Private vs. Public Sectors

[Divair]

Health care and Education must be public.

Everything else, private.

Wait the military should be private. justice should be private, regulation should be private?

Fire department, too

[Mike the Progressive]

Health care and Education must be public.

Everything else, private.

Wait the military should be private. justice should be private, regulation should be private?

Regulations, for the most part, are stupid. Written and regulated by the very people who caused them to become a regulation.

[Neutraligon]

Wait the military should be private. justice should be private, regulation should be private?

Regulations, for the most part, are stupid. Written and regulated by the very people who caused them to become a regulation.

So...making sure we aren't poisoned by our medicine is stupid? Making sure what we eat doesn't include harmful substances is stupid? Ensuring the cars you drive are safe to drive is stupid? There is a point in which regulation goes to far, but having no regulation is also pretty stupid. I would rather not live in a society of caveat emptor thank you very much.

[Death Metal]

Wait the military should be private. justice should be private, regulation should be private?

Regulations, for the most part, are stupid. Written and regulated by the very people who caused them to become a regulation.

Words can not express how wrong this is.

[Souseiseki]

Regulations, for the most part, are stupid. Written and regulated by the very people who caused them to become a regulation.

So...making sure we aren't poisoned by our medicine is stupid? Making sure what we eat doesn't include harmful substances is stupid? Ensuring the cars you drive are safe to drive is stupid?

not saying mike the progressive is this bad, but he might be

if people make poison medicine, people will die and then the free market will kick in and people won't buy that companies medicine and then they will lose money and then people won't make poison medicine anymore. this is what libertarians literally believe. trust me i am an lf veteran expert.

[Greater Belkan Reich]

I don't know exactly what direction the conversation has went in but I do believe that the public sector will never be able to successfully compete with the private in certain sectors because of incentive. What's the incentive for a public employee to do better at his job if he knows he is going to receive a paycheck no matter what?

[Divair]

So...making sure we aren't poisoned by our medicine is stupid? Making sure what we eat doesn't include harmful substances is stupid? Ensuring the cars you drive are safe to drive is stupid?

not saying mike the progressive is this bad, but he might be

if people make poison medicine, people will die and then the free market will kick in and people won't buy that companies medicine and then they will lose money and then people won't make poison medicine anymore. this is what libertarians literally believe. trust me i am an lf veteran expert.

It's actually kind of scary to watch.

[Divair]

I don't know exactly what direction the conversation has went in but I do believe that the public sector will never be able to successfully compete with the private in certain sectors because of incentive. What's the incentive for a public employee to do better at his job if he knows he is going to receive a paycheck no matter what?

You know you can be fired.. right? It's not like you gain immunity to being fired once you join the government.

[Death Metal]

What's the incentive for a public employee to do better at his job if he knows he is going to receive a paycheck no matter what?

Because he can get fired too.

[Souseiseki]

I don't know exactly what direction the conversation has went in but I do believe that the public sector will never be able to successfully compete with the private in certain sectors because of incentive. What's the incentive for a public employee to do better at his job if he knows he is going to receive a paycheck no matter what?

have you never met a person that's proud of their work

You know you can be fired.. right?

UNIONS!!!!

[Neo Art]

So...making sure we aren't poisoned by our medicine is stupid? Making sure what we eat doesn't include harmful substances is stupid? Ensuring the cars you drive are safe to drive is stupid?

not saying mike the progressive is this bad, but he might be

if people make poison medicine, people will die and then the free market will kick in and people won't buy that companies medicine and then they will lose money and then people won't make poison medicine anymore. this is what libertarians literally believe. trust me i am an lf veteran expert.

And once again, proving my on going theory that if you stick around NSG enough you eventually run into a situation where you've already addressed every single argument that comes up:

The problem with philosophies like this is that the world the proponents try to create is a nightmarish hellhole, even if it proceeds EXACTLY as they want it to.

The basic premise behind the argument is this: if a company sets up shop, selling rat poison in a capsule labeled "cancer cure", we don't need government to tell them they can't do that. We don't need government to require them to test the drug to ensure it ACTUALLY treats cancer. We don't need government to make them jump through all these beurocratic hoops. Let them sell their fake cancer cure and if a bunch of people die, well, then that company loses all credibility in the market place, people stop buying its products, they get sued for fraud, and they go bankrupt, thus they exit the market. AND they did it a whole lot cheaper, and with far less waste, then that whole governmental beurocracy.

I disagree with that premise. I disagree that information flows so easily or so clearly, ESPECIALLY if you allow the very company to control the flow of the information, but let's assume, for the moment that the OP is 100% correct. The company is revealed to be a sham, and is removed from the marketplace, completely free of governmental intervention, purely by free market pressures.

And how was such a discovery made? Well, you sell, it was all those people that...you know...died.

So what is the cost of this perfect system? How is the price of this information paid? In blood. In the bodies of those hurt or killed by defective, untested, unsafe, and thoroughly unsound products.

Strip away the fancy talk, the heated rhetoric and the raving and ranting against "statists" and all the OP suggests is legalizing the practice of snake oil salesmen.

Now I know what's coming next, a self fulfilling prophecy by the OP. Since firms KNOW this is the case, KNOW they'll be driven out of business, KNOW they'll lose in the long run, that's enough incentive to be honest from the get go. Not sell fake cancer drugs because, if they did, they know the outcome.

This is, of course, bullshit, for the very reason that it happens anyway. It already occurs, even under the scheme of governmental regulation.

The term "snake oil salesman" doesn't come out of a vaccuum, after all.

[Death Metal]

I don't know exactly what direction the conversation has went in but I do believe that the public sector will never be able to successfully compete with the private in certain sectors because of incentive. What's the incentive for a public employee to do better at his job if he knows he is going to receive a paycheck no matter what?

You know you can be fired.. right? It's not like you gain immunity to being fired once you join the government.

Seriously. Isn't being fired from the police something that happens to like... every movie detective ever?

[Divair]

not saying mike the progressive is this bad, but he might be

if people make poison medicine, people will die and then the free market will kick in and people won't buy that companies medicine and then they will lose money and then people won't make poison medicine anymore. this is what libertarians literally believe. trust me i am an lf veteran expert.

And once again, proving my on going theory that if you stick around NSG enough you eventually run into a situation where you've already addressed every single argument that comes up:

The problem with philosophies like this is that the world the proponents try to create is a nightmarish hellhole, even if it proceeds EXACTLY as they want it to.

The basic premise behind the argument is this: if a company sets up shop, selling rat poison in a capsule labeled "cancer cure", we don't need government to tell them they can't do that. We don't need government to require them to test the drug to ensure it ACTUALLY treats cancer. We don't need government to make them jump through all these beurocratic hoops. Let them sell their fake cancer cure and if a bunch of people die, well, then that company loses all credibility in the market place, people stop buying its products, they get sued for fraud, and they go bankrupt, thus they exit the market. AND they did it a whole lot cheaper, and with far less waste, then that whole governmental beurocracy.

I disagree with that premise. I disagree that information flows so easily or so clearly, ESPECIALLY if you allow the very company to control the flow of the information, but let's assume, for the moment that the OP is 100% correct. The company is revealed to be a sham, and is removed from the marketplace, completely free of governmental intervention, purely by free market pressures.

And how was such a discovery made? Well, you sell, it was all those people that...you know...died.

So what is the cost of this perfect system? How is the price of this information paid? In blood. In the bodies of those hurt or killed by defective, untested, unsafe, and thoroughly unsound products.

Strip away the fancy talk, the heated rhetoric and the raving and ranting against "statists" and all the OP suggests is legalizing the practice of snake oil salesmen.

Now I know what's coming next, a self fulfilling prophecy by the OP. Since firms KNOW this is the case, KNOW they'll be driven out of business, KNOW they'll lose in the long run, that's enough incentive to be honest from the get go. Not sell fake cancer drugs because, if they did, they know the outcome.

This is, of course, bullshit, for the very reason that it happens anyway. It already occurs, even under the scheme of governmental regulation.

The term "snake oil salesman" doesn't come out of a vaccuum, after all.

That was good. Have some bacon.

[Neutraligon]

So...making sure we aren't poisoned by our medicine is stupid? Making sure what we eat doesn't include harmful substances is stupid? Ensuring the cars you drive are safe to drive is stupid?

not saying mike the progressive is this bad, but he might be

if people make poison medicine, people will die and then the free market will kick in and people won't buy that companies medicine and then they will lose money and then people won't make poison medicine anymore. this is what libertarians literally believe. trust me i am an lf veteran expert.

Only if people know why others are dying. If there is enough profit and few enough people know that the medicine is what is causing people to die, than there is no reason to stop selling it.

Oh and what was said above.

Regulation exists because the free market cannot regulate itself, we can see that from the late 1800s and early 1900s. Ever read fast food nation? Those issues occur even with regulation. Hell even with regulation we still have issue with food containing parasites and the such. Regulation is far from stupid, however it does need to be done properly, which at this point in time it is not.

[Divair]

not saying mike the progressive is this bad, but he might be

if people make poison medicine, people will die and then the free market will kick in and people won't buy that companies medicine and then they will lose money and then people won't make poison medicine anymore. this is what libertarians literally believe. trust me i am an lf veteran expert.

Only if people know why others are dying. If there is enough profit and few enough people know that the medicine is what is causing people to die, than there is no reason to stop selling it.

Also it implies that there isn't a monopoly which can't be shut down.

[Neutraligon]

Only if people know why others are dying. If there is enough profit and few enough people know that the medicine is what is causing people to die, than there is no reason to stop selling it.

Also it implies that there isn't a monopoly which can't be shut down.

True.

[Greater Belkan Reich]

Yes you only do the bare minimum so that you don't get fired. Instead of working hard and trying to advance, you just put in your hours and wait for your check.

[Souseiseki]

Yes you only do the bare minimum so that you don't get fired. Instead of working hard and trying to advance, you just put in your hours and wait for your check.

why can't you do that in the private sector? you're aware you're talking entirely out of your own arse at this point, right?

[Divair]

Yes you only do the bare minimum so that you don't get fired. Instead of working hard and trying to advance, you just put in your hours and wait for your check.

Which you can do in both a private and public company.

What in the fuck is your point?

[Neutraligon]

Yes you only do the bare minimum so that you don't get fired. Instead of working hard and trying to advance, you just put in your hours and wait for your check.

There is the ability to advance in the government you know? The same can be said for private business. There are still those who also feel their job is important or enjoyable.

[Neo Art]

Yes you only do the bare minimum so that you don't get fired. Instead of working hard and trying to advance, you just put in your hours and wait for your check.

Sure, if you like never getting a raise or promotion, why not? Same in private sector really. Any individual not interested in advancement will work only hard enough to not get fired. It's a demonstrated principle.

Does nobody watch Office Space anymore?

[Sibirsky]

Yes you only do the bare minimum so that you don't get fired. Instead of working hard and trying to advance, you just put in your hours and wait for your check.

why can't you do that in the private sector? you're aware you're talking entirely out of your own arse at this point, right?

I do that in the private sector.

I am in a dead end job. What is the point of excelling?

[Mike the Progressive]

So...making sure we aren't poisoned by our medicine is stupid? Making sure what we eat doesn't include harmful substances is stupid? Ensuring the cars you drive are safe to drive is stupid?

not saying mike the progressive is this bad, but he might be

if people make poison medicine, people will die and then the free market will kick in and people won't buy that companies medicine and then they will lose money and then people won't make poison medicine anymore. this is what libertarians literally believe. trust me i am an lf veteran expert.

I did say for the most part. And you're correct, in the free-market perspective, it would be bad business to have medicine that kills the consumer. Why? You want them to keep on purchasing that medicine. To buy other products they may make. You want them to drive safe cars so that they can come back to the dealer to buy another for their kid or to pay to have their oil changed. And it actually makes sense.

Companies are for profits. Profits require consumers. Dead consumers means less profits. Less profits is bad.

But the problem arises with short cuts that companies take and while the market would undoubtedly address that (through a lawsuit, through peer reviews, through bankruptcy, etc.), it just seems so heartless.

[Glossotria]

This thread makes me remember something the foreman working on our railroad station once told a group of students:

"I finally decided that I wanted a job where if I did well I got a raise and if I did poorly I got fired. I had to get out of the public sector."

I'm not saying that there should be no public sector (CLEARLY we need government regulation, and they pay for the best roads and general public works), but I though that quote was illustrative of the dis-incentivization that seems to happen in government.

[Mike the Progressive]

not saying mike the progressive is this bad, but he might be

if people make poison medicine, people will die and then the free market will kick in and people won't buy that companies medicine and then they will lose money and then people won't make poison medicine anymore. this is what libertarians literally believe. trust me i am an lf veteran expert.

Only if people know why others are dying. If there is enough profit and few enough people know that the medicine is what is causing people to die, than there is no reason to stop selling it.

Oh and what was said above.

Regulation exists because the free market cannot regulate itself, we can see that from the late 1800s and early 1900s. Ever read fast food nation? Those issues occur even with regulation. Hell even with regulation we still have issue with food containing parasites and the such. Regulation is far from stupid, however it does need to be done properly, which at this point in time it is not.

I hadn't realized the government breaking up and banning unions in the late 1800s and early 1900s, providing companies with subsidies and tariffs to protect domestic businesses was "free market."