Hiroshima and Nagasaki, Crimes or Reasonable Use of Force?

[Person012345]

You're reading the thread yes?

Name those people.

Winsconsin 9 for a start (not sure I spelt that right).

[Wisconsin9]

Name those people.

Winsconsin 9 for a start (not sure I spelt that right).

If we had actually started the war then It'd be understandable.

[Great Nepal]

Allright, lest ignore 1.7 millions American because their life is less valuable than 246,000 Japanese. Even then, five million fatalities on Japanese side.
5,000,000 > 246,000.

I never said that Japanese lives were more valuable than American lives. You've mis-interpreted what I said.

Alright, so
6,700,000 > 246,000

Only acceptable terms was unconditional surrender. It was not acceptable for Japanese.

That is precisely the false dichotomy I was pointing out. The only other option is NOT unconditional surrender.

Anything but unconditional surrender was not acceptable and would be insult to victims of Japanese Empire.
Japanese Empire was responsible for atrocities that were condemned by Nazi Germany and launched unprovoked, undeclared attack against United States after embarking upon campaign to takeover Asia and Pacific.

[Person012345]

Winsconsin 9 for a start (not sure I spelt that right).

If we had actually started the war then It'd be understandable.

But we didn't, so it's fair to put you in that category?

[United States of Peace]

Have there ever been studies on the cost of Japanese lives if the US invaded Japan? I voted No, cause it saved American lives, but wouldn't a full-scale invasion be just as deadly for the Japanese as the Americans?

[Person012345]

Anything but unconditional surrender was not acceptable and would be insult to victims of Japanese Empire.
Japanese Empire was responsible for atrocities that were condemned by Nazi Germany and launched unprovoked, undeclared attack against United States after embarking upon campaign to takeover Asia and Pacific.

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

[Patheon Global Security]

Have there ever been studies on the cost of Japanese lives if the US invaded Japan? I voted No, cause it saved American lives, but wouldn't a full-scale invasion be just as deadly for the Japanese as the Americans?

It would be more deadly for both, hence.

Better thing, the Japs didn't start bombing Pearl Harbor.

[Risottia]

Okinawa disagrees.

Okay, so the Japanese were brainwashing their people to commit mass suicide because the GIs would rape the women, mutilate the children, murder the babies, and torture the men.

My point would be that even mass suicide of civilians =/= civilians fighting back and inflicting casualties on the invading Allied forces.

[Patheon Global Security]

Anything but unconditional surrender was not acceptable and would be insult to victims of Japanese Empire.
Japanese Empire was responsible for atrocities that were condemned by Nazi Germany and launched unprovoked, undeclared attack against United States after embarking upon campaign to takeover Asia and Pacific.

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

>implying those millions were only soldiers and no innocent civilian

Nope mate

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Anything but unconditional surrender was not acceptable and would be insult to victims of Japanese Empire.
Japanese Empire was responsible for atrocities that were condemned by Nazi Germany and launched unprovoked, undeclared attack against United States after embarking upon campaign to takeover Asia and Pacific.

Debatable.

[Wisconsin9]

Anything but unconditional surrender was not acceptable and would be insult to victims of Japanese Empire.
Japanese Empire was responsible for atrocities that were condemned by Nazi Germany and launched unprovoked, undeclared attack against United States after embarking upon campaign to takeover Asia and Pacific.

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

I think you're forgetting that Japan started the war. When you start a war, you accept that you are going to suffer casualties, including civilian ones. If you're not willing to accept that, then don't start the fucking war.

And before you say "But the civilians didn't do anything!" please let me remind you that they were prepared and very willing to die in the name of the Empire.

[The Emerald Dawn]

Anything but unconditional surrender was not acceptable and would be insult to victims of Japanese Empire.
Japanese Empire was responsible for atrocities that were condemned by Nazi Germany and launched unprovoked, undeclared attack against United States after embarking upon campaign to takeover Asia and Pacific.

Debatable.

If I remember my history correctly, the US embargoed their oil, cutting their supply by somewhere around 87%. That's a rather significant provocation, for the time.

[Person012345]

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

>implying those millions were only soldiers and no innocent civilian

Nope mate

uh, no I didn't. Plenty of innocent civilians would have been offended.

Let me make it clearer. Insulting billions of innocent civilians > killing hundreds of thousands of innocents.

[Patheon Global Security]

Debatable.

If I remember my history correctly, the US embargoed their oil, cutting their supply by somewhere around 87%. That's a rather significant provocation, for the time.

Not suprising if the Japs invaded China, French Indochina, Dutch East Indies etc.

[United States of Peace]

That is precisely the false dichotomy I was pointing out. The only other option is NOT unconditional surrender.

Anything but unconditional surrender was not acceptable and would be insult to victims of Japanese Empire.
Japanese Empire was responsible for atrocities that were condemned by Nazi Germany and launched unprovoked, undeclared attack against United States after embarking upon campaign to takeover Asia and Pacific.

Sources? More importantly, did Nazi Germany condemn Japan after or before the switch by Germany from China to Japan as a ally in Asia?

[Person012345]

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

I think you're forgetting that Japan started the war. When you start a war, you accept that you are going to suffer casualties, including civilian ones. If you're not willing to accept that, then don't start the fucking war.

And before you say "But the civilians didn't do anything!" please let me remind you that they were prepared and very willing to die in the name of the Empire.

Yes, every single one wholeheartedly supported the war, and every single one wanted to die in defence of the emporer.

Oh wait, no, that's bullshit.

[Mkuki]

Have there ever been studies on the cost of Japanese lives if the US invaded Japan? I voted No, cause it saved American lives, but wouldn't a full-scale invasion be just as deadly for the Japanese as the Americans?

I think almost everyone can agree that a invasion would have resulted in more deaths and casualties on both sides than those that came about because of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

As for the first question, there have been. US military officials, at the time, did have their own estimates that they provided to President Truman and to Joint Chiefs of Staff Marshall.

[Patheon Global Security]

>implying those millions were only soldiers and no innocent civilian

Nope mate

uh, no I didn't. Plenty of innocent civilians would have been offended.

Let me make it clearer. Insulting billions of innocent civilians > killing hundreds of thousands of innocents.

So I assume you were for the A bomb solution over the invasion?

Nice

[Wisconsin9]

I think you're forgetting that Japan started the war. When you start a war, you accept that you are going to suffer casualties, including civilian ones. If you're not willing to accept that, then don't start the fucking war.

And before you say "But the civilians didn't do anything!" please let me remind you that they were prepared and very willing to die in the name of the Empire.

Yes, every single one wholeheartedly supported the war, and every single one wanted to die in defence of the emporer.

Oh wait, no, that's bullshit.

Eighty percent of the people in a room with you want to kill you. Your only two choices are to either allow them to do so or to kill them all because you don't know which ones are friendly. What do you do?

[Genivaria]

For the circumstances it was the lesser evil.
The Japanese would NOT surrender, every civilian was being armed and readied to fight to the death.
A couple of nukes were the more humane option.

I doubt we'll see such a situation again in our lifetime.

[Person012345]

uh, no I didn't. Plenty of innocent civilians would have been offended.

Let me make it clearer. Insulting billions of innocent civilians > killing hundreds of thousands of innocents.

So I assume you were for the A bomb solution over the invasion?

Nice

Are you even reading the conversation? At all. Go back a few. That is a false dichotomy. Go and read what was said, please.

[Great Nepal]

Anything but unconditional surrender was not acceptable and would be insult to victims of Japanese Empire.
Japanese Empire was responsible for atrocities that were condemned by Nazi Germany and launched unprovoked, undeclared attack against United States after embarking upon campaign to takeover Asia and Pacific.

Insulting milions > Killing hundreds of thousands of innocents

You still dont get my post (either that or you are deliberately ignoring the point). Here, I will spell it out:
Anything but unconditional surrender would have given Japanese empire, chance to rise again which would be insult to every victim of Japanese atrocities and USA.

[Patheon Global Security]

So I assume you were for the A bomb solution over the invasion?

Nice

Are you even reading the conversation? At all. Go back a few. That is a false dichotomy. Go and read what was said, please.

*shrughs*

So I don't assume you supported the A-bomb solution? Such a shame, it was a lesser of two evils.

[United States of Peace]

For the circumstances it was the lesser evil.
The Japanese would NOT surrender, every civilian was being armed and readied to fight to the death.
A couple of nukes were the more humane option.

I doubt we'll see such a situation again in our lifetime.

^

This sums up my views as well.

[Risottia]

And before you say "But the civilians didn't do anything!" please let me remind you that they were prepared and very willing to die in the name of the Empire.

Turns out the civilians didn't commit a mass-suicide when the Empire surrendered.
Also, turns out they didn't inflict massive casualties on the Allies on Okinawa.

So?