The Jewish Question

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Apologies for the delay, the evening's programming you see.

I guess what I'm saying is that the Allies immediately not declaring war/forcing legal changes on Germany when the Nuremburg Laws came out in 35 does not translate into "ignoring the Holocaust".

It is, however, blindness to a bad situation.

Maybe. It's still not guilt. I mean, is it America's fault for Syria being a civil-war wracked state because we didn't force them to be more democratic?

I think they likely saw that as the worst that could happen, yes.

It makes sense, I suppose. However, the standard was to just kick them out of the country, not, you know, restrict movement and declare them non-German.

Which I would think they regarded as the only "next step" the Germans could take from that latter point. It's technically worse to be kicked out them be oppressed, by the standards of the time, I would assume.
No rational person wanted to think about the Germans (such an orderly, sensible, and down-to-earth people!) actually exterminating the Jews. It genuinely didn't even occur to a lot of people as a possibility until it was already happening.

German militarism was a HUGE part of WW1. The prime cause, even.

Nah. WWI was about decades of stupid European politics and trouble in the Balkans. Austria declares war on Serbia, Russia on Austria, Germany on Russia and then a German invasion of France via Belgium, giving Britain a nice excuse to enter. Turkey joined in due to, admittedly, German suggestions.

I've read several books on the subject (including Churchill's bio of the time), so I've actually seen some of the Kaiser's orders from the time. If you look at what the Kaiser was writing, the notes and orders he sent, and the communiques that he was sending to his diplomats and generals, he was DELIGHTED when Ferdinand died, because he knew that now he could force a fight between Germany and Slavdom. He manipulated and forced Austria to take hugely aggressive actions (that they weren't even planning on their own) regarding Serbia that they KNEW would result in Russia getting involved. Indeed, that was the point - to force the fight with Russia. And they accepted that taking France out was necessary in such a case, as Russia and France were official allies. To say nothing of the Ottomans.

People like to blame it on colonial disputes/military arms races/just incomprehensible political stuff, but the fact of the matter was, those were hugely greater problems in 1908 than in 1914. 1914 was the catalyst because the Germans forced it to be.

The Kaiser desperately wanted a war with Russia, because it would win them space, glory, whatever, and they knew they could win. This is on the record, clearly, you can look it up if you like. He accepted that this would entail war with France. They did not anticipate Britain or America coming in.

My understanding (based on Empire, by Niall Ferguson) is that Germany invaded France to avoid a two front war. The idea was to knock them out early on to focus on the war with Russia. That happened in WWII, in WWI I think it was one commander going slightly too far left or something that stuffed it up.

In WW1, it was EXACTLY the same line of logic. The long war will come in Russia, so France must be brought to heel quickly and forcefully. What wouldn't they expect? An attack through Belgium!
Hence the entire German WW1 strategy to take on France, invading an innocent country and tripping every "WE'RE BEING INDIRECTLY THREATENED!" alarm in the UK.
In WW2, it was much more a case of "We can leave the fight with Russia until we need it, so we can focus everything on France for a while".

So they were essentially OK with starting a war that would involve 4/5ths the actual players that ended up coming in. The world was much calmer and more peaceful in 1914 before Ferdinand died than it was in 1908 or 1911. No one really saw a war coming after all the minor crises they'd weathered, except the Kaiser, who was itching for a scrap.

I'm not saying that it does. It does mean that the other powers of the day cannot look at the Holocaust and say, "Well, none of this had anything to do with us."

I agree that Versailles laid the groundwork for WW2, but I really don't think so for the Holocaust. I mean, let's be honest: the slaughter of millions of your own people is not a foreseeable consequence of economic and military/ restrictions

Ehhh...
It's still all down to the Nazis, though. There were a million ways 20s Germany could've turned out that didn't involved mass murder.

There were a multitude of ways that that ball could have gone without a vase being broken. John's at fault, but George is the silly bugger who chose a location close enough to a vase that could get broken.

Except George had no rational reason to expect as a result of his choice that John would turn violently anti-vase as a result of the location, leading to the deliberate extermination of the vase.
The Holocaust was not a foreseeable event on the scale of accidentally shattering a vase.

I'm British. And my country was in no way responsible for the Holocaust. If you want non-Nazi people to blame then look no further than the peoples who lived in the occupied countries. Many of them either actively or passively collaborated with the Nazis. They are to blame far more than the allies who were trying to destroy Nazi Germany.

I'm not saying the likes of Britain are responsible. I am saying their hands aren't clean.

Do not pretend that WWII was about stopping the Holocaust, because it wasn't.

Never forget the original (European) cause: German rights to Danzig.
It kinda grew from there. It may not have been about it, but it was known that Hitler's Germany was evil in a way that the Kaiser's Germany really wasn't. Exactly how evil was revealed in 45.

[Forsher]

Apologies for the delay, the evening's programming you see.



It is, however, blindness to a bad situation.

Maybe. It's still not guilt. I mean, is it America's fault for Syria being a civil-war wracked state because we didn't force them to be more democratic?

Frankly, that'd have made it worse. Sometimes, things are meant to happen on their own. Take the Vietnam War.

It makes sense, I suppose. However, the standard was to just kick them out of the country, not, you know, restrict movement and declare them non-German.

Which I would think they regarded as the only "next step" the Germans could take from that latter point. It's technically worse to be kicked out them be oppressed, by the standards of the time, I would assume.
No rational person wanted to think about the Germans (such an orderly, sensible, and down-to-earth people!) actually exterminating the Jews. It genuinely didn't even occur to a lot of people as a possibility until it was already happening.

Which is naiive.

I really hate you.
Fine, I'll go away.
Sweet.
No-one wants me.
Bastards.

If you want to remove a problem and you cannot put that problem somewhere else, what do you have left (assuming that getting over the problem isn't an option) if not tackling it head on? (Note, the Nazis thought there was a problem... there wasn't actually a problem, er, beyond the persecution of Jews but that's not what the Nazis thought was the problem.)

Nah. WWI was about decades of stupid European politics and trouble in the Balkans. Austria declares war on Serbia, Russia on Austria, Germany on Russia and then a German invasion of France via Belgium, giving Britain a nice excuse to enter. Turkey joined in due to, admittedly, German suggestions.

I've read several books on the subject (including Churchill's bio of the time), so I've actually seen some of the Kaiser's orders from the time. If you look at what the Kaiser was writing, the notes and orders he sent, and the communiques that he was sending to his diplomats and generals, he was DELIGHTED when Ferdinand died, because he knew that now he could force a fight between Germany and Slavdom. He manipulated and forced Austria to take hugely aggressive actions (that they weren't even planning on their own) regarding Serbia that they KNEW would result in Russia getting involved. Indeed, that was the point - to force the fight with Russia. And they accepted that taking France out was necessary in such a case, as Russia and France were official allies. To say nothing of the Ottomans.

People like to blame it on colonial disputes/military arms races/just incomprehensible political stuff, but the fact of the matter was, those were hugely greater problems in 1908 than in 1914. 1914 was the catalyst because the Germans forced it to be.

My understanding (based on Empire, by Niall Ferguson) is that Germany invaded France to avoid a two front war. The idea was to knock them out early on to focus on the war with Russia. That happened in WWII, in WWI I think it was one commander going slightly too far left or something that stuffed it up.

In WW1, it was EXACTLY the same line of logic. The long war will come in Russia, so France must be brought to heel quickly and forcefully. What wouldn't they expect? An attack through Belgium!
Hence the entire German WW1 strategy to take on France, invading an innocent country and tripping every "WE'RE BEING INDIRECTLY THREATENED!" alarm in the UK.
In WW2, it was much more a case of "We can leave the fight with Russia until we need it, so we can focus everything on France for a while".

This is a tangent that is distracting us, new thread?

It's an interesting topic that requires more thought and would really move away from this thread's real focus.

I agree that Versailles laid the groundwork for WW2, but I really don't think so for the Holocaust. I mean, let's be honest: the slaughter of millions of your own people is not a foreseeable consequence of economic and military/ restrictions



There were a multitude of ways that that ball could have gone without a vase being broken. John's at fault, but George is the silly bugger who chose a location close enough to a vase that could get broken.

Except George had no rational reason to expect as a result of his choice that John would turn violently anti-vase as a result of the location, leading to the deliberate extermination of the vase.
The Holocaust was not a foreseeable event on the scale of accidentally shattering a vase.

The point is that George allowed the situation where the vase could be broken (on purpose, to make a better analogy) to happen. John is certainly responsible... George cannot just walk away and say, "I had nothing to do with this."

I'm British. And my country was in no way responsible for the Holocaust. If you want non-Nazi people to blame then look no further than the peoples who lived in the occupied countries. Many of them either actively or passively collaborated with the Nazis. They are to blame far more than the allies who were trying to destroy Nazi Germany.

I'm not saying the likes of Britain are responsible. I am saying their hands aren't clean.

Never forget the original (European) cause: German rights to Danzig.
It kinda grew from there. It may not have been about it, but it was known that Hitler's Germany was evil in a way that the Kaiser's Germany really wasn't. Exactly how evil was revealed in 45.

It wasn't very widely known... even in Germany.

[Falcania]

I'm going to say that the blame for the holocaust lies on the National Socialist administration in Germany, who decided to carry out that systematic murder.

That's more or less all there is to say, really.