Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Crimes or Reasonable Use of Force?

[United States of Peace]

I stand corrected on that, but my point still stands. FDR did provoke Japan into invading the rest of SE Asia by cutting off oil and rubber shipments.

"Stop invading shit"
"No."
"Fine, we'll embargo you so you stop invading shit."
"Imma invade more shit now, fuck you."

The onus is still on the Japanese here. FDR's defense of the region isn't provocation, it's expected to happen when an allies territorial sovereignty is threatened.

Well, its not like Japan was invading the mainlands of said allies, but the Empires of those nations. Japan invaded the European colonies justifying it on anti-colonialism and liberating them. Unforuntly, the Japanese wern't much better than the Europeans. And the Invasion of China, was justifed by a provocation by China, which i believe is now known as fake.

[Stattr]

I beleive it was the germans.


Told you. My dad has footage of the WWII and WWI videos, that he never took but their was a video made for both wars not fake hollywood ones. He also has the real strory of the civil war but that's not related to this topic.

If your father has video footage of the Civil War, you had better be watching the Ducks and Beavers.

[Sdaeriji]

The US had way more navy capicity than the Soviets, again, how did the Soviets change the thinking of the Japs?

I beleive it was the germans.

What is this I don't even.

Told you. My dad has footage of the WWII and WWI videos, that he never took but their was a video made for both wars not fake hollywood ones. He also has the real strory of the civil war but that's not related to this topic.

There's no actual footage of Yamamoto making that statement because he never made that statement.

[Mkuki]

I stand corrected on that, but my point still stands. FDR did provoke Japan into invading the rest of SE Asia by cutting off oil and rubber shipments.

"Stop invading shit"
"No."
"Fine, we'll embargo you so you stop invading shit."
"Imma invade more shit now, fuck you."

The onus is still on the Japanese here. FDR's defense of the region isn't provocation, it's expected to happen when an allies territorial sovereignty is threatened.

I'm not saying the Japanese aren't at fault. I'm just saying that FDR still has his share of the blame for further escalating the war.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

"Stop invading shit"
"No."
"Fine, we'll embargo you so you stop invading shit."
"Imma invade more shit now, fuck you."

The onus is still on the Japanese here. FDR's defense of the region isn't provocation, it's expected to happen when an allies territorial sovereignty is threatened.

Well, its not like Japan was invading the mainlands of said allies, but the Empires of those nations. Japan invaded the European colonies justifying it on anti-colonialism and liberating them. Unforuntly, the Japanese wern't much better than the Europeans. And the Invasion of China, was justifed by a provocation by China, which i believe is now known as fake.

It was hilariously fabricated. The League of Nations even recognised it as rubbish at the time, which caused the Japanese to storm out.

[Stattr]

I beleive it was the germans.


Told you. My dad has footage of the WWII and WWI videos, that he never took but their was a video made for both wars not fake hollywood ones. He also has the real strory of the civil war but that's not related to this topic.

There's no actual footage of Yamamoto making that statement because he never made that statement.

Not footage, they are called historical records.

[United States of Peace]

Well, its not like Japan was invading the mainlands of said allies, but the Empires of those nations. Japan invaded the European colonies justifying it on anti-colonialism and liberating them. Unforuntly, the Japanese wern't much better than the Europeans. And the Invasion of China, was justifed by a provocation by China, which i believe is now known as fake.

It was hilariously fabricated. The League of Nations even recognised it as rubbish at the time, which caused the Japanese to storm out.

I do wish Europe and the USA cared enough about China at the time to deter Japan with something more than token threats, might have stopped Japan from reaching the point it did and invading the rest of Asia.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

It was hilariously fabricated. The League of Nations even recognised it as rubbish at the time, which caused the Japanese to storm out.

I do wish Europe and the USA cared enough about China at the time to deter Japan with something more than token threats, might have stopped Japan from reaching the point it did and invading the rest of Asia.

They didn't have much interest in protecting China. America, Britain and the Dutch all struck under-the-table agreements with Japan about recognising and respecting their various colonial interests.

It was only when Japan was poised to become more than a regional power that they began taking notice.

[Sdaeriji]

There's no actual footage of Yamamoto making that statement because he never made that statement.

Not footage, they are called historical records.

At the end of the attack upon Pearl Harbor, upon hearing of the mis-timing of the communique breaking diplomatic relations with the United States earlier that day, it is reputed that Yamamoto said, "I fear all we have done today is to awaken a great, sleeping giant." There is no printed evidence to support this quote.

http://books.google.com/books?id=c4UoX6 ... &q&f=false

[Mkuki]

It was hilariously fabricated. The League of Nations even recognised it as rubbish at the time, which caused the Japanese to storm out.

I do wish Europe and the USA cared enough about China at the time to deter Japan with something more than token threats, might have stopped Japan from reaching the point it did and invading the rest of Asia.

It's hard to care when there is a Great Depression going on. Couple that with the strong pacifist, or at least anti-war, movements in the US and Western democracies and you get a situation where nations like Germany, Italy, and Japan go about invading, conquering and/or annexing sovereign nations.

[United States of Peace]

I do wish Europe and the USA cared enough about China at the time to deter Japan with something more than token threats, might have stopped Japan from reaching the point it did and invading the rest of Asia.

They didn't have much interest in protecting China. America, Britain and the Dutch all struck under-the-table agreements with Japan about recognising and respecting their various colonial interests.

It was only when Japan was poised to become more than a regional power that they began taking notice.

And even then, they took little actions to deter Japan, the Europeans were getting concerned by Germany by then I suppose.

[Hungramy]

The first bomb is justified, the second was to scare the Russians.

[United States of Peace]

I do wish Europe and the USA cared enough about China at the time to deter Japan with something more than token threats, might have stopped Japan from reaching the point it did and invading the rest of Asia.

It's hard to care when there is a Great Depression going on. Couple that with the strong pacifist, or at least anti-war, movements in the US and Western democracies and you get a situation where nations like Germany, Italy, and Japan go about invading, conquering and/or annexing sovereign nations.

While I don't support colonialism, if the Imperial powers kept their view of the importance of China, perhaps Japan would have been detered. Alas.

[New England and The Maritimes]

The first bomb is justified, the second was to scare the Russians.

-____- ur getting history

[Mkuki]

It's hard to care when there is a Great Depression going on. Couple that with the strong pacifist, or at least anti-war, movements in the US and Western democracies and you get a situation where nations like Germany, Italy, and Japan go about invading, conquering and/or annexing sovereign nations.

While I don't support colonialism, if the Imperial powers kept their view of the importance of China, perhaps Japan would have been detered. Alas.

I doubt it. The western democracies weren't prepared, materially or mentally, for a war against anyone. Let alone Japan. Let's not forget that World War I had ended only 15 years before 1933.

[Mkuki]

They didn't have much interest in protecting China. America, Britain and the Dutch all struck under-the-table agreements with Japan about recognising and respecting their various colonial interests.

It was only when Japan was poised to become more than a regional power that they began taking notice.

And even then, they took little actions to deter Japan, the Europeans were getting concerned by Germany by then I suppose.

Most people are going to protect their families before their business interests.

[The Huskar Social Union]

While I don't support colonialism, if the Imperial powers kept their view of the importance of China, perhaps Japan would have been detered. Alas.

I doubt it. The western democracies weren't prepared, materially or mentally, for a war against anyone. Let alone Japan. Let's not forget that World War I had ended only 15 years before 1933.

France and Czechoslovakia were ready for Germany at least, France warned the west that Germany wouldn't stop its build up of armaments and troop numbers and that something would happen, but they could not act alone, same with the Czechs, they had a well equipped and mobilized army but they would not win on their own, had the west supported them in 1938, they could have done some serious damage to the German military while the west attacked when they had mustered their strength.But for Japan and asia, not really.

[United States of Peace]

I doubt it. The western democracies weren't prepared, materially or mentally, for a war against anyone. Let alone Japan. Let's not forget that World War I had ended only 15 years before 1933.

France and Czechoslovakia were ready for Germany at least, France warned the west that Germany wouldn't stop its build up of armaments and troop numbers and that something would happen, but they could not act alone, same with the Czechs, they had a well equipped and mobilized army but they would not win on their own, had the west supported them in 1938, they could have done some serious damage to the German military while the west attacked when they had mustered their strength.But for Japan and asia, not really.

Now, I think despite the view of war at the time, if the European powers and perhaps America had tried to stop Japan in 1933, or 1937 even, perhaps the situation could have been a diplomatic settlement, or a quicker war than 1941. When Japan did finally attack the Western Allies and the USA, the Dutch couldn't well do anything, the French just lost in Europe, the British completely busy in the Med and Greece and the Channel. If a war had occurred in the Pacific, as unlikely as it would be, perhaps a stronger response would have finished it quick. At the very least, there wouldn't be a European War to draw forces from potential deployment East.

[Stattr]

Not footage, they are called historical records.

At the end of the attack upon Pearl Harbor, upon hearing of the mis-timing of the communique breaking diplomatic relations with the United States earlier that day, it is reputed that Yamamoto said, "I fear all we have done today is to awaken a great, sleeping giant." There is no printed evidence to support this quote.

http://books.google.com/books?id=c4UoX6 ... &q&f=false

hm...

[Inky Noodles]

As I recall, didn't Japan have a nuclear program of it's own?

[Jassysworth 1]

Yes, it was a war crime. Just like the bombing of Guernica, Coventry, Rotterdam, London, Rome, Milan, Köln, Berlin, Hamburg, Dresden, Tokyo, etc etc etc.
Indiscriminate use of military force on mixed targets without a reasonable attempt at sparing civilian lives - when not direct, deliberate attacks on the civilian population.

So basically... America committed a justified war crime.

No. Crimes aren't justifiable.
Understandable within the context of that war, maybe.

Crimes can be justifiable.

The USA was founded in a criminal revolution against the British Empire.

[Jassysworth 1]

So basically... America committed a justified war crime. Japan would have done nothing less if the tables were turned on American cities...

And yet Americans don't seem to find the tables being turned to be justified.

Note that I'm not saying it was unjustified, I don't really know about the ethics of the whole thing (although I think dropping 2 bombs was excessive) and I find the question to be fairly pointless, what's done is done and there's no chance of anyone facing further punishment anyway. What I don't like is this hypocrisy - I've only ever once seen someone reply "yes" to the question I pose above. And yet it's the same justification - lives would have been saved. But in this case, americans would be the victim of the bombing, therefore it seems morally unacceptable to many of them. It's hypocrisy.

The answer is simple. Morality is subjective.

Dropping the bomb on Japan is morally justified for the USA because it saves US lives... it's not morally justified for the Japanese because it killed their people.

Dropping an A Bomb on the US by the Japanese if it would save japanese lives would be morally justified for the Japanese but not for the US.

AND...

There is no contention that dropping a nuclear weapon that explodes on any populated city IS a war crime if it is done in the name of a sovereign state because this COMPLETELY fits the definition of ''war crime'' as provided by international law (indiscriminate targeting of civilians on a mass scale and using unusually cruel means for example).

[Terio]

The atomic bombing were the absolute right thing to do. I will always stand by this.
Firstly, the bombing saved civilian and military lives. An estimated 1 million American and many more Japanese troops would of been killed of Japan was invaded. This does not include civilian casualties.
Secondly, It prevented the Soviet Union from gaining any influence in Japan. If the Soviets invaded Japan too (which was a possibility, and they did actually invade the Kuril Islands), it could of caused much more Cold War tension and divided Japan similar to Germany.
While it CAN be debatable that the civilian targets were not the best option and that the second bomb wasn't required, It was the right thing in general to do. 200,000 civilians dead, even by an atom bomb, is better than 2,000,000 civilian dead from massacres and air raids.

[Mavorpen]

The atomic bombing were the absolute right thing to do. I will always stand by this.
Firstly, the bombing saved civilian and military lives. An estimated 1 million American and many more Japanese troops would of been killed of Japan was invaded. This does not include civilian casualties.
Secondly, It prevented the Soviet Union from gaining any influence in Japan. If the Soviets invaded Japan too (which was a possibility, and they did actually invade the Kuril Islands), it could of caused much more Cold War tension and divided Japan similar to Germany.
While it CAN be debatable that the civilian targets were not the best option and that the second bomb wasn't required, It was the right thing in general to do. 200,000 civilians dead, even by an atom bomb, is better than 2,000,000 civilian dead from massacres and air raids.

Aaand thanks for showing us you really don't know what you're talking about. The Soviets DID invade Japan.

[Bone Fort]

Aaand thanks for showing us you really don't know what you're talking about. The Soviets DID invade Japan.

Source?