Private vs. Public Sectors

[Neo Art]

Neo Art tends to do that.

It's the first thread where Neo Art hasn't insulted me in some way- and it's fine because it is cleverly worded to prevent flaming accusations.

I don't....recall having done so, but in fairness, a lot of my general demeanor tends to come across as insulting, when it's more just generall gruffness I seem to exude. It's sorta a habit, a bit of "good morning neighbor, and go fuck yourself sideways".

The question is reasonable enough, if we have to accept that hte public sector CAN provide services, why not have them provide ALL services. And the answer to that is, by and large, profit motive is a good thing, when...well...reasonable. It seeks to cut costs, eliminate waste, be efficient, and innovate to stay competative. These are "good things". And government lacks them. Trust me, I know, I work for it.

The argument of course is that it must BE reasonable. As the Ford Pinto, McDonald's coffee and the opening scenes of "Fight Club" go to show, if you let that go TOO far, then the human element gets seen as "just another cost". That we'll avoid fixing a danger to our product if it's cheaper to just settle the lawsuits when people inevitably die then that's just bottom line thinking, it's trading lives for dollars. It's hiring children in indonesia for pennies an hour, and 14 hour days because it's cheaper.

Yes, private entities, given a for profit motive, will tend to cut waste. Sometimes that waste is people. That's going to far.

Government needs to:

1) ensure the necessary things get provided for, and;
2) keep profit motive in line

The rest can generally be handled by private sector, with some negotiation around the edges.

[Saruhan]

Corn ethanol is extremely inefficient

Not really. It's only inefficient if you try to use it to power engines designed to function on gasoline.

Not that, it's more of a "There are people starving and we're using food to power our cars"

[Divair]

Not really. It's only inefficient if you try to use it to power engines designed to function on gasoline.

Not that, it's more of a "There are people starving and we're using food to power our cars"

Food distribution systems are fucked up. Fix those and you'd have more than enough food for everyone.

[Sibirsky]

With the realization that the public sector can be just as efficient if not more efficient in areas such as healthcare, education, energy, defense, and utilities, why not nationalize all businesses and run them for the public good? Is the market economy no longer feasible? Is the private sector overrated? Contrary to popular opinion, it is possible to make a public sector industry work more efficiently than private sector industry, but what determines what works best?

If you think this is a good idea, then explain the following:
Countries such as South Korea and Singapore spend less than 20% of GDP on government, and produce fast-growing economies.
Social democracies such as the Scandinavian countries promote free trade and private enterprise.
There has never been a truly communist or socialist country, just as how there has never been a true laissez-faire capitalist country. All attempts at creating these have failed.

I'm simply curious as to what determines what businesses should be state-run and what should be in private hands to create an optimal economy.

The private sector is almost always more efficient for a myriad of reasons I cba to list right now.

[Priory Academy USSR]

That said, the private sector cannot and should not be trusted with trains. They ran it so badly the government had to buy it back.

we're still trying to get our trains back. it's probably illegal under EU law. the government and tits keep trying to pretend that the problem is that it just wasn't privatized hard enough and maybe it should be privatized more and needs just a bit more competition. (note: competition with trains ahahaha). it's quite a pain in the arse.

it's also annoying that we have to fucking buy it back because they can't run it properly after some idiots sold it with the false promise it'd be be run better. if i was leader i'd just say they've failed to meet contract obligations and take it all back and tell them they're lucky for any pittance i give them, but maybe i'm a bit loopy.

at least they're not killing people with "competition will reduce energy prices" *all the energy companies increase their prices at the same time*. or like infection rates rose significantly after NHS cleaning was outsourced to the point we've now banned it in scotland.

sorry this is basically a rant my eyes just fill blood and a large british flag starts waving in my head and is slowly replaced by a scottish/red one as i start banging the keyboard as soon as i see someone mention trains

Yeah. IIRC, most of the major newspapers (which suggests that the large majority of the reader base is in support too) supported some scale of trains renationalisation after the blunder where we lost a few hundred million, but still no major party is in favour of it

[Souseiseki]

Basically, overall quality and coverage matters more than equality of coverage. That's a fair argument, even it might piss the left wing off for its inequality and "contribution to social degradation because private schools teach elites how to be snobs".

An issue with culture more than fiscal policy, but apparently blaming everything on the private sector is easier for some people. Thankfully haven't encountered many of them.

yeah man think of all the good shit eton graduates are doing for the country and society right now. they're basically saving us.

[Divair]

An issue with culture more than fiscal policy, but apparently blaming everything on the private sector is easier for some people. Thankfully haven't encountered many of them.

yeah man think of all the good shit eton graduates are doing for the country and society right now. they're basically saving us.

It's a graduate's fault the job market is fucked up?

[Saruhan]

Not that, it's more of a "There are people starving and we're using food to power our cars"

Food distribution systems are fucked up. Fix those and you'd have more than enough food for everyone.

Still, I think it would simply to wise to grow food to eat rather then power our cars and shit, plus wasn't there some form of algae that was around 200 times more efficient then Corn based ethanol but didn't have any funds because the central states wanted to keep their subsidies?

[Death Metal]

Not really. It's only inefficient if you try to use it to power engines designed to function on gasoline.

Not that, it's more of a "There are people starving and we're using food to power our cars"

Corn isn't even a good food crop anyway, it's largely a filler. We can't even digest it properly.

[Souseiseki]

yeah man think of all the good shit eton graduates are doing for the country and society right now. they're basically saving us.

It's a graduate's fault the job market is fucked up?

if you want to say the job market is the biggest problem now, i could probably argue that, yes. eton graduates are actively and directly contributing to making the economy worse against all advice and reason because they are fucking idiots.

[The Reasonable]

It's the first thread where Neo Art hasn't insulted me in some way- and it's fine because it is cleverly worded to prevent flaming accusations.

I don't....recall having done so, but in fairness, a lot of my general demeanor tends to come across as insulting, when it's more just generall gruffness I seem to exude. It's sorta a habit, a bit of "good morning neighbor, and go fuck yourself sideways".

The question is reasonable enough, if we have to accept that hte public sector CAN provide services, why not have them provide ALL services. And the answer to that is, by and large, profit motive is a good thing, when...well...reasonable. It seeks to cut costs, eliminate waste, be efficient, and innovate to stay competative. These are "good things". And government lacks them. Trust me, I know, I work for it.

The argument of course is that it must BE reasonable. As the Ford Pinto, McDonald's coffee and the opening scenes of "Fight Club" go to show, if you let that go TOO far, then the human element gets seen as "just another cost". That we'll avoid fixing a danger to our product if it's cheaper to just settle the lawsuits when people inevitably die then that's just bottom line thinking, it's trading lives for dollars. It's hiring children in indonesia for pennies an hour, and 14 hour days because it's cheaper.

Yes, private entities, given a for profit motive, will tend to cut waste. Sometimes that waste is people. That's going to far.

Government needs to:

1) ensure the necessary things get provided for, and;
2) keep profit motive in line

The rest can generally be handled by private sector, with some negotiation around the edges.

So in effect, you're a moderate as well, a proponent of a mixed-market economy. At least we've reached agreement on something for all the time we've been on NSG together.

Not that, it's more of a "There are people starving and we're using food to power our cars"

Food distribution systems are fucked up. Fix those and you'd have more than enough food for everyone.

Elaborate please.

[Divair]

It's a graduate's fault the job market is fucked up?

if you want to say the job market is the biggest problem now, i could probably argue that, yes. eton graduates are actively and directly contributing to making the economy worse against all advice and reason because they are fucking idiots.

Do you have evidence for what you are saying and evidence this is:

A. Relevant to all private schools.
B. Fixed by banning private schools.

[Divair]

Elaborate please.

It's a combination of:
Food being wasted
Certain parts of the world consuming too much
Certain parts of the world being unable to afford food
Certain parts of the world being unable to grow food because they're shit on by international corporations

[Mike the Progressive]

With the realization that the public sector can be just as efficient if not more efficient in areas such as healthcare, education, energy, defense, and utilities, why not nationalize all businesses and run them for the public good? Is the market economy no longer feasible? Is the private sector overrated? Contrary to popular opinion, it is possible to make a public sector industry work more efficiently than private sector industry, but what determines what works best?

If you think this is a good idea, then explain the following:
Countries such as South Korea and Singapore spend less than 20% of GDP on government, and produce fast-growing economies.
Social democracies such as the Scandinavian countries promote free trade and private enterprise.
There has never been a truly communist or socialist country, just as how there has never been a true laissez-faire capitalist country. All attempts at creating these have failed.

I'm simply curious as to what determines what businesses should be state-run and what should be in private hands to create an optimal economy.

It varies, there is no concrete list of what they government should and shouldn't do. It's just historically countries that have tried to take on a lot without protecting private property or had a great deal of tariffs and/or taxes have failed.

All the countries you listed, especially the Nordic models, have increasingly liberalized in the last couple of decades.

So optimally very little.

[Death Metal]

Elaborate please.

It's a combination of:
Food being wasted
Certain parts of the world consuming too much
Certain parts of the world being unable to afford food
Certain parts of the world being unable to grow food because they're shit on by international corporations

Also: Free Rice movment is awesome and people should support it moar.

[Divair]

It's a combination of:
Food being wasted
Certain parts of the world consuming too much
Certain parts of the world being unable to afford food
Certain parts of the world being unable to grow food because they're shit on by international corporations

Also: Free Rice movment is awesome and people should support it moar.

Definitely. Also Kiva, especially in agricultural projects.

[Souseiseki]

Elaborate please.

It's a combination of:
Food being wasted
Certain parts of the world consuming too much
Certain parts of the world being unable to afford food
Certain parts of the world being unable to grow food because they're shit on by international corporations

[Shin Jang]

Health care and Education must be public.

Everything else, private.

[Divair]

It's a combination of:
Food being wasted
Certain parts of the world consuming too much
Certain parts of the world being unable to afford food
Certain parts of the world being unable to grow food because they're shit on by international corporations

It's late and I'm sick so I can't think. Who is that and how is he relevant?

[Mike the Progressive]

I'll start.


State-run:
Healthcare (with supplemental)
Education (private schools available)
Justice system
Military
Public transport (private also available)
Energy (private also)



Will edit as people post stuff I forgot.

True enough, but take it to its extremes- that public sector works better than private sector- and you have a completely nationalized economy.

Would that work better? If not, then why some industries but not others?

Look, it never works better. Never. But sometimes efficiency and competition is not what you are looking for. It's why the military, for all intents and purposes, is "socialist" -not really, but it's essentially a government monopoly. It's why people want public healthcare, not because it will increase efficiency and quality, but so everybody can have access to it.

To be efficient, you have to have competition, and to keep competing, you have to increasing the quality of your product or service. The problem is when we talk about hospitals, especially people who can't pay, or people who are starving and need aid, it's not efficient to feed or take care of them.

[Souseiseki]

It's late and I'm sick so I can't think. Who is that and how is he relevant?

thomas sankara

making his country food self-sufficient

[Mike the Progressive]

It's late and I'm sick so I can't think. Who is that and how is he relevant?

Well obviously, he being black means he's going to steal your food. Shame on you Souseiksekidffddfdfdf, not all black people are thieves.

Just the ones who steal presidential elections.

[Aethelstania]

It's a graduate's fault the job market is fucked up?

if you want to say the job market is the biggest problem now, i could probably argue that, yes. eton graduates are actively and directly contributing to making the economy worse against all advice and reason because they are fucking idiots.

... swooping ...

[Divair]

It's late and I'm sick so I can't think. Who is that and how is he relevant?

thomas sankara

making his country food self-sufficient

I see.

[Neutraligon]

Health care and Education must be public.

Everything else, private.

Wait the military should be private. justice should be private, regulation should be private?