Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Crimes or Reasonable Use of Force?

[Person012345]

Yes, every single one wholeheartedly supported the war, and every single one wanted to die in defence of the emporer.

Oh wait, no, that's bullshit.

Eighty percent of the people in a room with you want to kill you. Your only two choices are to either allow them to do so or to kill them all because you don't know which ones are friendly. What do you do?

I die, assuming there is more than one innocent. If there is only one, it becomes a little more complicated, but I would personally probably choose not to kill them (that's merely a personal decision, and I assume you're talking about more than one innocent).

Also, that's not remotely related to the conversation. Right now, if we extend the analogy, you're advocating killing everyone in japan who supported the war, which is frankly insane. Actually, killing everyone in japan, simply because some/the majority agreed with the war.

[Hikari Hachi]

Thought I'd leave this here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOCYcgOnWUM

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Debatable.

If I remember my history correctly, the US embargoed their oil, cutting their supply by somewhere around 87%. That's a rather significant provocation, for the time.

Yep, and steel and iron ore. The Japanese government considered it a joint American-British-Chinese-Dutch encirclement, designed to teeter their economy toward collapse and undermine their emerging colonial empire.

It was quite the provocation, I would argue.

[United States of Peace]

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

You still dont get my post (either that or you are deliberately ignoring the point). Here, I will spell it out:
Anything but unconditional surrender would have given Japanese empire, chance to rise again which would be insult to every victim of Japanese atrocities and USA.

You got sources for that? Cause even if the USA decided to drop unconditional surrender, most likely, Japan would lose all her mainland Asian territories, including Taiwan, Manchuria, and Korea, all major sources of resources that would have been needed by a resurgent Japanese Empire.

[Person012345]

Are you even reading the conversation? At all. Go back a few. That is a false dichotomy. Go and read what was said, please.

*shrughs*

So I don't assume you supported the A-bomb solution? Such a shame, it was a lesser of two evils.

Are you an idiot? Do you know what a false dichotomy is?

[Mkuki]

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

I think you're forgetting that Japan started the war. When you start a war, you accept that you are going to suffer casualties, including civilian ones. If you're not willing to accept that, then don't start the fucking war.

The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor only because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan.

[Person012345]

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

You still dont get my post (either that or you are deliberately ignoring the point). Here, I will spell it out:
Anything but unconditional surrender would have given Japanese empire, chance to rise again which would be insult to every victim of Japanese atrocities and USA.

Oh right, because the fact that india didn't conquer the UK gave the british empire the chance to rise again. Right.

[Great Nepal]

Debatable.

If I remember my history correctly, the US embargoed their oil, cutting their supply by somewhere around 87%. That's a rather significant provocation, for the time.

US refused to sell Japan Oil, it doesn't give Japan casus belli over US. Otherwise, I would have right to go over and bomb the local pub who didn't sell me beer cos they were closing down.

[Risottia]

Are you an idiot?

Don't flame.
/notamod

[Patheon Global Security]

*shrughs*

So I don't assume you supported the A-bomb solution? Such a shame, it was a lesser of two evils.

Are you an idiot? Do you know what a false dichotomy is?

What did you suspect then? Throwing flowers and negotiating like our army did in Srebenica? The Japs were in a trance back then, like the Serbs. There is no sanity in such times.

[Oterro]

What do you do?

kill them and then lament the fact i had to do it every day, bear the knowledge with horror, shed tears, build memorials, humbly apologise to their families and when presented with the fact bow my head in shame and not even attempt to defend such a disgusting action because ''i-i-it was the lesser of two evils''

here's a better analogy, you're outside a room filled with cripples, some of whom hate you, you have the potential to kill lots of them or lock the room and walk away, what do you do

[The Joseon Dynasty]

If I remember my history correctly, the US embargoed their oil, cutting their supply by somewhere around 87%. That's a rather significant provocation, for the time.

US refused to sell Japan Oil, it doesn't give Japan casus belli over US. Otherwise, I would have right to go over and bomb the local pub who didn't sell me beer cos they were closing down.

He argued it was a provocation, not a justification.

[Person012345]

Are you an idiot?

Don't flame.
/notamod

Not a flame.

[The Emerald Dawn]

I think you're forgetting that Japan started the war. When you start a war, you accept that you are going to suffer casualties, including civilian ones. If you're not willing to accept that, then don't start the fucking war.

The Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor only because FDR cut off shipments of oil and rubber to Japan.

That's shifting the blame onto the US for using economic and peaceful means to stop a war. You don't get to shoot someone in the face for denying you access to a third person's wallet.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Trotskylvania has the best analysis on the subject. It was a natural conclusion of the growing might of the military-industrial complex in the US. I hold no pity for the Japanese state, but from any perspective it can't be said that this was a conscious choice. It was the result of bureaucratic inertia and stemmed from the way the US Government was set up and who was placed in charge of what.

[United States of Peace]

If I remember my history correctly, the US embargoed their oil, cutting their supply by somewhere around 87%. That's a rather significant provocation, for the time.

Yep, and steel and iron ore. The Japanese government considered it a joint American-British-Chinese-Dutch encirclement, designed to teeter their economy toward collapse and undermine their emerging colonial empire.

It was quite the provocation, I would argue.

Japan did invade China and seized French Indochina.

[The Mighty Warrior Horse]

*shrughs*

So I don't assume you supported the A-bomb solution? Such a shame, it was a lesser of two evils.

Are you an idiot? Do you know what a false dichotomy is?

Hey calm down, we don't need name calling.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Yep, and steel and iron ore. The Japanese government considered it a joint American-British-Chinese-Dutch encirclement, designed to teeter their economy toward collapse and undermine their emerging colonial empire.

It was quite the provocation, I would argue.

Japan did invade China and seized French Indochina.

Yes. It did.

[Risottia]

Don't flame.
/notamod

Not a flame.

I'm pretty sure it is. Let's say it's quite close at least, and NOT go further that way?

[Alowwvia]

Consider it from this perspective:

Dropping the bombs ended the Second World War.

Think about it for a moment.

Truman, and the US Military by proxy, had the capacity to put an end to World War 2.

World. War. 2.

The bloodiest conflict in the history of the entire human species, seven-year war that has literally rewritten maps by the destruction and assimilation of nations. Humans became a warrior race, by the simple fact that entire civilizations were completely geared for war.

Do you realize how tantalizing and important it was to end World War fucking 2!? World War 2 was bloodiest series of conflicts ever, so the ability to drop a bomb that will cease almost all hostilities world wide was a no-brainer decision.

Everything now is just hindsight.

[Person012345]

Are you an idiot? Do you know what a false dichotomy is?

What did you suspect then? Throwing flowers and negotiating like our army did in Srebenica? The Japs were in a trance back then, like the Serbs. There is no sanity in such times.

No, they weren't. Do some research. They were already negotiating peace with the soviets (even if the soviets were going to stab them in the back), they wanted to end the war, they simply couldn't fight it any more. But we didn't want them to surrender to the soviets, we wanted them to surrender to us, on our shitty ass terms. So we slaughtered a bunch of innocent civilians. They weren't in a fucking "trance".

[United States of Peace]

Japan did invade China and seized French Indochina.

Yes. It did.

And?

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Yes. It did.

And?

Precisely what I'm wondering.

[New England and The Maritimes]

Consider it from this perspective:

Dropping the bombs ended the Second World War.

Think about it for a moment.

Truman, and the US Military by proxy, had the capacity to put an end to World War 2.

World. War. 2.

The bloodiest conflict in the history of the entire human species, seven-year war that has literally rewritten maps by the destruction and assimilation of nations. Humans became a warrior race, by the simple fact that entire civilizations were completely geared for war.

Do you realize how tantalizing and important it was to end World War fucking 2!? World War 2 was bloodiest series of conflicts ever, so the ability to drop a bomb that will cease almost all hostilities world wide was a no-brainer decision.

Everything now is just hindsight.

Dropping the bombs was not a choice between dropping bombs and continuing conflict. The plan all along was dropping the bombs and proceeding with a land invasion, and it was a happy accident that this didn't occur.

[Patheon Global Security]

Japan did invade China and seized French Indochina.

Yes. It did.

Japan also had the option not to do that.