Ban on "assault weapons" and/or high capacity magazines?

[Machtergreifung]

Why not 'control' guns from the other end of the deal and just make punishments for gun-related crime worse?

That and possible mandatory sanity checks upon purchase...

Sanity checks would probably disqualify the vast majority of weapon buyers.

"So sir, why are you buying this sub-military grade weapon?"

"Well, the police have better guns than me, so I've got to be ready!" or "In my day to day life, I have the need of a weapon that can fire an absurd quanity of lead downrange in so many seconds."

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

"The police have better guns than me..."

Perfect reasoning. There is a certain document that starts off with "We the People," not "We the subjects."

[Machtergreifung]

"The police have better guns than me..."

Perfect reasoning. There is a certain document that starts off with "We the People," not "We the subjects."

It has it's flaws. That "right to life, liberty...ect" seems to get in the way of your "right to bear arms" an awful lot.

And by and large, the rest of the world is fairly free without their citizens owning absurd levels of weaponary...

[Maineiacs]

I haven't backread, and I'm not going to (my last post was on page 10), but something just occurred to me:

Who gets murdered?

Who does the murdering?

Usually (I'll say in the overwhelming majority of cases) the killer and the killed have a connection. A bad connection. It is incredibly rare (relative to the number of killings) that a random person is killed.

Bangers kill bangers. Don't want to be killed? Don't be a banger.

Abusive spouses kill spouses. Don't want to be killed by an abusive spouse? Leave. If you're too stupid to leave an abusive spouse and you get killed, call it Natural Selection.

Traffickers and smugglers kill other traffickers and smugglers. Don't want to be killed? Don't traffick or smuggle.

It's one hell of a cold perspective, but most gun murder "victims" are into stupid shit that can get them killed. I do not lament their loss. I really don't. If someone wants to get involved in something stupid and dangerous, or if someone is too stupid to get out of a dangerous situation, then good riddance.

It’s like seatbelt laws; if you’re too stupid to use one, good riddance to you.

Same with helmet laws.

I'm tired of stupid "Humans." The fewer the better.

An "assault weapons" ban is just plain stupid. Guns fire bullets. All guns fire bullets. Any kind of standard bullet can kill. I think I have already mentioned that Sandy Hook could have been done with a shitty revolver chambered for .22 LR ammunition and a few speedloaders in his pocket.

Don't make daddy drink milk for supper because baby can't eat steak.

Guns (or "assault weapons") don't cause the occasional mass shooting. Omnicidal maniacs do. Well, not this omnicidal maniac, anyway.

Oh my, aren't we edgy and dark? I'll bet everyone at your high school is impressed with your sinister image, what with the trench coat you probably wear everywhere you go and all. I'll bet you have a tatoo and peircings too, don't you? 'Cause you're just rebel like that. Get a blog, junior.

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

I haven't backread, and I'm not going to (my last post was on page 10), but something just occurred to me:

Who gets murdered?

Who does the murdering?

Usually (I'll say in the overwhelming majority of cases) the killer and the killed have a connection. A bad connection. It is incredibly rare (relative to the number of killings) that a random person is killed.

Bangers kill bangers. Don't want to be killed? Don't be a banger.

Abusive spouses kill spouses. Don't want to be killed by an abusive spouse? Leave. If you're too stupid to leave an abusive spouse and you get killed, call it Natural Selection.

Traffickers and smugglers kill other traffickers and smugglers. Don't want to be killed? Don't traffick or smuggle.

It's one hell of a cold perspective, but most gun murder "victims" are into stupid shit that can get them killed. I do not lament their loss. I really don't. If someone wants to get involved in something stupid and dangerous, or if someone is too stupid to get out of a dangerous situation, then good riddance.

It’s like seatbelt laws; if you’re too stupid to use one, good riddance to you.

Same with helmet laws.

I'm tired of stupid "Humans." The fewer the better.

An "assault weapons" ban is just plain stupid. Guns fire bullets. All guns fire bullets. Any kind of standard bullet can kill. I think I have already mentioned that Sandy Hook could have been done with a shitty revolver chambered for .22 LR ammunition and a few speedloaders in his pocket.

Don't make daddy drink milk for supper because baby can't eat steak.

Guns (or "assault weapons") don't cause the occasional mass shooting. Omnicidal maniacs do. Well, not this omnicidal maniac, anyway.

Oh my, aren't we edgy and dark? I'll bet everyone at your high school is impressed with your sinister image, what with the trench coat you probably wear everywhere you go and all. I'll bet you have a tatoo and peircings too, don't you? 'Cause you're just rebel like that. Get a blog, junior.

Try flaming somone else. You won't get a rise out of me.

And try to stay on topic.

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

"The police have better guns than me..."

Perfect reasoning. There is a certain document that starts off with "We the People," not "We the subjects."

It has it's flaws. That "right to life, liberty...ect" seems to get in the way of your "right to bear arms" an awful lot.

And by and large, the rest of the world is fairly free without their citizens owning absurd levels of weaponary...

Cross the border to your North and your freedom of speech disappears. A lot of rights do. OK, so we have socialised universal access health care, which is good (and why I stay - that's an issue more important to me than just about any other), but I live in a country where people can - and have - been jailed for publicly expressing their opinions. No threats or incitement to violence. Just opinions.

Furthermore, we do not have a government as such. The Lord King Harper can do whatever he likes. His word is law. He suspends Parliament when the opposition asks embarrassing questions. If his MPs don’t vote as he tells them to, they get kicked out. He does not allow for debate. He creates "omnibus" bills that incorporate hundreds of laws in order to deliberately obfuscate his intentions. The Senate is hand-picked by him. He has an overwhelming majority in parliament, but only had 39% of the vote. Cabinet meetings are secret. Most government workings are.

There are no checks and balances on power. Our system allows the government to ignore the Supreme Court, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the Constitution itself.

We are most certainly not the "True North Strong And Free." On paper it looks good, but in reality it's kind of Orwellian up here. It wouldn't be if we were better armed that the "authorities' who are supposed to serve us.

[Northern Dominus]

Correction: gang shootings and intimate partner homicides don't make up the majority of recorded murders. That leaves a lot of room for unsolved homicides or attempted homicides with no leads.

Oh and gangs never have assault rifles, obviously. Photographic evidence to the contrary.

http://www.samfaulkner.co.uk/gallery/la ... 06_006.jpg

So, unreported homicides plus gang members with military-pattern weapons potentially equals what people?

I don't think anyone argues with the fact that some gangs possess semi-automatic, military-style rifles.
But the fact remains that rifles overall are responsible for a tiny portion of homicides.

Also, do you have any reason to believe that unresolved murders are predominantly IPH's and gang murders?

One problem with the semi-auto argument: Because of their minimalist nature, Kalishnikov-type weapons are relatively easy to convert to fully automatic. Not as easy as say a TEC-9, but a damn sight easier than something more complex like an AR-15. Given the widespread proliferation of this weapon and the kinetic punching power of the large round that it uses, in the hands of unbalanced and dangerous people the results are deadly, as evidenced in 2011 IHOP massacre in Carson City, Nevada.
http://www.policeone.com/active-shooter ... y-altered/

As far as the unresolved murders question, I've looked and there's no statistical data for unsolved murders...obviously because they're unsolved, but in general if a shooter or shooters either remain mobile and/or police their brass, use firearms bought via straw purchases at gun shows then transferred to illegal weapons dealers, and use other techniques to evade detection, chances are they've thought things out and used the system to not get caught.

I'm not saying all firearms crime (ALL firearms, not just military-pattern firearms) can be prevented by looking at our firearms laws and tightening them up accordingly to reflect the advance of time and technological advancements, but reducing the rate significantly by putting safeguards in place and punishing unscrupulous immoral bastards at gun shows who sell indiscriminately (not all of them do, but enough so that it's a major problem) and end up assisting murder and mayhem is a helluva lot better than throwing ones hands up in the air and going "oh well" for a variety of thin and careless excuses

[Spreewerke]

I don't think anyone argues with the fact that some gangs possess semi-automatic, military-style rifles.
But the fact remains that rifles overall are responsible for a tiny portion of homicides.

Also, do you have any reason to believe that unresolved murders are predominantly IPH's and gang murders?

One problem with the semi-auto argument: Because of their minimalist nature, Kalishnikov-type weapons are relatively easy to convert to fully automatic.

No, they are not. How many times must I say that in this thread (or was it one of the other two threads)?

[Frisivisia]

It has it's flaws. That "right to life, liberty...ect" seems to get in the way of your "right to bear arms" an awful lot.

And by and large, the rest of the world is fairly free without their citizens owning absurd levels of weaponary...

Cross the border to your North and your freedom of speech disappears. A lot of rights do. OK, so we have socialised universal access health care, which is good (and why I stay - that's an issue more important to me than just about any other), but I live in a country where people can - and have - been jailed for publicly expressing their opinions. No threats or incitement to violence. Just opinions.

Furthermore, we do not have a government as such. The Lord King Harper can do whatever he likes. His word is law. He suspends Parliament when the opposition asks embarrassing questions. If his MPs don’t vote as he tells them to, they get kicked out. He does not allow for debate. He creates "omnibus" bills that incorporate hundreds of laws in order to deliberately obfuscate his intentions. The Senate is hand-picked by him. He has an overwhelming majority in parliament, but only had 39% of the vote. Cabinet meetings are secret. Most government workings are.

There are no checks and balances on power. Our system allows the government to ignore the Supreme Court, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, and the Constitution itself.

We are most certainly not the "True North Strong And Free." On paper it looks good, but in reality it's kind of Orwellian up here. It wouldn't be if we were better armed that the "authorities' who are supposed to serve us.

Canada, now apparently in Orwell-flavored.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Don't you have to own the heavily-controlled fully-automatic components to make a conversion?

[Grinning Dragon]

One problem with the semi-auto argument: Because of their minimalist nature, Kalishnikov-type weapons are relatively easy to convert to fully automatic.

No, they are not. How many times must I say that in this thread (or was it one of the other two threads)?

Spree-
It is too late, there is so much misinformation brought about by the media and movies/TV shows, that most people will believe anything. And now the nonfactual is considered factual in this regard.

[Northern Dominus]

One problem with the semi-auto argument: Because of their minimalist nature, Kalishnikov-type weapons are relatively easy to convert to fully automatic.

No, they are not. How many times must I say that in this thread (or was it one of the other two threads)?

Right, because there aren't instructional videos or directions on the internet regarding how to convert a semi-automatic AK type rifle into a fully automatic one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMIIC_MIxMA

Anywhere at all

http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/threa ... +full+auto

Especially with pictures that make it easy for any yahoo with a drill press to perform

http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/unclero ... ummies.pdf

[Grinning Dragon]

No, they are not. How many times must I say that in this thread (or was it one of the other two threads)?

Right, because there aren't instructional videos or directions on the internet regarding how to convert a semi-automatic AK type rifle into a fully automatic one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMIIC_MIxMA

Anywhere at all

http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/threa ... +full+auto

Especially with pictures that make it easy for any yahoo with a drill press to perform

http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/unclero ... ummies.pdf

All I see are a bunch of unsafe and risky conversions with no idea on how well the weapon will be reliable and whether or not the weapon will cycle or not safely. Then we get into the issue that the semi auto American version of AKs, the receivers are not made for full auto fire, and can lead to some disastrous results. This would be a don't try this at home kids.

[Northern Dominus]

Right, because there aren't instructional videos or directions on the internet regarding how to convert a semi-automatic AK type rifle into a fully automatic one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMIIC_MIxMA

Anywhere at all

http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/threa ... +full+auto

Especially with pictures that make it easy for any yahoo with a drill press to perform

http://www.angelfire.com/anime5/unclero ... ummies.pdf

All I see are a bunch of unsafe and risky conversions with no idea on how well the weapon will be reliable and whether or not the weapon will cycle or not safely. Then we get into the issue that the semi auto American version of AKs, the receivers are not made for full auto fire, and can lead to some disastrous results. This would be a don't try this at home kids.

Uh huh, and do you think safety really matters to either the gangbanger looking for extra fire and a way to get through those pesky walls and doors? Or the paranoid delusional firearms fetishist who thinks that filling out paperwork to make sure he's not a criminal and therefore fit to own a firearm is tantamount to the most awful egrigious violation of a pseudo totalitarian (and ficticious) government cabal?

I'm not saying semiautomatic military pattern firearms (which includes ones patterend after assault rifles AND submachine guns btw) should be completely illegal, but they sure as hell need to be kept track of in a better fashion than they are currently.

[Grinning Dragon]

All I see are a bunch of unsafe and risky conversions with no idea on how well the weapon will be reliable and whether or not the weapon will cycle or not safely. Then we get into the issue that the semi auto American version of AKs, the receivers are not made for full auto fire, and can lead to some disastrous results. This would be a don't try this at home kids.

Uh huh, and do you think safety really matters to either the gangbanger looking for extra fire and a way to get through those pesky walls and doors? Or the paranoid delusional firearms fetishist who thinks that filling out paperwork to make sure he's not a criminal and therefore fit to own a firearm is tantamount to the most awful egregious violation of a pseudo totalitarian (and fictitious) government cabal?

I'm not saying semiautomatic military pattern firearms (which includes ones patterned after assault rifles AND sub-machine guns btw) should be completely illegal, but they sure as hell need to be kept track of in a better fashion than they are currently.

I am going out on a limb, and say that most gangbangers are not going to waste their time in trying something like this, I just don't see it.
I am sure, they know someone who knows someone who can get them the real thing.
Paperwork and tracking weapons does not stop evil intent, never will. The other thing is, I really do not care if someone has filled out some paperwork or not, I just do not care, I have better things to do, then a whole lot of hand-wringing, that someone might have broken some stupid NFA regulation. If someone wants something bad enough, no law, god, deity, etc. is going to stop them. Not my place to tell them that they can or cannot have a full auto weapon or any type of firearms.

[Northern Dominus]

Uh huh, and do you think safety really matters to either the gangbanger looking for extra fire and a way to get through those pesky walls and doors? Or the paranoid delusional firearms fetishist who thinks that filling out paperwork to make sure he's not a criminal and therefore fit to own a firearm is tantamount to the most awful egregious violation of a pseudo totalitarian (and fictitious) government cabal?

I'm not saying semiautomatic military pattern firearms (which includes ones patterned after assault rifles AND sub-machine guns btw) should be completely illegal, but they sure as hell need to be kept track of in a better fashion than they are currently.

I am going out on a limb, and say that most gangbangers are not going to waste their time in trying something like this, I just don't see it.
I am sure, they know someone who knows someone who can get them the real thing.
Paperwork and tracking weapons does not stop evil intent, never will. The other thing is, I really do not care if someone has filled out some paperwork or not, I just do not care, I have better things to do, then a whole lot of hand-wringing, that someone might have broken some stupid NFA regulation. If someone wants something bad enough, no law, god, deity, etc. is going to stop them. Not my place to tell them that they can or cannot have a full auto weapon or any type of firearms.

Gangbangers don't have to make their own modifications to certain firearms to convert them to fully-automatic capable. Odds are their local black market firearms merchant does that sort of thing already, as youve explained. And I've explained time and again how these black market dealers get a lot of their weapons through straw purchasing semi-legally so I won't go there again.

And when will it be your place to say if a person shouldn't have access to a fully automatic firearm of some kind? When your block gets shot up in a drive by? If somebody you know and love gets killed in that drive by? Or if they get killed because some lunatic has an illegally modified fully automatic firearm and dumps magazine of magazine into the space they occupied, and all because some unscrupulous asshole at a gun show didn't feel like filling out the proper paperwork or doing a bit of tertiary probing as to why somebody wanted a military-pattern weapon in the first place? What will it take exactly?

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Yo, Dominus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yATeti5GmI8&t=09m35s
These are speeches made before the Assault Weapon Ban.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Fully automatic weapons are already illegal. Most people don't know this so they go along with the ban which is really on most semi-automatic weapons.

Full auto/select fire weapons aren't illegal, they're restricted. If a person can afford one, they can buy one made and registered with ATF before May 19, 1986 (they're very expensive, since there's a finite amount of them).

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

And no ban will change the fact that thousands of illegal guns are smuggled into the country from China.

Also, such a ban would do zip to put a dent in crime. Someone posted reliable stats demonstrating that around 0.02% - 1/5 of one percent! - of gun crimes involve assault rifles. How come no one is calling for a ban on pistols (which make up the majority of gun crimes)?

Furthermore, a large calibre pistol is a much more effective killing tool up close and personal. Rifles at very close range - such as the size of a classroom or movie theatre - will often produce "through-and-through" wounds, the bullet leaving with most of its energy. A .45 ACP hollow point slug will mushroom and stop in the body, dumping all of its energy into the victim. Assault rifles are designed to be their most effective at ranges of around 100 metres.

Now when you get to "hybrid" pistols such as the FN Five-seveN (which that army medic used) it is designed to be for maximum effect in both roles. I heard nary a peep about banning the Five-seveN, which can penetrate body armour at up to - sit down for this - 200 metres!

An assault rifle ban would be nothing but "feel-good" legislation (and cost a great deal of taxpayer money to enforce), and do diddley to stop murders. If Sandy Hook dude didn't have a Bushmaster, he would have used a heavy pistol (and probably killed a lot more people).

[Gun Manufacturers]

Why not 'control' guns from the other end of the deal and just make punishments for gun-related crime worse?

That and possible mandatory sanity checks upon purchase...

Sanity checks would probably disqualify the vast majority of weapon buyers.

"So sir, why are you buying this sub-military grade weapon?"

"Well, the police have better guns than me, so I've got to be ready!" or "In my day to day life, I have the need of a weapon that can fire an absurd quanity of lead downrange in so many seconds."

You forgot, "Well, I'm looking for an accurate semi-automatic firearm for target shooting", or "I collect militaria, including firearms".

[Omnicidal Maniacs]

Huh. I just read that Viginia Tech was done with two pistols. A 9mm and a flippin' .22 calibre! A flippin' .22!

(Research is a powerful thing.)

[Northern Dominus]

Yo, Dominus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yATeti5GmI8&t=09m35s
These are speeches made before the Assault Weapon Ban.

Right, we're supposed to believe an firearms fetishist puppet masquerading as a competent law enforcement officer named Leory Pyle.

And I've said before I'm not a fan of the term "assault weapon" either. It's too focused, too loaded to one side of the debate. A more correct term would be "combat oriented" firearms, meaning a weapon that has certain engineering and layout landmarks that denote a primary purpose of enganging and killing human beings in an assumed hostile situation. This encompasses semi-automatic firearms that are basically civilian-spec versions of assault rifles and submachine guns and = has nothing to do with the type of action (semiautomatic or fully automatic), nor the capacity of the magazine itself.

Plus, again, and again, as I've said I'm not in favor of an outright ban on combat-oriented firearms either. Tighter control yes, more oversight and tracking yes, more comprehensive testing and evaluation of firearms license holders yes, but an outright ban no.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Huh. I just read that Viginia Tech was done with two pistols. A 9mm and a flippin' .22 calibre! A flippin' .22!

(Research is a powerful thing.)

And no high-capacity magazines, just lots of them.

[Grinning Dragon]

I am going out on a limb, and say that most gangbangers are not going to waste their time in trying something like this, I just don't see it.
I am sure, they know someone who knows someone who can get them the real thing.
Paperwork and tracking weapons does not stop evil intent, never will. The other thing is, I really do not care if someone has filled out some paperwork or not, I just do not care, I have better things to do, then a whole lot of hand-wringing, that someone might have broken some stupid NFA regulation. If someone wants something bad enough, no law, god, deity, etc. is going to stop them. Not my place to tell them that they can or cannot have a full auto weapon or any type of firearms.

Gangbangers don't have to make their own modifications to certain firearms to convert them to fully-automatic capable. Odds are their local black market firearms merchant does that sort of thing already, as youve explained. And I've explained time and again how these black market dealers get a lot of their weapons through straw purchasing semi-legally so I won't go there again.

And when will it be your place to say if a person shouldn't have access to a fully automatic firearm of some kind? When your block gets shot up in a drive by? If somebody you know and love gets killed in that drive by? Or if they get killed because some lunatic has an illegally modified fully automatic firearm and dumps magazine of magazine into the space they occupied, and all because some unscrupulous asshole at a gun show didn't feel like filling out the proper paperwork or doing a bit of tertiary probing as to why somebody wanted a military-pattern weapon in the first place? What will it take exactly?

What will it take? NOTHING.
I have lost family and friends to gun fire, and self infliction. Laws such as the one you are railing about will not change anything, the human will, will always trump any law, edict, regulation, etc. We have laws on the books, they get caught, then they do the time, making something more illegal-er does no good, since it was already illegal. I am not going to waste my time on a law or some politician's definition of what is or is not illegal.

[Samozaryadnyastan]

Yo, Dominus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yATeti5GmI8&t=09m35s
These are speeches made before the Assault Weapon Ban.

Right, we're supposed to believe an firearms fetishist puppet masquerading as a competent law enforcement officer named Leory Pyle.

And I've said before I'm not a fan of the term "assault weapon" either. It's too focused, too loaded to one side of the debate. A more correct term would be "combat oriented" firearms, meaning a weapon that has certain engineering and layout landmarks that denote a primary purpose of enganging and killing human beings in an assumed hostile situation. This encompasses semi-automatic firearms that are basically civilian-spec versions of assault rifles and submachine guns and = has nothing to do with the type of action (semiautomatic or fully automatic), nor the capacity of the magazine itself.

Plus, again, and again, as I've said I'm not in favor of an outright ban on combat-oriented firearms either. Tighter control yes, more oversight and tracking yes, more comprehensive testing and evaluation of firearms license holders yes, but an outright ban no.

>ignoring the part of the video I actually linked to, which was Detective Jimmy Trahin testifying before the California State Assembly on the fact that of the fifty thousand or so firearms confiscated by 'gangbangers' by his department, over a twelve year period, not one single weapon had been converted to fully automatic.

I love how you go "firearms fetishist puppet masquerading as a competent law enforcement officer named Leory Pyle"
All he says is that the AWB is based upon both cosmetic features and misinformation.