should abortion be legal?

[Zweite Alaje]

I'm a quasi-fascist socialist, so yes.

oh man it would sure b great to live in your ideal society

worshiping the state all day in return for constant monitoring and hurr moral guardians

wonderful place to live

There is a reason I don't identify as fascist proper anymore, the state worshipping sickens me. I forgive your ignorance of my political preference, since I don't believe you and I have encounter each other much. It'd be accurate to refer to me as a socialist with fascist influences hence why I refer to myself as "quasi-fascist".

[Zottistan]

Is highschooler.
Is devoutly pro-choice and abortion-on-demand.
Your generalisations irk me.

Are you against male masturbation, so? Sperm are potential foetuses, foetuses are potential babies, sperm are potential babies.

A fetus is a baby in development; not comparable to sperm.

A foetus in it's own right can't become a person, just like a sperm in it's own right can't become a foetus. Two stages of the same process.

Even still, why would the rights of a work-in-progress baby outweigh those of a fully developed human being?

[Individuality-ness]

No, it's not a baby. It's not a human being either; it's a human fetus.

Where do we draw the line? What does it make a human with an IQ of 20 or a human with severe disabilities?

When the being is self-aware. Babies are self aware, as well as people with under-average IQs.

And of course, we do have the legal definition of personhood, which is where the official line is drawn.

Any particular atheist? There's quite a few of us.

No. As you said, there are, unfortunately, quite a few of you. The anti-religious human ethic atheism are, unfortunately, the fastest growing religion in the world. But you are all the same to me. You all speak with a single voice, a voice that mocks anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Well, you're constantly using the term "Atheist" when you're responding to me in lieu of my name, which I've asked you to call me by at least twice. What makes me be the spokesperson for everyone else?

[Neo Art]

It's...oh jesus it's a lot more complicated than that. The easiest answer I can give is, law isn't a light switch, it's not "now it's legal, now it's not, now it's legal, now it's not". The answer to your question depends not on "if Roe v. Wade (and by extention, Planned Parenthood v. Casey) gets overturned" but "in your hypothetical, HOW is it overturned?"

Are you asking if there's arguments to be made that would overturn Roe and Casey, while leaving more or less undisturbed the broader concept of the implied right to privacy in the due process clause of the 14th amendment? Yes, there is, but that's not an easy question to give a staisfactory answer to.

Ah, that was what I was wondering. I guess I would need to study law before I really understood how it works.

To a certain extent, yeah. I mean, please remember, that asking me "how does the constitution work" is a lot like going to a cardiologist and asking "so, how does the heart work?" I mean, sure, you can probably get a half way decent simplistic model, but you may not quite realize that you're asking a far more complex question, and sometimes I'm left struggling with how the hell do I actually explain this without first going "ok, first thing, go read about it for a few years, so that we're on the same page"

And that's not being flippant, that's not being rude, that's just me saying "we lack the common vocabulary for me to fully answer your question, and it takes years to develop that vocabulary, so it's not that I'm better, or smarter, or that you can't "get it" it's that the answer to the question your asking isn't in a language you speak"

And I can bring it down to layman's terms as best I can, but at a certain point, there's just some concepts that don't translate all together well.

[Alowwvia]

You're confusing law with ethics. It is the purpose of ethics to impart a moral code (which is why doctors have a Code of (Medical) Ethics) and the job of law is to set the governing rules that set the minimum functional level for society.

Common mistake, but still a mistake.



Any particular atheist? There's quite a few of us.

No. As you said, there are, unfortunately, quite a few of you. The anti-religious human ethic atheism are, unfortunately, the fastest growing religion in the world. But you are all the same to me. You all speak with a single voice, a voice that mocks anyone who doesn't agree with you.

Rational people tend to disregard irrational beliefs quickly, yes.

[CVT Temp]

you can confidentially ignore my arguement as much as you like, it doesn't make Atheism a religion.

He has to stereotype atheists, because dealing with the individual arguments of individual atheists is too hard. Much easier to just make out like all atheists agree on everything and then debate a strawman.

[United Marxist Nations]

There should really be an "other" option on the poll, as many people don't view it as black & white.

[Neutraligon]

Ah, that was what I was wondering. I guess I would need to study law before I really understood how it works.

To a certain extent, yeah. I mean, please remember, that asking me "how does the constitution work" is a lot like going to a cardiologist and asking "so, how does the heart work?" I mean, sure, you can probably get a half way decent simplistic model, but you may not quite realize that you're asking a far more complex question, and sometimes I'm left struggling with how the hell do I actually explain this without first going "ok, first thing, go read about it for a few years, so that we're on the same page"

And that's not being flippant, that's not being rude, that's just me saying "we lack the common vocabulary for me to fully answer your question, and it takes years to develop that vocabulary, so it's not that I'm better, or smarter, or that you can't "get it" it's that the answer to the question your asking isn't in a language you speak"

And I can bring it down to layman's terms as best I can, but at a certain point, there's just some concepts that don't translate all together well.

I get that, sorta like me trying to explain complex engineering to someone who only knows basic math. Thanks anyway. I don't take offense at all. Part of going into special fields is that you learn the vocab of that field. The reason that vocab exists is because it precisely matches the needs of that field. When moving to laymen's terms, the vocab doesn't really contain the same meaning, so info is lost.

[Nua Corda]

you can confidentially ignore my arguement as much as you like, it doesn't make Atheism a religion.

He has to stereotype atheists, because dealing with the individual arguments of individual atheists is too hard. Much easier to just make out like all atheists agree on everything and then debate a strawman.

Like all the mall ninjas who think shooting at stationary paper targets at shooting ranges with their LCPs makes them able to defend themselves against mass shooters, I imagine this fellow will eventually come to the painful realization that he is full of it...

[Neutraligon]

He has to stereotype atheists, because dealing with the individual arguments of individual atheists is too hard. Much easier to just make out like all atheists agree on everything and then debate a strawman.

Like all the mall ninjas who think shooting at stationary paper targets at shooting ranges with their LCPs makes them able to defend themselves against mass shooters, I imagine this fellow will eventually come to the painful realization that he is full of it...

Can we please stop this. This has already been posted in moderation, there is no need to continue.

[United Marxist Nations]

You're confusing law with ethics. It is the purpose of ethics to impart a moral code (which is why doctors have a Code of (Medical) Ethics) and the job of law is to set the governing rules that set the minimum functional level for society.

Common mistake, but still a mistake.



Any particular atheist? There's quite a few of us.

No. As you said, there are, unfortunately, quite a few of you. The anti-religious human ethic atheism are, unfortunately, the fastest growing religion in the world. But you are all the same to me. You all speak with a single voice, a voice that mocks anyone who doesn't agree with you.

A) Atheism isn't a religion.
B) Many atheists have very different political views, for instance, I am a Marxist-Leninist; many other atheists on this site aren't Marxist-Leninist.
C) Viewing an entire group as a single entity is a sign of prejudice, Hitler did the same with the Jews.

[CVT Temp]

I get that, sorta like me trying to explain complex engineering to someone who only knows basic math.

how is intagruhl formed? how function get riemun sumd?

[Nua Corda]

No. As you said, there are, unfortunately, quite a few of you. The anti-religious human ethic atheism are, unfortunately, the fastest growing religion in the world. But you are all the same to me. You all speak with a single voice, a voice that mocks anyone who doesn't agree with you.

A) Atheism isn't a religion.
B) Many atheists have very different political views, for instance, I am a Marxist-Leninist; many other atheists on this site aren't Marxist-Leninist.
C) Viewing an entire group as a single entity is a sign of prejudice, Hitler did the same with the Jews.

Tisk Tisk Tisk, Godwin's law in action...

[The Merchant Republics]

With that said, I do consider it morally reprhensible that my tax dollars to towards the provision of this service (in Canada) and I do support the idea that we as a society should create a community where abortion isn't necessary; where women aren't raped, contraception and knowledge of it's use is universal, and the responsibility of the decision behind whom and when we choose have sex is much greater. I think this is much easier to accomplish, and much more in keeping with the mores of my fellow Christians and Pro-lifers than tossing young women in prison for exercising the right to control their bodies, and blowing up clinics for helping them do it safely.

Not to mention, being pro-choice doesn't mean being pro-abortion. I am definitely pro-choice, but a society where people wouldn't have to get an abortion is one I think all pro-choice people who love. Be it guaranteed birth-control, medical systems to allow fetal transplants, or just a more just, fair society were people didn't feel like they were in a position to have to get an abortion, any would be great.

Pro-life people constantly seem to think pro-choice = pro-abortion, even though it couldn't be further from the truth.

Absolutely, that's a major factor of why this debate continues on.

Now, I don't call myself pro-choice because ultimately, if I found myself in that situation I would always choose life, there are almost no situations where I think abortion is the most appropriate thing, I don't approve of the choice, but I find myself unwilling to think of penalizing a woman who did choose it.

I think recognizing that as a people we could do much more to end the need for abortion if we stopped arguing about whether it should be legal, would be much better than letting this debate go on ad-infinitum. Right now there are homes being broken over this, lives being ruined and pregnancies terminated that might not have been had we invested our resources less on squabbling over the legality of it, and more on dealing with causes and the underlying moral virtue of the decision.

[Illte]

You understand she has a name, right?

He thinks calling her what she freely admits to being is an insult...
*nods*

No, it is just that I find the adoption of the word 'Atheist' by those who preach intolerant antitheism, quite insulting. Towards a real atheist I would be honored to call them atheists.

[Nua Corda]

I get that, sorta like me trying to explain complex engineering to someone who only knows basic math.

how is intagruhl formed? how function get riemun sumd?

How does the bolt carrier's rearward motion interact with the stamped receiver to produce flex and thus reduce MOA consistency in Kalashnikov-based actions?

[Alowwvia]

He thinks calling her what she freely admits to being is an insult...
*nods*

No, it is just that I find the adoption of the word 'Atheist' by those who preach intolerant antitheism, quite insulting. Towards a real atheist I would be honored to call them atheists.

Anti-theism is simply a natural response y more short-tempered people like me.

Many atheists are conditioned with patience towards religions, some aren't.

[Zottistan]

He thinks calling her what she freely admits to being is an insult...
*nods*

No, it is just that I find the adoption of the word 'Atheist' by those who preach intolerant antitheism, quite insulting. Towards a real atheist I would be honored to call them atheists.

I find it hard to imagine an antitheist who isn't an atheist.

And it's neither kind nor wise to insult other posters.

[Ostroeuropa]

Nevermind.
Anyway, abortion guys?

[San Leggera]

He thinks calling her what she freely admits to being is an insult...
*nods*

No, it is just that I find the adoption of the word 'Atheist' by those who preach intolerant antitheism, quite insulting. Towards a real atheist I would be honored to call them atheists.

Atheist = lack of belief in a deity
anti-theist = opposition to theism

What's the problem here other than your inability to stomach there being people who don't believe in a deity and are opposed to the existence of one?

[Individuality-ness]

He thinks calling her what she freely admits to being is an insult...
*nods*

No, it is just that I find the adoption of the word 'Atheist' by those who preach intolerant antitheism, quite insulting. Towards a real atheist I would be honored to call them atheists.

I'm not an anti-theist, far from it. So I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm an anti-theist, since I personally think religion is a good thing but that one shouldn't impose their morals on others.

[Abatael]

It absolutely should be. People need imperium over their body to do whatsoever they want to it.

[Neutraligon]

ENOUGH!!! This isn't a thread about atheism. Want a thread about Atheism go make one. This is supposed to be about abortion.

[The Emerald Dawn]

It absolutely should be. People need imperium over their body to do whatsoever they want to it.

*record-scratching sound*

[Individuality-ness]

Nevermind.
Anyway, abortion guys?

Abortion should be legal. *nod*