Ban on "assault weapons" and/or high capacity magazines?

[Vitaphone Racing]

And how do you suppose it got to that state, being virtually untraceable and having a body attached to it?

Odds are it was bought via straw purchase at a gun show from a "private seller" who didn't feel any moral responsibility to run any sort of check regarding who they were selling to and instead went for the quick buck. Repeat a thousand times over and you start to have the gist of the problem at hand.

This is where making a background check mandatory for every single transfer of firearms ownership, either from private individuals or from registered firearms dealers, comes into play. It makes the mass buying of firearms that much more cost prohibitive, tamps down on straw purchases made by people under investigation for firearms trafficking, and makes the unscrupulous immoral bastards at the gun shows that help flood streets with untraceable firearms legally culpable for the murder they aid.

If somebody is THAT worried about the "big evil government" tracking their firearms purchases, then what exactly are they worried about? What are they trying to hide? What do they have planned that they need to make secretive purchases of firearms for, and that I might have to be worried about?

If you make every purchase go through an FFL, like I have suggested in pretty much every gun thread I have been in ever, then there really is no need for registration whatsoever. You can just re-trace it as we do now and since the 4473 has the new owner's name on it due to the FFL transfer, it goes to them. The person holding it isn't the owner? Arrest them and the previous owner for an illegal transaction (unless proven stolen). Registering wouldn't do anything but let the government know who has it when they really don't need to. They can just find out after it has been used in a crime pretty easily, and if the numbers are gone, then even a registered handgun/long gun would be untraceable anyway.

Isn't this what registration is though?

[Bafuria]

I found an article that I find quite interesting.

http://www.all-about-forensic-psycholog ... ticle.html

It wa written in 1957, apparently.

[Spreewerke]

If you make every purchase go through an FFL, like I have suggested in pretty much every gun thread I have been in ever, then there really is no need for registration whatsoever. You can just re-trace it as we do now and since the 4473 has the new owner's name on it due to the FFL transfer, it goes to them. The person holding it isn't the owner? Arrest them and the previous owner for an illegal transaction (unless proven stolen). Registering wouldn't do anything but let the government know who has it when they really don't need to. They can just find out after it has been used in a crime pretty easily, and if the numbers are gone, then even a registered handgun/long gun would be untraceable anyway.

Isn't this what registration is though?

No. The only person who has your name and serial number on the same sheet of paper is the gun store. After twenty (20) years, that paper is destroyed. The police, FBI, BATFE, etc., etc., can only access this paper if they are investigating a crime. They cannot just decide to drop in and look through the 4473s in the file cabinet.

[Grinning Dragon]

Isn't this what registration is though?

No. The only person who has your name and serial number on the same sheet of paper is the gun store. After twenty (20) years, that paper is destroyed. The police, FBI, BATFE, etc., etc., can only access this paper if they are investigating a crime. They cannot just decide to drop in and look through the 4473s in the file cabinet.

Nor can they request of copy of the log books be sent in a just because type request.

[Northern Dominus]

And how do you suppose it got to that state, being virtually untraceable and having a body attached to it?

Odds are it was bought via straw purchase at a gun show from a "private seller" who didn't feel any moral responsibility to run any sort of check regarding who they were selling to and instead went for the quick buck. Repeat a thousand times over and you start to have the gist of the problem at hand. (1)

This is where making a background check mandatory for every single transfer of firearms ownership, either from private individuals or from registered firearms dealers, comes into play (2). It makes the mass buying of firearms that much more cost prohibitive, tamps down on straw purchases made by people under investigation for firearms trafficking, and makes the unscrupulous immoral bastards at the gun shows that help flood streets with untraceable firearms legally culpable for the murder they aid (3).

If somebody is THAT worried about the "big evil government" tracking their firearms purchases, then what exactly are they worried about? What are they trying to hide? What do they have planned that they need to make secretive purchases of firearms for, and that I might have to be worried about?

1) OR, and bear with me here, just as likely (if not more so) you had a private seller who was/is supposed to base his entire purchase around an ATF-certified 'Does this guy seem legit to you?' and failed because he isn't psychic. Private people have no way of checking on whether the person is actually legally able to own a firearm, no way of telling whether he told the truth when he said he wasn't a felon, no way of telling if when he checked the box that said "I am of sound mind" on the sale papers he was ACTUALLY of sound mind. They're just supposed to KNOW. This is the problem.

2) I believe Spree has proposed just that...

3) Umm...Knowingly selling a firearm to someone that can't possess one (or to a 'straw' purchaser) is already illegal. People at gun shows and everywhere else private sales occur are already legally accountable for that and could theoretically even be held as an accomplice or an accessory to the crime.

4) I find the underlined portions of the final paragraph rather humorous, as one would be ripped to shreds for it were this a debate about the first amendment./notimportant

1) Which is why I'm all in favor of de-neutering the ATF's standards (courtesy of the NRA again) and not only making background checks available to private sellers but mandatory to execute as well.

3)It may be illegal but since it's impossible to track how many firearms go through the "gun show loophole" and end up on the street, and since there's no real meaningful penalty for that sale. Call me draconian but I believe that if a person sells a firearm to somebody else without a check, and then that person commits a felony with that firearm, the original seller is automatically considered an accessory to homicide and prosecuted as such.

4) Right, ripped to shreds. Because potentially hoarding firearms without so much as a cursory background check before using one of them to murder a local elected official because one person objected to their political platform is so totally covered by the 1st Amendment...or is it the 2nd, can't tell with all the screaming courtesy of Alex Jones and his insane mob these days.

And what would go into obtaining this Federal Firearms License exactly? What standards would a person be held to in order to obtain this license?

The same ones as they have now:

• Physical not-your-house storefront/brick-and-mortar store
• Business license because it's a commercial property
• BATFE-approved inventory system
• BATFE-approved security system
• BATFE-approved safe (see above)
• Insurance for all inventory items
• All FFL types required for your specific type of business: they range from basic "put two AR halves together" manufacturing (FFL01) to "I'm building machineguns post-1986" (SOT).

Now just try to imagine how much it would cost to buy/build/rent the building, pay for the insurance, pay for the metal bars over every door and window, pay for the security system, pay for the safe (hint: $5k+), have the appropriate inventory system, obtain your business license, purchase an FFL application (yes: you have to purchase the application), and then stock $50,000 worth of inventory before you even open the doors to the public.

Your background check has to be squeaky-clean to get accepted for an FFL, and if it is ever denied or revoked for any reason whatsoever, you may never reapply for one again.

So... if I'm reading this right... you're in favor of banning the sale of firearms directly between private citizens?

[Uawc]

These bans are one big non sequitur, as what they are attempting to ban are almost never used in violent crime.

I'm not going to even argue anymore about this because it won't change anything, but this whole gun control business is not only silly, but it is a further step towards making humanity weak, stupid and soft. It is also a threat to public safety unless you want police in every facility, on every corner.

These bans are only even being talked about because of all the ill-informed and ignorant people supporting them.

[Spreewerke]

1) OR, and bear with me here, just as likely (if not more so) you had a private seller who was/is supposed to base his entire purchase around an ATF-certified 'Does this guy seem legit to you?' and failed because he isn't psychic. Private people have no way of checking on whether the person is actually legally able to own a firearm, no way of telling whether he told the truth when he said he wasn't a felon, no way of telling if when he checked the box that said "I am of sound mind" on the sale papers he was ACTUALLY of sound mind. They're just supposed to KNOW. This is the problem.

2) I believe Spree has proposed just that...

3) Umm...Knowingly selling a firearm to someone that can't possess one (or to a 'straw' purchaser) is already illegal. People at gun shows and everywhere else private sales occur are already legally accountable for that and could theoretically even be held as an accomplice or an accessory to the crime.

4) I find the underlined portions of the final paragraph rather humorous, as one would be ripped to shreds for it were this a debate about the first amendment./notimportant

1) Which is why I'm all in favor of de-neutering the ATF's standards (courtesy of the NRA again) and not only making background checks available to private sellers but mandatory to execute as well.

3)It may be illegal but since it's impossible to track how many firearms go through the "gun show loophole" and end up on the street, and since there's no real meaningful penalty for that sale. Call me draconian but I believe that if a person sells a firearm to somebody else without a check, and then that person commits a felony with that firearm, the original seller is automatically considered an accessory to homicide and prosecuted as such.

4) Right, ripped to shreds. Because potentially hoarding firearms without so much as a cursory background check before using one of them to murder a local elected official because one person objected to their political platform is so totally covered by the 1st Amendment...or is it the 2nd, can't tell with all the screaming courtesy of Alex Jones and his insane mob these days.

The same ones as they have now:

• Physical not-your-house storefront/brick-and-mortar store
• Business license because it's a commercial property
• BATFE-approved inventory system
• BATFE-approved security system
• BATFE-approved safe (see above)
• Insurance for all inventory items
• All FFL types required for your specific type of business: they range from basic "put two AR halves together" manufacturing (FFL01) to "I'm building machineguns post-1986" (SOT).

Now just try to imagine how much it would cost to buy/build/rent the building, pay for the insurance, pay for the metal bars over every door and window, pay for the security system, pay for the safe (hint: $5k+), have the appropriate inventory system, obtain your business license, purchase an FFL application (yes: you have to purchase the application), and then stock $50,000 worth of inventory before you even open the doors to the public.

Your background check has to be squeaky-clean to get accepted for an FFL, and if it is ever denied or revoked for any reason whatsoever, you may never reapply for one again.

So... if I'm reading this right... you're in favor of banning the sale of firearms directly between private citizens?

I do not care if private citizens sell their firearms to one another. However, having the transfer go through an FFL (both parties meet at a gun store) is what I am suggesting. The seller then gets paid by the buyer and has the Form 4473s transferred over to where the buyer's name is now on the gun store's paperwork. The seller also knows the buyer is not a felon because, since it is being transferred through an FFL, they are subject to an NICS background check like any store-bought firearm currently is today. Once the background check is clear, the buyer pays the seller and the FFL holder (gun store) transfers the firearm to the new owner. The buyer/seller can then talk amongst themselves about who is going to pay the FFL/gun store the transfer fee (a payment for using their NICS background checking system: not dissimilar from transfer fees FFLs already have in place).

The seller makes sure his gun is sold to a law-abiding citizen, the firearm is now "matched" to the new owner, and they get paid like they would during any private sale.

The buyer gets the firearm they were wanting to buy, and the firearm is now under their name and they know their gun is not "hot" (FFL holders have access to a list that displays the model/serial number of "wanted" firearms connected to crimes).

The FFL holder get's $20-$50.00 through the transfer fee and, potentially, more business since the buyer will probably want ammo now, or the seller might see something on the shelf he likes now that he has a fistful of money.

Gifted firearms would be treated the same way. Lower the age of purchasing a handgun from an FFL to... let's say 19 so we know they're out of high school. If Daddy gifts Junior a Ruger 10/22 for his 15th birthday, they keep it registered to the father since it will be staying in the same house, anyway. It's basically a, "This is the gun you get to use that I happen to own." After Junior turns 18, since the 10/22 is a rifle, Father and Son go to the local gun store and have the rifle transferred to Junior on a 4473. It is now officially his. What about that GLOCK he got him as a graduation present? It stays at home with the father until it can be transferred to Junior at the age of 19.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Assault weapons are totally a shit load of guns, and what will I do without my thirty round magazines?

And you know how hard the deers are to hit without a BAR.

http://www.browning.com/products/catalo ... flag_=002b

[Choronzon]

I'm sorry what?

How many deaths by gun does it take to be statistically relevant? Also, how many armed robberies does it take?

Choose your next words carefully The Truth and LIght, they may be your last as a intelligent debater.

I'm sorry, who the fuck are you to say who is an intelligent debater?

Seriously.

[Gun Manufacturers]

High capacity is a relative term. A 30 round magazine is standard for military and police standard assault rifles, but in a civilian market where your average hunting rifle holds 5-15 rounds and a standard 9mm semi-automatic pistol holds 9-18 bullets per magazine on average then a 30 round magazine is most definitely high capacity.

But again, the issue in this case isn't just the capacity but the speed and ease of the reload. I'm very familiar with both the M4 carbine and the Remmington 870 12 gauge shotgun, and it takes a helluva lot less time to eject the magazine, insert a new one, then pull the charging handle on an M4 than it does to load 6 shells one at a time into the tube of the Remington 870.

agreed...........if your putting 30 rounds in a pistol that would be considered high capacity as that is not standard

an AR-15 was made with 30 rounds as standard however so it's not high capacity to have 30 rounds in that type of weapon.

The Kel-Tec PMR30 has a standard magazine capacity of 30 rounds. AFAIK, there are no reduced capacity magazines for it.

[North Calaveras]

Choose your next words carefully The Truth and LIght, they may be your last as a intelligent debater.

I'm sorry, who the fuck are you to say who is an intelligent debater?

Seriously.

I was kidding...I even posted a pic of the black guy from 300...

[Occupied Deutschland]

agreed...........if your putting 30 rounds in a pistol that would be considered high capacity as that is not standard

an AR-15 was made with 30 rounds as standard however so it's not high capacity to have 30 rounds in that type of weapon.

The Kel-Tec PMR30 has a standard magazine capacity of 30 rounds. AFAIK, there are no reduced capacity magazines for it.

Slightly off-topic, I've always found Kel-Tec rather humorous as a company. It's like a bunch of gun-nuts came together for the sole purpose of selling a bunch of scary black rifles (and pistols and shotguns) that were relatively cheap.

It's like their whole business model is based around "Man, F*** da' Brady Campaign, scary black weapons for the win!"

[North Calaveras]

The Kel-Tec PMR30 has a standard magazine capacity of 30 rounds. AFAIK, there are no reduced capacity magazines for it.

Slightly off-topic, I've always found Kel-Tec rather humorous as a company. It's like a bunch of gun-nuts came together for the sole purpose of selling a bunch of scary black rifles (and pistols and shotguns) that were relatively cheap.

It's like their whole business model is based around "Man, F*** da' Brady Campaign, scary black weapons for the win!"

I really like the KSG-12 to be honest, i have seen nothing else of interest.

[Spreewerke]

The Kel-Tec PMR30 has a standard magazine capacity of 30 rounds. AFAIK, there are no reduced capacity magazines for it.

Slightly off-topic, I've always found Kel-Tec rather humorous as a company. It's like a bunch of gun-nuts came together for the sole purpose of selling a bunch of scary black rifles (and pistols and shotguns) that were relatively cheap.

It's like their whole business model is based around "Man, F*** da' Brady Campaign, scary black weapons for the win!"

That would be true if they didn't produce false rarities. They even upped the price on their already-expensive KSGs entirely due to the AWB scare. It wasn't a, "I think this is why they rose the price..." it was a, "Here's a formal announcement from Kel-Tec: we're raising the price because, LAWL PROFITS."

I am not a huge fan of them, but there are far worse alternatives to Kel-Tecs.

[Occupied Deutschland]

Slightly off-topic, I've always found Kel-Tec rather humorous as a company. It's like a bunch of gun-nuts came together for the sole purpose of selling a bunch of scary black rifles (and pistols and shotguns) that were relatively cheap.

It's like their whole business model is based around "Man, F*** da' Brady Campaign, scary black weapons for the win!"

That would be true if they didn't produce false rarities. They even upped the price on their already-expensive KSGs entirely due to the AWB scare. It wasn't a, "I think this is why they rose the price..." it was a, "Here's a formal announcement from Kel-Tec: we're raising the price because, LAWL PROFITS."

I am not a huge fan of them, but there are far worse alternatives to Kel-Tecs.

I saw that announcement, I believe it falls under my definition of a 'dick-move'.

Of course, that applies to the private people doing the same thing as well. I saw a guy at a show over the weekend who was asking $800 for a WASR-10 and $700 for a tacticool SKS and SOLD them both to somebody. I guess it's the buyer's fault for not knowing enough but it still made me sad.

[Idaho Conservatives]

That would be true if they didn't produce false rarities. They even upped the price on their already-expensive KSGs entirely due to the AWB scare. It wasn't a, "I think this is why they rose the price..." it was a, "Here's a formal announcement from Kel-Tec: we're raising the price because, LAWL PROFITS."

I am not a huge fan of them, but there are far worse alternatives to Kel-Tecs.

I saw that announcement, I believe it falls under my definition of a 'dick-move'.

Of course, that applies to the private people doing the same thing as well. I saw a guy at a show over the weekend who was asking $800 for a WASR-10 and $700 for a tacticool SKS and SOLD them both to somebody. I guess it's the buyer's fault for not knowing enough but it still made me sad.

Now's not the time to be buying those. Just skimming a local auction company's web site, they have four AR-15s, and none are going for less than $1000 each. One is at $1400. Even a plain Jane SKS is nearing $500.

[Spreewerke]

I saw that announcement, I believe it falls under my definition of a 'dick-move'.

Of course, that applies to the private people doing the same thing as well. I saw a guy at a show over the weekend who was asking $800 for a WASR-10 and $700 for a tacticool SKS and SOLD them both to somebody. I guess it's the buyer's fault for not knowing enough but it still made me sad.

Now's not the time to be buying those. Just skimming a local auction company's web site, they have four AR-15s, and none are going for less than $1000 each. One is at $1400. Even a plain Jane SKS is nearing $500.

Gun store I work at (part-time, sort-of) sold a $450.00 Century Polish underfolder for $1,000.00 a week after the AWB scare. They also sold a ~$1,200.00 Les Baer AR-15 that everyone said was way too expensive. Its final price on GunBroker? $3,000.00.

[Alekera]

Personally, i like Kel-Tec.... they're very inventive.

I just hope, someday, they invent a tactical .44 magnum sub-rifle.

_{A guy can dream right?}

[Alekera]

Now's not the time to be buying those. Just skimming a local auction company's web site, they have four AR-15s, and none are going for less than $1000 each. One is at $1400. Even a plain Jane SKS is nearing $500.

Gun store I work at (part-time, sort-of) sold a $450.00 Century Polish underfolder for $1,000.00 a week after the AWB scare. They also sold a ~$1,200.00 Les Baer AR-15 that everyone said was way too expensive. Its final price on GunBroker? $3,000.00.

Yeah, ive recently looked up on gunbroker how much my wasr would be worth (note: i did a lot of work on it) and a standard wood-stocked wasr was right there in the $900 range..... I bought mine for $535 out the door. Of course that was a year ago i bought mine...

[Spreewerke]

Gun store I work at (part-time, sort-of) sold a $450.00 Century Polish underfolder for $1,000.00 a week after the AWB scare. They also sold a ~$1,200.00 Les Baer AR-15 that everyone said was way too expensive. Its final price on GunBroker? $3,000.00.

Yeah, ive recently looked up on gunbroker how much my wasr would be worth (note: i did a lot of work on it) and a standard wood-stocked wasr was right there in the $900 range..... I bought mine for $535 out the door. Of course that was a year ago i bought mine...

What does "a lot of work on it" constitute, exactly?

[Alekera]

Yeah, ive recently looked up on gunbroker how much my wasr would be worth (note: i did a lot of work on it) and a standard wood-stocked wasr was right there in the $900 range..... I bought mine for $535 out the door. Of course that was a year ago i bought mine...

What does "a lot of work on it" constitute, exactly?

Rail systems, collapsible stock, holographic sight. Put simply, replaced all the wood....

[Spreewerke]

What does "a lot of work on it" constitute, exactly?

Rail systems, collapsible stock, holographic sight. Put simply, replaced all the wood....

Depending on manufacturer and model, I'm afraid this would not constitute a lot of work on it...

Wouldn't happen to have a photo, would you?

[Alekera]

Rail systems, collapsible stock, holographic sight. Put simply, replaced all the wood....

Depending on manufacturer and model, I'm afraid this would not constitute a lot of work on it...

Wouldn't happen to have a photo, would you?

Not one I would want to show... But I can tell you it has a Mako rail handguard, a ATI collapsible stock, and a Sightmark holographic sight. It might not sound like alot of work on paper, but believe me, screwing on that Mako handguard was a SOB.

[Spreewerke]

Depending on manufacturer and model, I'm afraid this would not constitute a lot of work on it...

Wouldn't happen to have a photo, would you?

Not one I would want to show... But I can tell you it has a Mako rail handguard, a ATI collapsible stock, and a Sightmark holographic sight. It might not sound like alot of work on paper, but believe me, screwing on that Mako handguard was a SOB.

I feel as though this thread has just about ran its course, so I won't bother with spoilers. Here's mine:

[North Calaveras]

are they the same rifle cause one looks way cleaner ha and what model is that?