find the Church's teachings on its role within society in the Catechism.

So thats a no then.
I hereby claim that Individuality-ness is the second coming.
They say abortion is fine. Since it comes from god, obviously our laws need to be based on his opinion.
Do you see the problem yet?
Either come up with an actual argument or you may as well just be making farm animal noises. Your religion has no place here.

[Freiheit Reich]

OK, it is killing. I will say it is also murder because it is pre-planned by the woman. Killing something on purpose even with just one cell is murder. The college biology teacher said this is why he views abortion as wrong. We all start as a single cell.

Abortion is sad, I wish we made it easier for people to get steralized. Encouraging this with propoganda campaigns would be a good step in the right direction. Uneducated and poor people should be encouraged to get steralized.

Abortion is a moral neutral, as far as I'm concerned.

But no, you cannot call it murder. It must be defined as such to be called murder.

Legalized murder. If I step on a cockroach on purpose I murdered the cockroach.

[Ostroeuropa]

Abortion is a moral neutral, as far as I'm concerned.

But no, you cannot call it murder. It must be defined as such to be called murder.

Legalized murder. If I step on a cockroach on purpose I murdered the cockroach.

There is no such thing as legalized murder.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder
Unlawful is a part of the definition.