Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Crimes or Reasonable Use of Force?

[Wisconsin9]

And before you say "But the civilians didn't do anything!" please let me remind you that they were prepared and very willing to die in the name of the Empire.

Turns out the civilians didn't commit a mass-suicide when the Empire surrendered.
Also, turns out they didn't inflict massive casualties on the Allies on Okinawa.

So?

But between forty and a hundred fifty thousand died anyways. In 1945, Japan had nearly 72 million citizens. Roughly a tenth to a quarter of the Japanese population at Okinawa died; if we assume similar rates in Operation Overlord, that's 7 to 18 million.

I think you're forgetting that Japan started the war. When you start a war, you accept that you are going to suffer casualties, including civilian ones. If you're not willing to accept that, then don't start the fucking war.

The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor only because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan.

In order to prevent further Japanese conquest.

What do you do?

kill them and then lament the fact i had to do it every day, bear the knowledge with shame, shed tears, build memorials, humbly apologise to their families and when presented with the fact bow my head in shame and not even attempt to defend such a disgusting action because ''i-i-it was the lesser of two evils''

here's a better analogy, you're outside a room filled with cripples, some of whom hate you, you have the potential to kill lots of them or lock the room and walk away, what do you do

I lock the room and walk away.

Now, if the cripples in particular have killed dozens or even hundreds of people then stolen everything they own? That's when I begin the killing.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Yes. It did.

Japan also had the option not to do that.

Indeed.

What's your point?

[Risottia]

...the soviets were going to stab them in the back...

Actually, the Soviets weren't allied with Japan in 1945... so, their attack - required, by the way, by the Allies at the Potsdam conference - wasn't exactly backstab... expecially if you remember the Anti-Comintern stuff.

[Tel]

Reasonable use of force in my opinion.

[Alowwvia]

Consider it from this perspective:

Dropping the bombs ended the Second World War.

Think about it for a moment.

Truman, and the US Military by proxy, had the capacity to put an end to World War 2.

World. War. 2.

The bloodiest conflict in the history of the entire human species, seven-year war that has literally rewritten maps by the destruction and assimilation of nations. Humans became a warrior race, by the simple fact that entire civilizations were completely geared for war.

Do you realize how tantalizing and important it was to end World War fucking 2!? World War 2 was bloodiest series of conflicts ever, so the ability to drop a bomb that will cease almost all hostilities world wide was a no-brainer decision.

Everything now is just hindsight.

Dropping the bombs was not a choice between dropping bombs and continuing conflict. The plan all along was dropping the bombs and proceeding with a land invasion, and it was a happy accident that this didn't occur.

IF the Japanese didn't surrender. Thankfully, they saw reason, and decided that sacrificing themselves to slaughter Americans wasn't a solid plan.

[Patheon Global Security]

What did you suspect then? Throwing flowers and negotiating like our army did in Srebenica? The Japs were in a trance back then, like the Serbs. There is no sanity in such times.

No, they weren't. Do some research. They were already negotiating peace with the soviets (even if the soviets were going to stab them in the back), they wanted to end the war, they simply couldn't fight it any more. But we didn't want them to surrender to the soviets, we wanted them to surrender to us, on our shitty ass terms. So we slaughtered a bunch of innocent civilians. They weren't in a fucking "trance".

Unconditional surrender which the Japanese never would accept.

[Mkuki]

The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor only because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan.

That's shifting the blame onto the US for using economic and peaceful means to stop a war. You don't get to shoot someone in the face for denying you access to a third person's wallet.

The fact that the embargo threatened to shut down the entire Japanese economy is much more than just denying access to a third person's wallet. It's more akin to losing the vast majority of your money and health.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Dropping the bombs was not a choice between dropping bombs and continuing conflict. The plan all along was dropping the bombs and proceeding with a land invasion, and it was a happy accident that this didn't occur.

IF the Japanese didn't surrender. Thankfully, they saw reason, and decided that sacrificing themselves to slaughter Americans wasn't a solid plan.

No opinions changed. In the chaos the peace faction managed to break the hardline grip on the state, combined with the looming threat of a general revolt which had been growing for years. States are tricky things, that really don't change radically.

[Patheon Global Security]

Japan also had the option not to do that.

Indeed.

What's your point?

Hence the oil embargo.

[Mavorpen]

No, they weren't. Do some research. They were already negotiating peace with the soviets (even if the soviets were going to stab them in the back), they wanted to end the war, they simply couldn't fight it any more. But we didn't want them to surrender to the soviets, we wanted them to surrender to us, on our shitty ass terms. So we slaughtered a bunch of innocent civilians. They weren't in a fucking "trance".

Unconditional surrender which the Japanese never would accept.

Unless the Soviets invaded them.

Oh wait, that did happen.

[Alowwvia]

That's shifting the blame onto the US for using economic and peaceful means to stop a war. You don't get to shoot someone in the face for denying you access to a third person's wallet.

The fact that the embargo threatened to shut down the entire Japanese economy is much more than just denying access to a third person's wallet. It's more akin to losing the vast majority of your money and health.

It was oil and rubber.

They could of got on without it.

And also stopped fucking conquesting.

[United States of Peace]

And?

Precisely what I'm wondering.

Well, the invasion of China and the seizure of French Indochina could be considered a provocation by Japan towards the rest of the European colonial nations in Asia.

[The Emerald Dawn]

That's shifting the blame onto the US for using economic and peaceful means to stop a war. You don't get to shoot someone in the face for denying you access to a third person's wallet.

The fact that the embargo threatened to shut down the entire Japanese economy is much more than just denying access to a third person's wallet. It's more akin to losing the vast majority of your money and health.

Except your money and health are coming from another person who didn't consent to giving it to you. Japan invaded almost every portion of SE and Eastern Asia. They were embargoed and sanctioned BECAUSE they did so. This wasn't a random, "Hey, fuck you Japan." It was "Hey, stop that shit."

[Patheon Global Security]

Unconditional surrender which the Japanese never would accept.

Unless the Soviets invaded them.

Oh wait, that did happen.

I would love some sauce on that.

[Mkuki]

The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor only because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan.

In order to prevent further Japanese conquest.

I am aware of that. Either way FDR's decision, in part, led to Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Dropping the bombs was not a choice between dropping bombs and continuing conflict. The plan all along was dropping the bombs and proceeding with a land invasion, and it was a happy accident that this didn't occur.

IF the Japanese didn't surrender. Thankfully, they saw reason, and decided that sacrificing themselves to slaughter Americans wasn't a solid plan.

Prior to the dropping of the bomb, the Japanese were looking for an excuse to exit the war that could be pinned on outside forces, rather than on the failings of the Japanese elite. The atomic bomb provided that excuse, conveniently, much sooner than would have Russian incursions into Manchuria.

The Japanese weren't as stubbornly committed to war as their pronouncements made out. "Saving face" was massively important in Japan, and still is.

[Person012345]

No, they weren't. Do some research. They were already negotiating peace with the soviets (even if the soviets were going to stab them in the back), they wanted to end the war, they simply couldn't fight it any more. But we didn't want them to surrender to the soviets, we wanted them to surrender to us, on our shitty ass terms. So we slaughtered a bunch of innocent civilians. They weren't in a fucking "trance".

Unconditional surrender which the Japanese never would accept.

Which wasn't the only option. We just wanted them to. IE. The only options were not "invade" or "nuke", there were others. Make peace in the normal way, for example.

[Wisconsin9]

In order to prevent further Japanese conquest.

I am aware of that. Either way FDR's decision, in part, led to Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor.

And Japan's decision to try and conquer Asia led to FDR's decision. They're still to blame.

[Mavorpen]

Unless the Soviets invaded them.

Oh wait, that did happen.

I would love some sauce on that.

Seriously...?

[Hikari Hachi]

What did you suspect then? Throwing flowers and negotiating like our army did in Srebenica? The Japs were in a trance back then, like the Serbs. There is no sanity in such times.

No, they weren't. Do some research. They were already negotiating peace with the soviets (even if the soviets were going to stab them in the back), they wanted to end the war, they simply couldn't fight it any more. But we didn't want them to surrender to the soviets, we wanted them to surrender to us, on our shitty ass terms. So we slaughtered a bunch of innocent civilians. They weren't in a fucking "trance".

Our shitty as terms??? I think that our terms kept them from turning into eastern Germany, and our terms are the reason they are an industrious self sufficient nation today.

[Patheon Global Security]

Unconditional surrender which the Japanese never would accept.

Which wasn't the only option. We just wanted them to. IE. The only options were not "invade" or "nuke", there were others. Make peace in the normal way, for example.

By what? Throwing flowers?

[New England and The Maritimes]

The fact that the embargo threatened to shut down the entire Japanese economy is much more than just denying access to a third person's wallet. It's more akin to losing the vast majority of your money and health.

It was oil and rubber.

They could of got on without it.

And also stopped fucking conquesting.

No, they couldn't have. The government was set up top to bottom to be stocked with people for whom "No more imperialism" was never on the table. There was no point at which the government could have changed direction in its policies, because it was not democratic in any way, shape or form, and the ruling class in Japanese society was conditioned and reinforced into a hyperaggressive, actively defensive, belligerent attitude toward any and every perceived threat or opportunity.

[United States of Peace]

The fact that the embargo threatened to shut down the entire Japanese economy is much more than just denying access to a third person's wallet. It's more akin to losing the vast majority of your money and health.

It was oil and rubber.

They could of got on without it.

And also stopped fucking conquesting.

Actually, this embargo would utterly paralyze Japan's Invasion of China, if I read correctly.

[Wisconsin9]

Unconditional surrender which the Japanese never would accept.

Which wasn't the only option. We just wanted them to. IE. The only options were not "invade" or "nuke", there were others. Make peace in the normal way, for example.

And leave them the potential to rearm and threaten us again. Yeah. Great plan.

[Patheon Global Security]

I would love some sauce on that.

Seriously...?

More like how that changed Japan's view on surrendering.