The Jewish Question

[Forsher]

Basically, to what extent can we allocate guilt for the Holocaust on those who were not Nazis or actual Nazi collaborators?

I say, we can give a reasonable lump of guilt to the likes of Britain and the US. Certainly, things got a lot worse but the Nuremburg Laws weren't exactly a secret. The unwillingness to to grant Jews asylum also speaks volumes. The result of the Evian Conference more.

Then there's the wider view of things. The way WWI ended is undeniably a contributing factor behind the existence of the Third Reich and that was down to the victors. The weakness of the League of Nations and appeasement all come into it as well. The Nazis thought that the other powers wouldn't like what they were doing, they subdued anti-Semitism for the 1936 Olympics. So, at least, we cannot say that didn't care.

This is not to say that the Nazis weren't responsible for the Holocaust. It is to say that the other powers of the day aren't blameless.

[The Cookish States]

Basically, to what extent can we allocate guilt for the Holocaust on those who were not Nazis or actual Nazi collaborators?

I say, we can give a reasonable lump of guilt to the likes of Britain and the US. Certainly, things got a lot worse but the Nuremburg Laws weren't exactly a secret. The unwillingness to to grant Jews asylum also speaks volumes. The result of the Evian Conference more.

Then there's the wider view of things. The way WWI ended is undeniably a contributing factor behind the existence of the Third Reich and that was down to the victors. The weakness of the League of Nations and appeasement all come into it as well. The Nazis thought that the other powers wouldn't like what they were doing, they subdued anti-Semitism for the 1936 Olympics. So, at least, we cannot say that didn't care.

This is not to say that the Nazis weren't responsible for the Holocaust. It is to say that the other powers of the day aren't blameless.

You ask the Jewish Question as though any of us could give a final solution.

[First Valerian Empire]

You and your brothers are home alone.

One of your brothers after getting a very bad and unjustified spanking earlier in the week is angry with the family and starts breaking stuff in the house. You and your other brother sit there and let him break stuff until he goes near your stuff and then you tell him no and when he continues you start fighting him and you eventually subdue him. Your father comes home and sees the wreckage and blames just your brother because he actually did the crime but your mother blames everyone.

The point is that everyone played a part in what happened and everyone carries some guilt. Besides no one really likes the Jews, they aren't the most economically friendly people to have in your community. They are like that one snobbish family member that comes around once a year but no one wants them to stay with them because they aren't the best house guests.

[Kulaloe]

I agree with the OP. Canada's official response from Prime Minister King to assylum seekers was "We are currently not accepting any Jews at the moment." Just think he was from the Liberal Party!

[Agymnum]

You and your brothers are home alone.

One of your brothers after getting a very bad and unjustified spanking earlier in the week is angry with the family and starts breaking stuff in the house. You and your other brother sit there and let him break stuff until he goes near your stuff and then you tell him no and when he continues you start fighting him and you eventually subdue him. Your father comes home and sees the wreckage and blames just your brother because he actually did the crime but your mother blames everyone.

The point is that everyone played a part in what happened and everyone carries some guilt. Besides no one really likes the Jews, they aren't the most economically friendly people to have in your community. They are like that one snobbish family member that comes around once a year but no one wants them to stay with them because they aren't the best house guests.

You could argue that about any group of people.

Jewish people are greedy, Asian people are stingy, white people are ignorant, Mexicans are really loud, etc.

Everyone has their negative quirks. That doesn't make them somehow acceptable targets.

[Solmakia]

the holocaust was everyone's fault. You can't just blame ONE nation or group
Admit it, everyone played a hand in it. Willingly or not.

[Schwabenreich]

I agree with the OP. Canada's official response from Prime Minister King to assylum seekers was "We are currently not accepting any Jews at the moment." Just think he was from the Liberal Party!

That makes sense, if we don't automatically assume liberal to mean social liberal.

the holocaust was everyone's fault. You can't just blame ONE nation or group
Admit it, everyone played a hand in it. Willingly or not.

Everyone is a very inclusive word. I hardly think the Sentinelese people had much of a role in the holocaust. Nor those little polynesian islands scattered around the pacific.

[Forsher]

Basically, to what extent can we allocate guilt for the Holocaust on those who were not Nazis or actual Nazi collaborators?

I say, we can give a reasonable lump of guilt to the likes of Britain and the US. Certainly, things got a lot worse but the Nuremburg Laws weren't exactly a secret. The unwillingness to to grant Jews asylum also speaks volumes. The result of the Evian Conference more.

Then there's the wider view of things. The way WWI ended is undeniably a contributing factor behind the existence of the Third Reich and that was down to the victors. The weakness of the League of Nations and appeasement all come into it as well. The Nazis thought that the other powers wouldn't like what they were doing, they subdued anti-Semitism for the 1936 Olympics. So, at least, we cannot say that didn't care.

This is not to say that the Nazis weren't responsible for the Holocaust. It is to say that the other powers of the day aren't blameless.

You ask the Jewish Question as though any of us could give a final solution.

Poor taste that, I even have doubts about the title itself but I think it is good at getting views... just not so much posts.

[Agymnum]

You ask the Jewish Question as though any of us could give a final solution.

I guess it really is true what they say. Nothing is above comedy and parody.

Nothing.

[Schwabenreich]

You ask the Jewish Question as though any of us could give a final solution.

Poor taste that, I even have doubts about the title itself but I think it is good at getting views... just not so much posts.

I certainly expected a very different thread to this by the title, so it trawled me in.

[First Valerian Empire]

You ask the Jewish Question as though any of us could give a final solution.

I guess it really is true what they say. Nothing is above comedy and parody.

Nothing.

It was in poor taste but you have to admit it was kind of clever.

[Forsher]

Poor taste that, I even have doubts about the title itself but I think it is good at getting views... just not so much posts.

I certainly expected a very different thread to this by the title, so it trawled me in.

What did you expect? it'd be interesting to know.

[The Ben Boys]

Everyone who signed onto the Versailles Treaty deserves what happened in the second world war and the Iron Curtain, with the exception of the Jews and the US, who was moderating and trying to pass Wilson's big 14.

Blame rests in those that saw the act go through. As far as I know, Jews weren't the only ones, and I don't believe the Allied governments knew the extent or to what capacity the Hollocaust was. And didn't a crapload of Jews immigrate to the US and Switzerland? And it's not like there wasn't warning or possibility of escape, though it did come to quite a shocker that the Nazis weren't taking them to someplace safe. As usual, correct me if I'm wrong on the facts: I'm no expert.

[Souseiseki]

the holocaust was everyone's fault. You can't just blame ONE nation or group
Admit it, everyone played a hand in it. Willingly or not.

even rural china

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Basically, to what extent can we allocate guilt for the Holocaust on those who were not Nazis or actual Nazi collaborators?

I say, we can give a reasonable lump of guilt to the likes of Britain and the US.Certainly, things got a lot worse but the Nuremburg Laws weren't exactly a secret.

The Nuremburg laws weren't the Holocaust.

The unwillingness to to grant Jews asylum also speaks volumes. The result of the Evian Conference more.

This is a bit more difficult to explain. Honestly, I think that the Americans and Brits of the time could literally just not fathom the depths to which Hitler would sink. They got that Jews were being discriminated against, but they never expected the end result of what would happen - there was no real parallel to it even in the depravity of WW1. They made the mistake of thinking the Nazis were sane, and many millions paid for it. It was a mistake, not a decision, to leave the Jews to die.

Then there's the wider view of things. The way WWI ended is undeniably a contributing factor behind the existence of the Third Reich and that was down to the victors.

No, that was still down to the Germans, even if the Allies screwed with them in the terms. Just because the Allies treated them unfairly harshly (to the German point-of-view anyway) doesn't excuse Nazi Germany rising from the ashes.
They could NOT have been murderous psychos, you know.

The weakness of the League of Nations and appeasement all come into it as well.

Indeed.

The Nazis thought that the other powers wouldn't like what they were doing, they subdued anti-Semitism for the 1936 Olympics. So, at least, we cannot say that didn't care.

It's true, that. I still would have loved to see Hitler's face when he heard Jesse Owens won.

This is not to say that the Nazis weren't responsible for the Holocaust.
It is to say that the other powers of the day aren't blameless.

I suggest you modify how exactly you're saying what you're saying. Let me put to you my view of the matter:
The Nazis and their lapdog scumfuck collaborators were entirely "to blame" for the Holocaust. They made the camps, they put the Jews (and all those other groups) in, and they murdered them, of their own free will.
The rest of the world made an extraordinarily tragic mistake in that they didn't read the signs of what was coming properly and act quickly enough to prevent it. They were too idealistic and optimistic, and in the end, it was too late.
It seems the only thing that truly drove it home was finding the camps and seeing for ourselves. Nobody wanted to assume that was going on without proof in their faces.

[The Holy Roman Reich]

I agree with your sentiments. I think the Holocaust happened because it was allowed to happen. The Third Reich really made no real attempt to keep it a secret. I believe it was allowed to happen because the United States, as a whole, wanted nothing to do with the problems of Europe and Britain and the Soviet Union stood idly by because there was no economical gain for them. This does not excuse the Third Reich for what they did, but there is an old Roman saying: "Opportunity makes the thief." Personally, I think "The Holocaust" was just another holocaust, and not even the worst of them. Take American and the Indians for example, or the Japanese and south-eastern Asia. Hell, Russia and its own people. Stalin probably had more the six or seven times the amount of people killed than did Hitler. These things come and go; as long as there is a human race, there will always be evil and good people. Nothing will change that.

[Agymnum]

Everyone who signed onto the Versailles Treaty deserves what happened in the second world war and the Iron Curtain, with the exception of the Jews and the US, who was moderating and trying to pass Wilson's big 14.

Blame rests in those that saw the act go through. As far as I know, Jews weren't the only ones, and I don't believe the Allied governments knew the extent or to what capacity the Hollocaust was. And didn't a crapload of Jews immigrate to the US and Switzerland? And it's not like there wasn't warning or possibility of escape, though it did come to quite a shocker that the Nazis weren't taking them to someplace safe. As usual, correct me if I'm wrong on the facts: I'm no expert.

It's a damn shame Wilson's Big 14 generally got pushed to the wayside. I guess shoving a debt up Germany's ass was more important than... I dunno... Rebuilding, maybe?

[First Valerian Empire]

The Nazis originally just wanted to deport the Jews from Germany as a ''First Solution''. The ''Final Solution'' was only brought into play after most of the nations of the world stopped accepting such large numbers of Jews Britain even blocked the jews trying to return to Israel or the British mandate as it was called as the Arabs in the region weren't found of the Jewish population growing by 200% in like 2 years.

[Schwabenreich]

I certainly expected a very different thread to this by the title, so it trawled me in.

What did you expect? it'd be interesting to know.

I was kind of thinking it was gonna be a thread about how the jewish question should have been handled if at all. I mean, I think Germany should have just acknowledged jews are a fine people and fine citizens and what not, but it'd be nice to have seen people discuss the alternatives such as their poorly thought out and quickly abandoned plan to send them to Madagascar.

I also suspected it might have been about the post war jews, and how they should have been treated, such as whether they should have been invited into British Palestine, and whether Britain should have pulled out when ethnic violence occured.

Instead I got the unexpected but perfectly legitimate topic questioning how responsible non-nazis were in treating jews and the role of others in the holocaust. Nothing wrong with that, just not what I expected.

[China Mission in Slavia and Her Realms]

Jewish question? I don't think that a question regarding peoples should exist.
The Jews should have all inalienable rights as do all mankind.

[Forsher]

Everyone who signed onto the Versailles Treaty deserves what happened in the second world war and the Iron Curtain, with the exception of the Jews and the US, who was moderating and trying to pass Wilson's big 14.

Blame rests in those that saw the act go through. As far as I know, Jews weren't the only ones, and I don't believe the Allied governments knew the extent or to what capacity the Hollocaust was. And didn't a craplaod of Jews immigrate to the US and Switzerland? And it's not like there wasn't warning or possibility of escape, though it did form to quite a shocker that the Nazis weren't taking them to someplace safe. As usual, correct me if I'm wrong not hear facts: I'm no expert.

This may surprise you but both the Treaty of Versailles and the League of Nations needed the US. Famous cartoon to prove my point. For the most part the Treaty was going the US's way... until certain US elements undermined Woodrow Wilson entirely and squeeze them until their pips or something was the way to go. Wikipedia says this guy said it.

[Luketopia]

I expected this thread to be about a raving nazi who is pissing his views on to Nationstates.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

I agree with your sentiments. I think the Holocaust happened because it was allowed to happen.

Oh, this'll be good.

The Third Reich really made no real attempt to keep it a secret.

They lied repeatedly and consistently to their own people about what the camps were for, and the only people who were in a position to know were generally sympathetic to the idea in the first place.

I believe it was allowed to happen because the United States, as a whole, wanted nothing to do with the problems of Europe and Britain and the Soviet Union stood idly by because there was no economical gain for them.

The Holocaust didn't even actually start in full until 1942, when all the countries you named were already fighting, regardless of isolationism and economics.. There was discrimination (getting worse all the time), but the Nazis only decided on extermination as the strategy at Wannsee in '42.
So there goes that point.

This does not excuse the Third Reich for what they did, but there is an old Roman saying: "Opportunity makes the thief." Personally, I think "The Holocaust" was just another holocaust, and not even the worst of them.
Take American and the Indians for example, or the Japanese and south-eastern Asia. Hell, Russia and its own people. Stalin probably had more the six or seven times the amount of people killed than did Hitler.

Not really relevant, and I'd love to see sources for those Stalin statistics. Six fucking times? Seven? That's 60-70 MILLION people.

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Also, this should REALLY be retitled.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

--NVM--

I would divide the guilt between the Nazi Party in Germany (it would be terrible of me to blame the entire country) and its supporters, and the countries that stood idly on the side and didn't intervene sooner.