Ban on "assault weapons" and/or high capacity magazines?

[The Emerald Dawn]

There are times in my life where I really wish I had my legs back. I would be an unholy plague upon the people in the south of America who keep spouting this nonsense. Every time a senator spouted off about "THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN" he'd wake up with the heads of his family leering down on him from the bedposts.

I'm almost positive these idiots don't understand how much this irritates me.

If they had any sense they'd be kowtowing before the Lincoln Memorial. You know, to thank their lucky stars that he didn't sign an executive order to have everyone who was an active soldier in the Confederate Army and the Confederate Army tried before a federal court and face the death penalty...y'know, because technically what they did was treason and sedition for 4 years.

They have no clue how fucking lucky they are. In Russia, they'd never have been allowed to live. In Post-WWII Germany, they'd be districted into ghettos and starved for care or food. I can list country after country where they, their families, their neighbors, and their fucking pets would be rounded up and shot. But no, they just want to rant and rave like toddlers who were spanked about how Big Old Mean America is hurting their little feelings.

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

The USA cannot stay in Afghanistan forever, and once they leave Karzai will hang and the Taliban will be back in control. The only thing the USA will have to show for 14 years of war is tossing a few thousand American and Allied troops into the meat grinder to make the industrial-military complex (the one Eisenhower warned about) that much more filthy stinking rich while bankrupting the government (the people).

Same goes for Iraq. Who's calling the shots there now? Tehran.

Afghanistan and Iraq were both lost causes from the start. Unwinnable.

Because of a well armed population that did not want to be subjugated and told how to live.

Why can't the U.S. stay in Afghanistan forever?

Seriously, it's costing us $100 billion a year, which is slightly more than we spend on agriculture subsidies, space exploration, and foreign aid combined. We're not talking chump change, but we're not talking about an amount that's exactly breaking the bank, either.

We're not leaving because the Taliban is kicking our asses and forcing us to leave. We're leaving because we never intended to stay there forever to begin with. And if we really wanted to stay, we'd cut out forces in half, subsidize the regime we've established to act as our proxy, and just back them up as needed from time to time to stabilize the situation. The Soviets may have gotten their asses kicked in Afghanistan, but we're not the Soviets.

The point is that guerrilla warfare is less effective than it looks. Successful guerrilla armies invariably have to make a transition to conventional warfare in order to win, and the Taliban aren't doing that, and — given their level of (dis)organization — will probably never be able to do that. They're not the Viet Minh; Hell, they're not half as capable as the Viet Minh.

The moral of the story? You can't just say, "Guerrilla war FTW, kthxbai!!!" Guerrilla armies can be and have been beaten down through the pages of history. It's not a surefire path to victory, let alone an easy one.

Also people thinking it would be crushed here are silly an armed insurrection inside your own country is a lot harder to fight than an insurrection overseas.

That reminds me... I was thinking of visiting New Orleans for Mardi Gras. I know I'll need my U.S. Passport; can anyone tell me where the Confederate consulate is in Chicago so I can go there to get a visa to enter the C.S.A.?

I'm not saying the Taliban beat the American coalition in Afghanistan, and I'm also not saying the Mujahideen beat the Soviets. I'm saying they made it far too expensive and complicated in terms of personnel, equipment, time, money, and international confidence.

I don't know where you got that lowball figure of $100 b. a year. All the totals I have seen have been at least twice that, if not thrice.

For argument's sake, I'll go with that $100 b. How much is the deficit? how much is the debt? The USA cannot afford for the world to lose confidence in its ability to honour its debts. Period. Most of the rest of the world is starting to think of the USA as a lottery winner having had gone on a spending spree and is halfway bankrupt. The value of the USD is based on international perception and confidence. It has been ever since Nixon ordered the treasury to stop redeeming the USD in gold because more money was printed out to finance Vietenam and the Moon Race that the USA could guarantee in gold at $35 per ounce.

There are the other costs, too. The dead. No one will argue with that. The morale of an army and a nation. While that may sound touchy-feely, and army with low morale is simple not effective. The soldiers are being worn out with long tours, and multiple long tours at that. The equipment is being worn don into the dust from overuse as well. that will cost one heck of a lot of money to replace.

A nation with low morale will experience social rot and decay.

And this is all in addition to the thing about hiring local security and propping up Karzai. It’s already being done, too. It’s been done for most of the war.

Why do you thing China has been getting uppity? Because they know they can, now. They US military has been worn down and fatigued by two nasty wars in arid dusty environments, one of them having gone on for 12 years now. That’s a total of 20 years of war between the two.

Technically the USA has the equipment and manufacturing ability to replace it to stay in Afghanistan as long as it wants. But in terms of the many types of ancillary costs of doing so, it cannot.

And 12 years? No, it is unwinnable by both sides. 12 years and the US military at its finest could not rout them and secure the country. No outside force has ever succeeded in Afghanistan. Take a look at its history. It hasn't only been the Soviets and Americans who have tried.

All because the locals are well armed and do not want to be subjugated.

An assault weapons ban is a very bad idea.

[Northern Dominus]

If they had any sense they'd be kowtowing before the Lincoln Memorial. You know, to thank their lucky stars that he didn't sign an executive order to have everyone who was an active soldier in the Confederate Army and the Confederate Army tried before a federal court and face the death penalty...y'know, because technically what they did was treason and sedition for 4 years.

They have no clue how fucking lucky they are. In Russia, they'd never have been allowed to live. In Post-WWII Germany, they'd be districted into ghettos and starved for care or food. I can list country after country where they, their families, their neighbors, and their fucking pets would be rounded up and shot. But no, they just want to rant and rave like toddlers who were spanked about how Big Old Mean America is hurting their little feelings.

And then pretend that SOMEHOW the Civil War wasn't fought over the notion that maybe it's not okay to own human beings because their skin is a few shades darker than inbred european alabaster. Nope, that becomes "state's rights", which then gets boiled down to "individual rights don't take my gun or I'll shoot you" today.

When I was posted in Florida and had to listen to that kind of crap on a regular basis from the local I was sorely tempted to plaster this on the bumper of my 300ZX

Y'know, as a friendly reminder of what war actually entails and who will suffer if the South rises again thanks to a screwed up reading of particular amendments while ignoring others.

[The Emerald Dawn]

They have no clue how fucking lucky they are. In Russia, they'd never have been allowed to live. In Post-WWII Germany, they'd be districted into ghettos and starved for care or food. I can list country after country where they, their families, their neighbors, and their fucking pets would be rounded up and shot. But no, they just want to rant and rave like toddlers who were spanked about how Big Old Mean America is hurting their little feelings.

And then pretend that SOMEHOW the Civil War wasn't fought over the notion that maybe it's not okay to own human beings because their skin is a few shades darker than inbred european alabaster. Nope, that becomes "state's rights", which then gets boiled down to "individual rights don't take my gun or I'll shoot you" today.

When I was posted in Florida and had to listen to that kind of crap on a regular basis from the local I was sorely tempted to plaster this on the bumper of my 300ZX

Y'know, as a friendly reminder of what war actually entails and who will suffer if the South rises again thanks to a screwed up reading of particular amendments while ignoring others.

BECUZ FREEDUMMMMMMM MURIKA BALD EGLLLS DEY TUK UHR GURNNNNNNNNNNNNNZ.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

Somehow people forget that "rough" part.

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

We're getting off topic, guys. I never said what the Civil War was only about Lincoln's Constitutional abuses. It was about that , slavery, and economic disparity. No war is ever fought for one reason alone. That's like saying WWII was fought to stop the holocaust. It was but one of the reasons.

My only point mentioning the secession of the southern states is that it would make a modern government extremely reluctant to force its will on the People with military force. the last time DC tried that yes it won, but at the cost of nearly a million American lives. That was my only point. It is a lesson that will keep a well armed population free from a government seizing too much power. And power corrupts. It will maintain the Sovereignty of the Citizen.

Who would rather be a subject than a Citizen?

An assault weapons ban would be a bad idea.

[The Emerald Dawn]

We're getting off topic, guys. I never said what the Civil War was only about Lincoln's Constitutional abuses. It was about that , slavery, and economic disparity. No war is ever fought for one reason alone. That's like saying WWII was fought to stop the holocaust. It was but one of the reasons.

My only point mentioning the secession of the southern states is that it would make a modern government extremely reluctant to force its will on the People with military force. the last time DC tried that yes it won, but at the cost of nearly a million American lives. That was my only point. It is a lesson that will keep a well armed population free from a government seizing too much power. And power corrupts. It will maintain the Sovereignty of the Citizen.

Who would rather be a subject than a Citizen?

An assault weapons ban would be a bad idea.

There is no path by which what you just posted could be called logic.

I literally could eat a box of Alpha-Bits and shit a more coherent train of thought.

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

Fine examples Bafuria. I'm especially impressed with that last one.

Impressed?

That you dug that up. I consider myself to be somewhat well informed, but I had never heard of that one. I learn something new every day. Thanks.

[Northern Dominus]

And then pretend that SOMEHOW the Civil War wasn't fought over the notion that maybe it's not okay to own human beings because their skin is a few shades darker than inbred european alabaster. Nope, that becomes "state's rights", which then gets boiled down to "individual rights don't take my gun or I'll shoot you" today.

When I was posted in Florida and had to listen to that kind of crap on a regular basis from the local I was sorely tempted to plaster this on the bumper of my 300ZX

(Image)

Y'know, as a friendly reminder of what war actually entails and who will suffer if the South rises again thanks to a screwed up reading of particular amendments while ignoring others.

BECUZ FREEDUMMMMMMM MURIKA BALD EGLLLS DEY TUK UHR GURNNNNNNNNNNNNNZ.

Hmmm....nope, still not compelled to salute the Cult of the Gun's version of the American Flag. You know the one that uses squashed silver bullets for stars against a blued steel background, and blood-spatter streaks for the red stripes. Especially since they're still dripping...

We're getting off topic, guys. I never said what the Civil War was only about Lincoln's Constitutional abuses. It was about that , slavery, and economic disparity. No war is ever fought for one reason alone. That's like saying WWII was fought to stop the holocaust. It was but one of the reasons.

My only point mentioning the secession of the southern states is that it would make a modern government extremely reluctant to force its will on the People with military force. the last time DC tried that yes it won, but at the cost of nearly a million American lives. That was my only point. It is a lesson that will keep a well armed population free from a government seizing too much power. And power corrupts. It will maintain the Sovereignty of the Citizen.

Who would rather be a subject than a Citizen?

An assault weapons ban would be a bad idea.

Oh here we go with the Sovereign Citizen song and dance. Or as I like to call them the new wave of domestic terrorists.

Just so everyone knows, this is the same mentality that spawned multiple murders of law enforcement officers in recent years.
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/08/2 ... g-license/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/20/ark ... index.html

And lest we forget, Terry Nichols is a Soverign Citizen, you know the other guy involved in the Oklahoma City bombing. Real good posterboys of responsible firearms ownership this lot is.

This is why responsible firearms owners need to stand up and divorce themselves from this sort of dangerous rhetoric. It gets people killed time and again and damages the right to own firearms far worse than any ban.

[The Emerald Dawn]

BECUZ FREEDUMMMMMMM MURIKA BALD EGLLLS DEY TUK UHR GURNNNNNNNNNNNNNZ.

Hmmm....nope, still not compelled to salute the Cult of the Gun's version of the American Flag. You know the one that uses squashed silver bullets for stars against a blued steel background, and blood-spatter streaks for the red stripes. Especially since they're still dripping...

We're getting off topic, guys. I never said what the Civil War was only about Lincoln's Constitutional abuses. It was about that , slavery, and economic disparity. No war is ever fought for one reason alone. That's like saying WWII was fought to stop the holocaust. It was but one of the reasons.

My only point mentioning the secession of the southern states is that it would make a modern government extremely reluctant to force its will on the People with military force. the last time DC tried that yes it won, but at the cost of nearly a million American lives. That was my only point. It is a lesson that will keep a well armed population free from a government seizing too much power. And power corrupts. It will maintain the Sovereignty of the Citizen.

Who would rather be a subject than a Citizen?

An assault weapons ban would be a bad idea.

Oh here we go with the Sovereign Citizen song and dance. Or as I like to call them the new wave of domestic terrorists.

Just so everyone knows, this is the same mentality that spawned multiple murders of law enforcement officers in recent years.
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/08/2 ... g-license/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/20/ark ... index.html

And lest we forget, Terry Nichols is a Soverign Citizen, you know the other guy involved in the Oklahoma City bombing. Real good posterboys of responsible firearms ownership this lot is.

This is why responsible firearms owners need to stand up and divorce themselves from this sort of dangerous rhetoric. It gets people killed time and again and damages the right to own firearms far worse than any ban.

I'm almost entirely sure what Omnicidal Maniacs was attempting to do was "We're both right, but I'm more right, because FREEDOM".

[Paddy O Fernature]

Whoa! no one is suggesting insurrection. Just a deterrent against any government getting the bright idea of suspending the Constitution and the Sovereignty of the Citizen.

The whole point of 280 million firearms in the hands of the Sovereign citizen is so no one will want to get that idea. As long as it is understood that the REX 84 protocol is impossible to implement then it won't be. Take away that deterrent and it the Camps for anyone the government doesn't like.

Lincoln used the Constitution as toilet paper, and over a million died in the ensuing war, and that was fought with muzzle and breechloaders (requiring a separate primer cap so It was like loading the gun twice). The government and the military remember that.

There are times in my life where I really wish I had my legs back. I would be an unholy plague upon the people in the south of America who keep spouting this nonsense. Every time a senator spouted off about "THE SOUTH WILL RISE AGAIN" he'd wake up with the heads of his family leering down on him from the bedposts.

I'm almost positive these idiots don't understand how much this irritates me.

So you and the south have something in common then lad. Both of you shall never rise again!

Oh common, you opened yourself up for it. lol

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

I literally could eat a box of Alpha-Bits and shit a more coherent train of thought.

That's a good one. I haven't laughed that hard in days. I’ll have to remember it.

Thank you.

but my logic is simple enough to me: No modern government would be willing to wage war on armed citizens when said citizens have over 280 million guns and the combined fed, state, and local gov'ts have 8 million. They would be unwilling to use the kind of force it would take to subjugate free citizens so well armed. It would take artillery, airstrikes, and millions of dead.

Is your government supposed to own you or are you supposed to own it? I was under the impression that the entirety of all US law, and the very fabric of its existence is based on three words: "We the People."

Citizens are the People, not the government.

Therefore rying to reduce the number of guns in sovereign private hands is not wise in my opinion.

[Northern Dominus]

Hmmm....nope, still not compelled to salute the Cult of the Gun's version of the American Flag. You know the one that uses squashed silver bullets for stars against a blued steel background, and blood-spatter streaks for the red stripes. Especially since they're still dripping...

Oh here we go with the Sovereign Citizen song and dance. Or as I like to call them the new wave of domestic terrorists.

Just so everyone knows, this is the same mentality that spawned multiple murders of law enforcement officers in recent years.
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/08/2 ... g-license/
http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/05/20/ark ... index.html

And lest we forget, Terry Nichols is a Soverign Citizen, you know the other guy involved in the Oklahoma City bombing. Real good posterboys of responsible firearms ownership this lot is.

This is why responsible firearms owners need to stand up and divorce themselves from this sort of dangerous rhetoric. It gets people killed time and again and damages the right to own firearms far worse than any ban.

I'm almost entirely sure what Omnicidal Maniacs was attempting to do was "We're both right, but I'm more right, because FREEDOM".

Nope, that had all of the halmarks of Sovereign Citizien style logic there.

There wasn't any of the really insane stuff but the baseline is still there; that somehow individualist rights trump all, even the need to live peacably together and not be in mortal fear of your neighbor, and any attempt to say otherwise immediately paints you as "the other" and an enemy and the recipient of hostile intentions.

To get a grasp of just how lethal this mentality is, Jerry Kane and his son murdered a pair of police officers in West Memphis, Arkansas because they were pulled over during a traffic stop pursuant to drug interdiction. No provocation beyond being stopped and risk pursuant to Terry V. Ohio, but their rights of "passage" were somehow at risk so both officers had to die because of that trespass.

[North Calaveras]

I'm almost entirely sure what Omnicidal Maniacs was attempting to do was "We're both right, but I'm more right, because FREEDOM".

Nope, that had all of the halmarks of Sovereign Citizien style logic there.

There wasn't any of the really insane stuff but the baseline is still there; that somehow individualist rights trump all, even the need to live peacably together and not be in mortal fear of your neighbor, and any attempt to say otherwise immediately paints you as "the other" and an enemy and the recipient of hostile intentions.

To get a grasp of just how lethal this mentality is, Jerry Kane and his son murdered a pair of police officers in West Memphis, Arkansas because they were pulled over during a traffic stop pursuant to drug interdiction. No provocation beyond being stopped and risk pursuant to Terry V. Ohio, but their rights of "passage" were somehow at risk so both officers had to die because of that trespass.

are you saying gun-owners created this "us vs them" image?

[Northern Dominus]

Nope, that had all of the halmarks of Sovereign Citizien style logic there.

There wasn't any of the really insane stuff but the baseline is still there; that somehow individualist rights trump all, even the need to live peacably together and not be in mortal fear of your neighbor, and any attempt to say otherwise immediately paints you as "the other" and an enemy and the recipient of hostile intentions.

To get a grasp of just how lethal this mentality is, Jerry Kane and his son murdered a pair of police officers in West Memphis, Arkansas because they were pulled over during a traffic stop pursuant to drug interdiction. No provocation beyond being stopped and risk pursuant to Terry V. Ohio, but their rights of "passage" were somehow at risk so both officers had to die because of that trespass.

are you saying gun-owners created this "us vs them" image?

Firearms owners in general? No, not at all.

A small and very loud and rabid group of firearms fetishists that value the firearm as a religious symbol above others and subesequently get ridiculous amounts of money from companies like Beretta USA to spew their vitriol into the public lexicon? Yes.

Sovereign citizens are most definetly in the latter category to a degree, but they're another more dangerous animal enitely. To put it very simply they're Ayn Rand's wet dream, they're people who believe they're beholden only to a vague version of "natural" law, and not any local, state, or federal statues. Time and again this belief has resulted in violence, most notably the Oklahoma City bombing.
More can be found on that Wiki of Wikis of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

[North Calaveras]

are you saying gun-owners created this "us vs them" image?

Firearms owners in general? No, not at all.

A small and very loud and rabid group of firearms fetishists that value the firearm as a religious symbol above others and subesequently get ridiculous amounts of money from companies like Beretta USA to spew their vitriol into the public lexicon? Yes.

Sovereign citizens are most definetly in the latter category to a degree, but they're another more dangerous animal enitely. To put it very simply they're Ayn Rand's wet dream, they're people who believe they're beholden only to a vague version of "natural" law, and not any local, state, or federal statues. Time and again this belief has resulted in violence, most notably the Oklahoma City bombing.
More can be found on that Wiki of Wikis of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

I love the labels you use " Fetishes"

just like the other ones that are used to make an us vs them situation like " Gun-totting redneck" " Right-Wing Extremists" "Gun-totting bible thumper" " Gun-Grabbers"

[Mavorpen]

Firearms owners in general? No, not at all.

A small and very loud and rabid group of firearms fetishists that value the firearm as a religious symbol above others and subesequently get ridiculous amounts of money from companies like Beretta USA to spew their vitriol into the public lexicon? Yes.

Sovereign citizens are most definetly in the latter category to a degree, but they're another more dangerous animal enitely. To put it very simply they're Ayn Rand's wet dream, they're people who believe they're beholden only to a vague version of "natural" law, and not any local, state, or federal statues. Time and again this belief has resulted in violence, most notably the Oklahoma City bombing.
More can be found on that Wiki of Wikis of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

I love the labels you use " Fetishes"

just like the other ones that are used to make an us vs them situation like " Gun-totting redneck" " Right-Wing Extremists" "Gun-totting bible thumper" " Gun-Grabbers"

Do you have a problem with separating reasonable gun owners with the extremists?

[North Calaveras]

I love the labels you use " Fetishes"

just like the other ones that are used to make an us vs them situation like " Gun-totting redneck" " Right-Wing Extremists" "Gun-totting bible thumper" " Gun-Grabbers"

Do you have a problem with separating reasonable gun owners with the extremists?

I do when there lumped in the same basket which is is happening.

[Grinning Dragon]

are you saying gun-owners created this "us vs them" image?

Firearms owners in general? No, not at all.

A small and very loud and rabid group of firearms fetishists that value the firearm as a religious symbol above others and subesequently get ridiculous amounts of money from companies like Beretta USA to spew their vitriol into the public lexicon? Yes.

Sovereign citizens are most definetly in the latter category to a degree, but they're another more dangerous animal enitely. To put it very simply they're Ayn Rand's wet dream, they're people who believe they're beholden only to a vague version of "natural" law, and not any local, state, or federal statues. Time and again this belief has resulted in violence, most notably the Oklahoma City bombing.
More can be found on that Wiki of Wikis of course:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement

You have a lot of hate/anger issues man, it is not healthy. Maybe you would be more at home in some dictatorial country? If some of the freedoms here in the United States bother you that much.

[Mavorpen]

Do you have a problem with separating reasonable gun owners with the extremists?

I do when there lumped in the same basket which is is happening.

No it isn't.

[North Calaveras]

I do when there lumped in the same basket which is is happening.

No it isn't.

Sure whatever you say Mavorpen

idk like to piont out how dictators love to ban guns yet no one admits that this is a tyrannical tactic.

actually nevermind they were doing it for the saftey of the children

[Mavorpen]

Sure whatever you say Mavorpen

Glad you agree I'm right.

idk like to piont out how dictators love to ban guns yet no one admits that this is a tyrannical tactic.

Who gives a shit?

actually nevermind they were doing it for the saftey of the children

No they weren't.

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

Again, I’m not talking about any (nonexistent) right to insurrection against the Constitution.

I'm talking about a deterrent to the government from burning it and turning the country into a fascist corporate police state.

Illegal arrests and mass roundups of dissidents who disagree with government policy would be next to impossible at present. I'm not talking about going to war. I’m talking about deterring one.

What would the Soviets had done had the USA shelved the idea of nukes after Japan surrendered? What would Stalin have done without that deterrent?

If the government believes it can get away with anything it wants, there will be bad times indeed. As long as the government knows it has to respect the Constitution and the People's rights as Citizens, they will (more or less) do so.

280 million guns in Citizen hands makes the government believe it has no choice but to (again, more or less) respect the Constitution and the People.

Remember, the Silverbacks who get into power are just as Human as Silverbacks anywhere else.

This is about checks and balances to government power.

Licensing requirements? Sure. Background checks? Yes. I’ll even go for basic mental health screening to the point that psychiatrists and therapists who know someone is unstable should be obliged to register that patient into a “do not ever sell these people guns” database that it would be illegal not to check. Killing gun illegal smugglers and/or traffickers who put guns in the hands of those who would harm the Citizen? Damned straight.

But the People should be the ones to maintain Power.

Trust me. I know what can happen to the government of a poorly armed “democracy.”

[Laerod]

No it isn't.

Sure whatever you say Mavorpen

idk like to piont out how dictators love to ban guns yet no one admits that this is a tyrannical tactic.

actually nevermind they were doing it for the saftey of the children :p

I'd like to point out that Hitler deregulated gun ownership.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Again, I’m not talking about any (nonexistent) right to insurrection against the Constitution.

I'm talking about a deterrent to the government from burning it and turning the country into a fascist corporate police state.

I'm not talking about...insurrection...
I'm talking about a deterrent to the government [through insurrection]...

[North Calaveras]

Sure whatever you say Mavorpen

idk like to piont out how dictators love to ban guns yet no one admits that this is a tyrannical tactic.

actually nevermind they were doing it for the saftey of the children

I'd like to point out that Hitler deregulated gun ownership.

assuming your right(which i don't) what about all the others then? like Stalin and Mao?