Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Crimes or Reasonable Use of Force?

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Precisely what I'm wondering.

Well, the invasion of China and the seizure of French Indochina could be considered a provocation by Japan towards the rest of the European colonial nations in Asia.

It probably was.

[Alowwvia]

Unconditional surrender which the Japanese never would accept.

Which wasn't the only option. We just wanted them to. IE. The only options were not "invade" or "nuke", there were others. Make peace in the normal way, for example.

That was tried a few times.

"So, Japan, we just kicked your ass at [battle]. Wanna surrender yet?"

"YOU-A WRANT PREACE? FUK U, HERR BOM!"

That went one for a while. Japan never waved the white flag or anything, despite the fact that America would have accepted a surrender at pretty much any time.

[Kummen]

I would say both bombs were perfectly justifiable in their use, it ended the war before more lives could be lost. If we had gone through with an invasion of Japan, both the Americans and the Japanese would have lost countless more soldiers, to say nothing of the innumerable civilian casualties that Japan would have incurred. If anything, those bombs saved more lives than any conventional attack.

[Risottia]

Which wasn't the only option. We just wanted them to. IE. The only options were not "invade" or "nuke", there were others. Make peace in the normal way, for example.

By what? Throwing flowers?

What about a blockade?

[Mavorpen]

Seriously...?

More like how that changed Japan's view on surrendering.

In other words, it caused them to surrender. Glad you're admitting to being wrong.

[United States of Peace]

The fact that the embargo threatened to shut down the entire Japanese economy is much more than just denying access to a third person's wallet. It's more akin to losing the vast majority of your money and health.

Except your money and health are coming from another person who didn't consent to giving it to you. Japan invaded almost every portion of SE and Eastern Asia. They were embargoed and sanctioned BECAUSE they did so. This wasn't a random, "Hey, fuck you Japan." It was "Hey, stop that shit."

Embargo came first, then Japan invaded almost every portion of SE Asia. East Asia came before Embargo.

[The Emerald Dawn]

By what? Throwing flowers?

What about a blockade?

Japan's naval forces were quite adequate, and a blockade would have been difficult to affect without significant loss of life.

[Patheon Global Security]

By what? Throwing flowers?

What about a blockade?

Like in Serbia? Or North Korea? Didn't change alot did it?

[Alowwvia]

It was oil and rubber.

They could of got on without it.

And also stopped fucking conquesting.

No, they couldn't have. The government was set up top to bottom to be stocked with people for whom "No more imperialism" was never on the table. There was no point at which the government could have changed direction in its policies, because it was not democratic in any way, shape or form, and the ruling class in Japanese society was conditioned and reinforced into a hyperaggressive, actively defensive, belligerent attitude toward any and every perceived threat or opportunity.

Then it's probably pretty good that their shit got slapped then, huh?

What, you just want to NOT embargo them? "Sure, Japan, go ahead and conquer Chine, we dgaf."

[Wisconsin9]

By what? Throwing flowers?

What about a blockade?

If I recall correctly, we tried that.

[New England and The Maritimes]

More like how that changed Japan's view on surrendering.

In other words, it caused them to surrender. Glad you're admitting to being wrong.

It more allowed people who were intent on a surrender to quickly take control.

[New England and The Maritimes]

No, they couldn't have. The government was set up top to bottom to be stocked with people for whom "No more imperialism" was never on the table. There was no point at which the government could have changed direction in its policies, because it was not democratic in any way, shape or form, and the ruling class in Japanese society was conditioned and reinforced into a hyperaggressive, actively defensive, belligerent attitude toward any and every perceived threat or opportunity.

Then it's probably pretty good that their shit got slapped then, huh?

What, you just want to NOT embargo them? "Sure, Japan, go ahead and conquer Chine, we dgaf."

Never said that, but you're presenting it as a conscious choice, even though it clearly wasn't. The war was inevitable thanks to the developments of the 19th century.

[Patheon Global Security]

More like how that changed Japan's view on surrendering.

In other words, it caused them to surrender. Glad you're admitting to being wrong.

They never surrendered as a matter of a fact,

Seems like you are keen on seeing other fail.

[Mavorpen]

Which wasn't the only option. We just wanted them to. IE. The only options were not "invade" or "nuke", there were others. Make peace in the normal way, for example.

That was tried a few times.

"So, Japan, we just kicked your ass at [battle]. Wanna surrender yet?"

"YOU-A WRANT PREACE? FUK U, HERR BOM!"

That went one for a while. Japan never waved the white flag or anything, despite the fact that America would have accepted a surrender at pretty much any time.

Oh yes, three days is so patient.

[Alowwvia]

In other words, it caused them to surrender. Glad you're admitting to being wrong.

It more allowed people who were intent on a surrender to quickly take control.

I'm sure at least a couple people intent of fighting thought 'Sweet merciful fuck, they can blow up entire cities now.' and decided that surrender was a pretty good idea.

[Mkuki]

The fact that the embargo threatened to shut down the entire Japanese economy is much more than just denying access to a third person's wallet. It's more akin to losing the vast majority of your money and health.

Except your money and health are coming from another person who didn't consent to giving it to you. Japan invaded almost every portion of SE and Eastern Asia. They were embargoed and sanctioned BECAUSE they did so. This wasn't a random, "Hey, fuck you Japan." It was "Hey, stop that shit."

No. Japan was given French Indochina by the Vichy Government. Japan invaded much of SE Asia because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan. Which was, itself, a protest to Japan's invasion of China.

The fact that the embargo threatened to shut down the entire Japanese economy is much more than just denying access to a third person's wallet. It's more akin to losing the vast majority of your money and health.

It was oil and rubber.

They could of got on without it.

And also stopped fucking conquesting.

You try and successfully run an industrial, 1940s economy without oil and rubber. Especially when conducting a war.

To be clear, I'm just saying that FDR did provoke the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Burma and Indonesia.

[Mavorpen]

In other words, it caused them to surrender. Glad you're admitting to being wrong.

They never surrendered as a matter of a fact,

Seems like you are keen on seeing other fail.

They never officially surrendered.

Seems like you're arguing poorly based on semantics.

[Person012345]

No, they weren't. Do some research. They were already negotiating peace with the soviets (even if the soviets were going to stab them in the back), they wanted to end the war, they simply couldn't fight it any more. But we didn't want them to surrender to the soviets, we wanted them to surrender to us, on our shitty ass terms. So we slaughtered a bunch of innocent civilians. They weren't in a fucking "trance".

Our shitty as terms??? I think that our terms kept them from turning into eastern Germany, and our terms are the reason they are an industrious self sufficient nation today.

[citation needed]

If you mean because the soviets would have invaded, not if we'd given them good terms that they actually wanted to accept because they were reasonable (they would still have been surrendering and they would still have been under our protection), instead of shitting on a piece of paper and then slaughtering hundreds of thousands when they didn't accept it.

Hyperbole added for dramatic effect.

[Wisconsin9]

Except your money and health are coming from another person who didn't consent to giving it to you. Japan invaded almost every portion of SE and Eastern Asia. They were embargoed and sanctioned BECAUSE they did so. This wasn't a random, "Hey, fuck you Japan." It was "Hey, stop that shit."

No. Japan was given French Indochina by the Vichy Government. Japan invaded much of SE Asia because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan. Which was, itself, a protest to Japan's invasion of China.

It was oil and rubber.

They could of got on without it.

And also stopped fucking conquesting.

You try and successfully run an industrial, 1940s economy without oil and rubber. Especially when conducting a war.

To be clear, I'm just saying that FDR did provoke the Japanese to attack Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Burma and Indonesia.

If they hadn't been conducting the war then they wouldn't have had to run it without oil and rubber.

[United States of Peace]

Well, the invasion of China and the seizure of French Indochina could be considered a provocation by Japan towards the rest of the European colonial nations in Asia.

It probably was.

Yup, particularly considering Japan taking Indochina from the French. Considering the fragile position of the Dutch, and hard-pressed British, it would have been natural i think for the embargo to occur, since the embargoing nations most likely hoped to defer future seizures of their Empires. Of course, they proably underestimated Japan as well.

[New England and The Maritimes]

It more allowed people who were intent on a surrender to quickly take control.

I'm sure at least a couple people intent of fighting thought 'Sweet merciful fuck, they can blow up entire cities now.' and decided that surrender was a pretty good idea.

Maybe a few did. As a whole, the Japanese high command already showed that it did not care about civilian control, civilian well being, civilian intentions, or civilian or military lives. The bombing of tokyo killed more people and destroyed more property than hiroshima and nagasaki combined, and did nothing to phase them. The bombs were a shock that created a bit of pandemonium in military command while everyone was attempting to figure out what happened.

[Patheon Global Security]

They never surrendered as a matter of a fact,

Seems like you are keen on seeing other fail.

They never officially surrendered.

Seems like you're arguing poorly based on semantics.

Then why are you claiming that the Soviet invasion caused them to surrender? More like the bombs on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

[Alowwvia]

That was tried a few times.

"So, Japan, we just kicked your ass at [battle]. Wanna surrender yet?"

"YOU-A WRANT PREACE? FUK U, HERR BOM!"

That went one for a while. Japan never waved the white flag or anything, despite the fact that America would have accepted a surrender at pretty much any time.

Oh yes, three days is so patient.

Three days is plenty of time for someone to get on an open radio channel and go "Uhhhh... W-we give up now?"

Plenty of time for the Emporeror to try to make contact with Truman. Plenty of time to make SOME form of contact saying 'FOR THE LOVE OF HIROHITO DON'T FUCKING BOMB US WE QUIT!'

[Mkuki]

What about a blockade?

Japan's naval forces were quite adequate, and a blockade would have been difficult to affect without significant loss of life.

No they weren't. The IJN was wrecked after the Battle of Leyte Gulf in 1944. There would have been a major risk from kamikaze planes, but to say that the IJN posed a real threat to any blockade of Japan is ridiculous.

[Person012345]

Which wasn't the only option. We just wanted them to. IE. The only options were not "invade" or "nuke", there were others. Make peace in the normal way, for example.

That was tried a few times.

"So, Japan, we just kicked your ass at [battle]. Wanna surrender yet?"

"YOU-A WRANT PREACE? FUK U, HERR BOM!"

That went one for a while. Japan never waved the white flag or anything, despite the fact that America would have accepted a surrender at pretty much any time.

No, that's bullshit. More like "we just beat you in battle, want to accept these shitty terms where you suck us off? No? Fuck you then"