Mali asks France for help against extremists

[Conserative Morality]

The French Foreign legion makes you angry?

Perhaps it was the implication that there are not French citizens in la Légion étrangère? Or perhaps it was the idea that French intervention in Mali in the name of democracy isn't worth French lives. Either could be upsetting.

[Wallonochia]

The French Foreign legion makes you angry?

Not at all, it's the idea of "why should we risk French people, isn't that what we have foreigners for?". That's not even taking into account the fact that a significant amount of Sergeants to Adjutants are French citizens, as are nearly all officers in the Legion.

e:

Perhaps it was the implication that there are not French citizens in la Légion étrangère? Or perhaps it was the idea that French intervention in Mali in the name of democracy isn't worth French lives. Either could be upsetting.

Most, but not all, of the lower enlisted in the Legion are not French citizens.

[Benutanairan]

The French Foreign legion makes you angry?

Not at all, it's the idea of "why should we risk French people, isn't that what we have foreigners for?". That's not even taking into account the fact that a significant amount of Sergeants to Adjutants are French citizens, as are nearly all officers in the Legion.

e:

Perhaps it was the implication that there are not French citizens in la Légion étrangère? Or perhaps it was the idea that French intervention in Mali in the name of democracy isn't worth French lives. Either could be upsetting.

Most, but not all, of the lower enlisted in the Legion are not French citizens.

Well its more of the idea of the FFL being in Africa since its creation ( since all it does is maintain order in West Africa and keep west Africa's democracies from collapsing), why bother with the Army and air force. The FFL is basically West Africa's security force for all intents and purposes.

[Wallonochia]

Well its more of the idea of the FFL being in Africa since its creation, why bother with the Army?

Disregarding the practical fact that the Légion is integrated operationally into the Armée de Terre and not a seperate organism, this is again that idea of egalitarianism that we talked about in the other thread.

e: In the interest of disclosure, my knowledge of the Légion comes mostly from living outside of St. Cyr and talking with its residents, some of whom were Légion, and with a bit from talking to Legionnaires I've come across from time to time. I spent a number of years in the US miitary so Legionnaires are usually willing to chat with me. I'm not one of those Légion wannabe weirdos.

[Benutanairan]

Well its more of the idea of the FFL being in Africa since its creation, why bother with the Army?

Disregarding the practical fact that the Légion is integrated operationally into the Armée de Terre and not a seperate organism, this is again that idea of egalitarianism that we talked about in the other thread.

Given the legions status of quasi-autonomy within the army and its current deployments all over the middle east and Africa

why not just use them alongside the DGSE?

( im not advocating for full on dug in war like America and Afghanistan more of a quick blow and were out tactic)
Especially considering certain factors

That does force a question

does our country really have nothing better to do than play hide and seek violent militia addition and play around with certain legislation.

[Wallonochia]

Given the legions status of quasi-autonomy within the army and its current deployments all over the middle east and Africa

why not just use them alongside the DGSE?

especially considering the factor of involvement and funding of militias within mali is more than just a frontal offensive tactical insertion it would require familiarity with the areas and intelligence gathering.

The Legion has less and less autonomy as the years go on. But really, the most practical reason is that this isn't really the Legion's cup of tea. The Legion is somewhat like basic USMC infantry, they're very good at basic soldiering but not any good at things any more complicated than that. Sure, they do learn some French during their basic training but the language barrier is still there. I had a Legion sergent-chef once tell me that roughly 25% of his soldiers didn't really have any more than a basic knowledge of French.

Also, the Legion has a policy against soldiers serving in the country that they're originally from, so there wouldn't be as much local knowledge as the Legion really has. The policy does make a certain amount of sense, it's fairly cruel to ask a man to shoot his countrymen that he grew up with, but it does limit what could be the Legion's best potential resource.

[Conserative Morality]

Most, but not all, of the lower enlisted in the Legion are not French citizens.

Officers die in combat too.

[Wallonochia]

That does force a question

does our country really have nothing better to do than play hide and seek with islamist militias and play around with certain legislation.

I'm willing to bet we would agree on the answer to that.

[Benutanairan]

Given the legions status of quasi-autonomy within the army and its current deployments all over the middle east and Africa

why not just use them alongside the DGSE?

especially considering the factor of involvement and funding of militias within mali is more than just a frontal offensive tactical insertion it would require familiarity with the areas and intelligence gathering.

The Legion has less and less autonomy as the years go on. But really, the most practical reason is that this isn't really the Legion's cup of tea. The Legion is somewhat like basic USMC infantry, they're very good at basic soldiering but not any good at things any more complicated than that. Sure, they do learn some French during their basic training but the language barrier is still there. I had a Legion sergent-chef once tell me that roughly 25% of his soldiers didn't really have any more than a basic knowledge of French.

Also, the Legion has a policy against soldiers serving in the country that they're originally from, so there wouldn't be as much local knowledge as the Legion really has. The policy does make a certain amount of sense, it's fairly cruel to ask a man to shoot his countrymen that he grew up with, but it does limit what could be the Legion's best potential resource.

Hmm that actually makes sense, I wonder if the International Coalition attempt will be enforced on this one.

[Wallonochia]

Officers die in combat too.

On occasion, but they're a small minority, especially the way the French military conducts their business. They're actually fairly old school, without as much of the ridiculous rank inflation the US military has had.

Hmm that actually makes sense, I wonder if the International Coalition attempt will be enforced on this one.

I imagine that the most capable French units (DGSE, les commandos marine and such) will conduct operations when really necessary but more mundane troops will train Malian troops in basic soldiering, which is one of the biggest strengths of the French army.

[Costa Alegria]

And what makes one think French lives will be lost?

[Wallonochia]

And what makes one think French lives will be lost?

If French troops are on the ground doing direct combat operations it's pretty much inevitable. French troops are good at what they do but eventually somebody is going to get killed, either through negligence or just bad luck. Of course, if the French were to limit themselves to an advisory role they would have a lot less losses, even it would mean the conflict would last longer than it would have.

[Alice Gardens]

And what makes one think French lives will be lost?

dun dun dun!

French soldier killed and hostage feared dead in Somalia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20996963

Okay, so to summarize: 1 French solider dead, 1 French helicopter pilot dead (doesn't that make two?), 1 French hostage probably executed, at least 4 civilians dead (including pregnant woman), and 17 militants dead. Also, 1 French soldier captured who will probably be tortured and then killed unless rescued. Sounds like a botched operation to me, despite the kill/death ratio.

[New Chalcedon]

Francois Hollande should remember two things:

(1) He swore an oath to attend to the welfare of the French people, not the Malinese; and

(2) In a time of severe economic crisis for France, spending the billions of Euros this expedition will cost (much, much more if the rebels have anything like the degree of support among the populace I think they do) and killing dozens or hundreds of French servicepeople is not attending to the welfare of the French people.

Mali's government should deal with its problems itself. One constant of post-1960 politics is that Third World nations constantly try to have their cake and eat it - the West are all evil, imperialistic oppressors.....right up until the local dictator needs Western help to stay in power, steal the treasury and massacre his tribal opponents.

African politics is a hornets' nest that France has no business sticking its nose in.

[Benutanairan]

Francois Hollande should remember two things:

(1) He swore an oath to attend to the welfare of the French people, not the Malinese; and

(2) In a time of severe economic crisis for France, spending the billions of Euros this expedition will cost (much, much more if the rebels have anything like the degree of support among the populace I think they do) and killing dozens or hundreds of French servicepeople is not attending to the welfare of the French people.

Mali's government should deal with its problems itself. One constant of post-1960 politics is that Third World nations constantly try to have their cake and eat it - the West are all evil, imperialistic oppressors.....right up until the local dictator needs Western help to stay in power, steal the treasury and massacre his tribal opponents.

African politics is a hornets' nest that France has no business sticking its nose in.

How do you think I feel

Thank God I didn't vote for him.

[New Chalcedon]

Francois Hollande should remember two things:

(1) He swore an oath to attend to the welfare of the French people, not the Malinese; and

(2) In a time of severe economic crisis for France, spending the billions of Euros this expedition will cost (much, much more if the rebels have anything like the degree of support among the populace I think they do) and killing dozens or hundreds of French servicepeople is not attending to the welfare of the French people.

Mali's government should deal with its problems itself. One constant of post-1960 politics is that Third World nations constantly try to have their cake and eat it - the West are all evil, imperialistic oppressors.....right up until the local dictator needs Western help to stay in power, steal the treasury and massacre his tribal opponents.

African politics is a hornets' nest that France has no business sticking its nose in.

How do you think I feel

Thank God I didn't vote for him.

Hah! Sarkozy would have jumped at this chance to "demonstrate French leadership". If he had considered the costs to the French people, it would have been later.

[Divair]

On one hand, it's fighting against religious extremist groups. On the other hand, we're in a recession and should be focusing on the economy.


Damn it.

[Benutanairan]

How do you think I feel

Thank God I didn't vote for him.

Hah! Sarkozy would have jumped at this chance to "demonstrate French leadership". If he had considered the costs to the French people, it would have been later.

Basically Sarkozy and Hollande were shitty choices to pick to vote so I didn't vote for either. My respect for Sarkozy lost its way during his term.

[Suidwes-Afrika]

Ah, this is why Africans don't pull coups in former French colonies. If Paris doesn't like your new government, paratroopers start falling out of the sky the next day. No other European state has the spine, but France still does that sort of thing.

Examples? Defending Chad during the Libyan-Chadian wars, making and unmaking dictators in the Central African Republic, landing in the Comoros Islands after white mercenaries had seized the place, etc.

[Costa Alegria]

And what makes one think French lives will be lost?

dun dun dun!

French soldier killed and hostage feared dead in Somalia
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20996963

Okay, so to summarize: 1 French solider dead, 1 French helicopter pilot dead (doesn't that make two?), 1 French hostage probably executed, at least 4 civilians dead (including pregnant woman), and 17 militants dead. Also, 1 French soldier captured who will probably be tortured and then killed unless rescued. Sounds like a botched operation to me, despite the kill/death ratio.

Somalia isn't Mali. And as far as French military actions are concerned already, this is limited to air strikes thus far. There aren't any French troops on the ground in Mali.

[Alice Gardens]

Odd, not sure how I got Somalia and Mali confused, my bad. Too many tabs open probably. I swear they didn't have a somali map when I read it. Anyway 1 French pilot dead in Mali.

French troops continue operation against Mali Islamists
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20997522

Kinda makes you wonder why they don't get their hostages back first then, before intervening in Mali.

[Farnhamia]

Odd, not sure how I got Somalia and Mali confused, my bad. Too many tabs open probably. I swear they didn't have a somali map when I read it. Anyway 1 French pilot dead in Mali.

French troops continue operation against Mali Islamists
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-20997522

Kinda makes you wonder why they don't get their hostages back first then, before intervening in Mali.

Next time I see M. Hollande, I'll ask him. And the Malians asked for help.

[Souseiseki]

i am a big baby and am incapable of really understanding this on a level beyond "france, africa, lol"

try not to fuck it up too badly

[The Matthew Islands]

This is a good thing since IIRC Mali has always been one of the more stable African nations. Also the extremists that the Malian and French Governments are now fighting are a threat to many of the ancient treasures in Mali such as those in Timbuktu which they have declared Blasphemous to their version of Sharia or something and it'd be a bit shit to lose all that history.