Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Crimes or Reasonable Use of Force?

[United States of Peace]

Except your money and health are coming from another person who didn't consent to giving it to you. Japan invaded almost every portion of SE and Eastern Asia. They were embargoed and sanctioned BECAUSE they did so. This wasn't a random, "Hey, fuck you Japan." It was "Hey, stop that shit."

No. Japan was given French Indochina by the Vichy Government. Japan invaded much of SE Asia because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan. Which was, itself, a protest to Japan's invasion of China.

It was oil and rubber.

They could of got on without it.

And also stopped fucking conquesting.

You try and successfully run an industrial, 1940s economy without oil and rubber. Especially when conducting a war.

To be clear, I'm just saying that FDR did provoke the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Burma and Indonesia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_o ... _Indochina

And what provoked FDR to provoke the Japanese? The Invasion of China and the seizing of French Indochina.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Oh yes, three days is so patient.

Three days is plenty of time for someone to get on an open radio channel and go "Uhhhh... W-we give up now?"

Plenty of time for the Emporeror to try to make contact with Truman. Plenty of time to make SOME form of contact saying 'FOR THE LOVE OF HIROHITO DON'T FUCKING BOMB US WE QUIT!'

High command did not give a fuck, and the military was in control from a decade before the war, clearly evidenced by the associated coup attempts and officer rebellions and the way all of Japan's wars started, as independent actions with no order from the civilian government aimed at territorial conquest.

[Sdaeriji]

Which wasn't the only option. We just wanted them to. IE. The only options were not "invade" or "nuke", there were others. Make peace in the normal way, for example.

That was tried a few times.

"So, Japan, we just kicked your ass at [battle]. Wanna surrender yet?"

"YOU-A WRANT PREACE? FUK U, HERR BOM!"

That went one for a while. Japan never waved the white flag or anything, despite the fact that America would have accepted a surrender at pretty much any time.

Wow. That was unnecessarily racist.

[Stattr]

I say that it was not necessary.

Do you guys even know the real reason as to why they bombed pearl harbor?

[Hikari Hachi]

America went on to embargo and sanction Japan, because Japan wasn't keen on trading with America, and all of our trading partners in Asia (China), were becoming apart of the empire of Japan. So we went on to poke and poke Japan, until they attacked us, then pointed our finger at them like every war we have ever been in.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

No. Japan was given French Indochina by the Vichy Government. Japan invaded much of SE Asia because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan. Which was, itself, a protest to Japan's invasion of China.


You try and successfully run an industrial, 1940s economy without oil and rubber. Especially when conducting a war.

To be clear, I'm just saying that FDR did provoke the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Burma and Indonesia.

If they hadn't been conducting the war then they wouldn't have had to run it without oil and rubber.

We can take that line of reasoning as far back as it needs to go.

If the Europeans hadn't constructed imperialism as the only viable route to being considered a modern, industralised power, then the Japanese wouldn't have been pushed toward empire building.

And so on. It's all irrelevant, though.

Because considering the embargo in the plainest context, it was a provocation. Not one without justification, but a provocation nonetheless.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Japan's naval forces were quite adequate, and a blockade would have been difficult to affect without significant loss of life.

No they weren't. The IJN was wrecked after the Battle of Leyte Gulf in 1944. There would have been a major risk from kamikaze planes, but to say that the IJN posed a real threat to any blockade of Japan is ridiculous.

Which is why casualty projections for Operation Downfall were so low.

Wait....no they weren't.

[Sdaeriji]

I say that it was not necessary.

Do you guys even know the real reason as to why they bombed pearl harbor?

I know, but I bet you're going to offer up some absurdly one-sided explanation, and I'd like a good chuckle, so let's hear what you have to say.

[The United Colonies of Earth]

Personally, I feel that the bomb drops were war crimes committed to test the deadliness of actinide bombs, in addition to the many other justifications for Hiroshima and Nagasaki discussed above.

[The Emerald Dawn]

America went on to embargo and sanction Japan, because Japan wasn't keen on trading with America, and all of our trading partners in Asia (China), were becoming apart of the empire of Japan. So we went on to poke and poke Japan, until they attacked us, then pointed our finger at them like every war we have ever been in.

You heard it here first folks.

WWII's Eastern Theater? All America's fault.

[Alowwvia]

That was tried a few times.

"So, Japan, we just kicked your ass at [battle]. Wanna surrender yet?"

"YOU-A WRANT PREACE? FUK U, HERR BOM!"

That went one for a while. Japan never waved the white flag or anything, despite the fact that America would have accepted a surrender at pretty much any time.

No, that's bullshit. More like "we just beat you in battle, want to accept these shitty terms where you suck us off? No? Fuck you then"

The terms weren't that shitty. They boiled down to 'Stop dicking the rest of Asia, Japan.' Japan seemed to do quite well when they finally let the Americans help them after the war, didn't they? They're thriving now.

Three days is plenty of time for someone to get on an open radio channel and go "Uhhhh... W-we give up now?"

Plenty of time for the Emporeror to try to make contact with Truman. Plenty of time to make SOME form of contact saying 'FOR THE LOVE OF HIROHITO DON'T FUCKING BOMB US WE QUIT!'

High command did not give a fuck, and the military was in control from a decade before the war, clearly evidenced by the associated coup attempts and officer rebellions and the way all of Japan's wars started, as independent actions with no order from the civilian government aimed at territorial conquest.

Well then, it's a good thing then that the bombs were there to let the people who DID give a fuck wrestle control then.

[Alowwvia]

That was tried a few times.

"So, Japan, we just kicked your ass at [battle]. Wanna surrender yet?"

"YOU-A WRANT PREACE? FUK U, HERR BOM!"

That went one for a while. Japan never waved the white flag or anything, despite the fact that America would have accepted a surrender at pretty much any time.

Wow. That was unnecessarily racist.

I suppose the ending scene of A Christmas Story was racist too?

[United States of Peace]

No they weren't. The IJN was wrecked after the Battle of Leyte Gulf in 1944. There would have been a major risk from kamikaze planes, but to say that the IJN posed a real threat to any blockade of Japan is ridiculous.

Which is why casualty projections for Operation Downfall were so low.

Wait....no they weren't.

Well...Japanese naval forces were wiped out, but considering that Operation Downfall is a plan for the land invasion of Japan, the high loss of life comes from that.

[Wisconsin9]

If they hadn't been conducting the war then they wouldn't have had to run it without oil and rubber.

We can take that line of reasoning as far back as it needs to go.

If the Europeans hadn't constructed imperialism as the only viable route to being considered a modern, industralised power, then the Japanese wouldn't have been pushed toward empire building.

And so on. It's all irrelevant, though.

Because considering the embargo in the plainest context, it was a provocation. Not one without justification, but a provocation nonetheless.

They spent centuries in isolation and no outside power forced them to start conquering. They made a decision, the decision had consequences.

Now if you'll excuse me a while, I have homework to do.

[Hikari Hachi]

America went on to embargo and sanction Japan, because Japan wasn't keen on trading with America, and all of our trading partners in Asia (China), were becoming apart of the empire of Japan. So we went on to poke and poke Japan, until they attacked us, then pointed our finger at them like every war we have ever been in.

You heard it here first folks.

WWII's Eastern Theater? All America's fault.

Yes we sent arms on passenger ships to support Great Britain, then Germany blows up an American Passenger ship, and we point are finger to get into the war.

[Stattr]

I say that it was not necessary.

Do you guys even know the real reason as to why they bombed pearl harbor?

I know, but I bet you're going to offer up some absurdly one-sided explanation, and I'd like a good chuckle, so let's hear what you have to say.

Japan first of all sent a letter saying something and if we didn't comply or what ever then they would bomb pearl harbor. Unfortunantly that letter never arrived and since japan never got a responce they automatically assumed that we did not want to comply and they bombed pearl harbor trying to take out our aircraft carriers. Hence forth the reason we bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Before that though (I hate my memory.) someone in japan said to the emperor or leader "I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant..."

[Mavorpen]

They never officially surrendered.

Seems like you're arguing poorly based on semantics.

Then why are you claiming that the Soviet invasion caused them to surrender? More like the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Again, no. The Japanese were more afraid of the Soviets than the bombs.

[New England and The Maritimes]

No, that's bullshit. More like "we just beat you in battle, want to accept these shitty terms where you suck us off? No? Fuck you then"

The terms weren't that shitty. They boiled down to 'Stop dicking the rest of Asia, Japan.' Japan seemed to do quite well when they finally let the Americans help them after the war, didn't they? They're thriving now.

High command did not give a fuck, and the military was in control from a decade before the war, clearly evidenced by the associated coup attempts and officer rebellions and the way all of Japan's wars started, as independent actions with no order from the civilian government aimed at territorial conquest.

Well then, it's a good thing then that the bombs were there to let the people who DID give a fuck wrestle control then.

Yep. The destruction of the japanese state was a good thing, but don't pretend that its part in that effort makes the US or Soviet states somehow better for it. States did what states do best, and the result was the loss of one of them.

[Alowwvia]

You heard it here first folks.

WWII's Eastern Theater? All America's fault.

Yes we sent arms on passenger ships to support Great Britain, then Germany blows up an American Passenger ship, and we point are finger to get into the war.

And Germany still had no right to attack a neutral vessel, they did it to be assholes. What's your point.

[Hikari Hachi]

Yes we sent arms on passenger ships to support Great Britain, then Germany blows up an American Passenger ship, and we point are finger to get into the war.

And Germany still had no right to attack a neutral vessel, they did it to be assholes. What's your point.

smuggling arms to help one side in a war.... definitely neutral

[Mavorpen]

Oh yes, three days is so patient.

Three days is plenty of time for someone to get on an open radio channel and go "Uhhhh... W-we give up now?"

Plenty of time for the Emporeror to try to make contact with Truman. Plenty of time to make SOME form of contact saying 'FOR THE LOVE OF HIROHITO DON'T FUCKING BOMB US WE QUIT!'

And yet it took even longer for them to give up after the second bomb. Why didn't we drop a third?

[Patheon Global Security]

Then why are you claiming that the Soviet invasion caused them to surrender? More like the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

Again, no. The Japanese were more afraid of the Soviets than the bombs.

Then how come the Japs surrendered after the bombs?

[United States of Peace]

If they hadn't been conducting the war then they wouldn't have had to run it without oil and rubber.

We can take that line of reasoning as far back as it needs to go.

If the Europeans hadn't constructed imperialism as the only viable route to being considered a modern, industralised power, then the Japanese wouldn't have been pushed toward empire building.

And so on. It's all irrelevant, though.

Because considering the embargo in the plainest context, it was a provocation. Not one without justification, but a provocation nonetheless.

I don't mean to be a little annoying, but when we look at the embargo placed on Japan, we should take a look at the actions that caused the embargo placed in the first place, which were Japan provoking the embargo with their very long invasion of China and the seizure of French Indochina.

So, Japan made their own provocations, of course not entirely without justifications as well.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

We can take that line of reasoning as far back as it needs to go.

If the Europeans hadn't constructed imperialism as the only viable route to being considered a modern, industralised power, then the Japanese wouldn't have been pushed toward empire building.

And so on. It's all irrelevant, though.

Because considering the embargo in the plainest context, it was a provocation. Not one without justification, but a provocation nonetheless.

They spent centuries in isolation and no outside power forced them to start conquering.

Very debatable. It was pressure from outside forces, and the tragic example of foreign influence in China, which influenced the Japanese decision to modernise and then militarise.

To protect themselves from conquest, in short.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Yes we sent arms on passenger ships to support Great Britain, then Germany blows up an American Passenger ship, and we point are finger to get into the war.

And Germany still had no right to attack a neutral vessel, they did it to be assholes. What's your point.

Fucking hell learn your history all of you. The Lusitania was not an american vessel, first off, it was a british passenger liner with 128 americans on board. Secondly, when a war is ongoing and one combatant has declared open season on the north sea well beforehand, you can't expect any different result. It was not causa bellorum in any sense of the term, and as with the second world war, it was the US State looking for any "in" to become involved in the conflict.