Is there a men's rights movement now afoot?

[Tahar Joblis]

Or, for instance, what if what happened was that he approached a seasoned feminists and started asking What About The Menz??? and then got told to go play in traffic?

Then he found a misandrist "feminist" who most likely refuses to acknowledge that female privileges do exist and thinks that discussion of gender issues should be reserved solely to female voices.

And, frankly, it's the large and vocal population of such so-called "feminists" who we can blame for any rise of a men's rights movement. Because such people are communicating very loudly and clearly that they have no interest in addressing any men's issues, and communicating loudly and clearly that they believe that feminism should not address such issues, and that they will prevent feminism from addressing such issues.

Which, in turn, indicates the need for a separate movement to address the other half of the gender equity problem.

[Dyakovo]

And, of course, she was hooked up to the feminist hivemind and was thus speaking for all feminists and not just voicing her personal opinion...

This is an example of another reason the change should be made.
It provides cover to sexists.

One person supposedly saying something that might be construed as being sexist if you squint just right is the reason why there needs to be a men's rights movement?
I see my original statement was accurate...

[Ostroeuropa]

This is an example of another reason the change should be made.
It provides cover to sexists.

One person supposedly saying something that might be construed as being sexist if you squint just right is the reason why there needs to be a men's rights movement?
I see my original statement was accurate...

I was talking about the change from feminism to gender egalitarianism as the term. The actual ideology held by intellectual feminists would not need to change.
However, it would mean that it becomes a lot harder for people to be misandrist, as well as eliminates the line of argument that
"Well you are just pro-women and sexist against men so why can't we be sexist against women!"

As well, it will hammer the actual point home more strongly to the normal people who dont devote their time to thinking about this shit.
Everyone is pretty quick to notice when someone is racist against ANYBODY. But sexism against men isn't so readily noticed because the normal fucks think "feminism = women oppressed." not "Feminism = Gender Equality"
If the goals of gender equality are better served by calling the movement the gender equality movement, or gender egalitarianism, then so be it.

[Bottle]

This is an example of another reason the change should be made.
It provides cover to sexists.

One person supposedly saying something that might be construed as being sexist if you squint just right is the reason why there needs to be a men's rights movement?
I see my original statement was accurate...

At least he provided another stunning example of his privilege-blinders, eh? As if sexists need cover. You kidding me? Overt sexism does not need cover. It is POPULAR. It is mainstream. It is everywhere.

Dear Concerned Humanist-Not-Feminist-Who-Is-Just-Trying-To-Help,

I know you will encounter zillions of people who start their sentences with, "The feminists will totally kill me for this, but..." You will encounter tons of people who rant about the PC Police and their oppressive activities. The internet is full of brave rebels who bravely rebel against the newfangled popular trend of assuming that female people get full human status.

These people are douchecannoes.

Do not base your assessment of reality on what they have to say.

Do not become a tone troll and harp on feminists for "giving sexists cover" or for "chasing away men who might otherwise support them" or "being so shrill about it." Do not do this because we will point and laugh and pat you on your dear little head, because, darling, those sexists do not give one flying fuck how we treat them. No matter what tone we use or what words we choose or how willing we are to get down on our knees and blow them before we politely request a chance to speak, sir, they will treat us precisely the same way, which is like unpersons who are less-than.

We know this from experience. Of which you have none.

[Ostroeuropa]

One person supposedly saying something that might be construed as being sexist if you squint just right is the reason why there needs to be a men's rights movement?
I see my original statement was accurate...

At least he provided another stunning example of his privilege-blinders, eh? As if sexists need cover. You kidding me? Overt sexism does not need cover. It is POPULAR. It is mainstream. It is everywhere.

Dear Concerned Humanist-Not-Feminist-Who-Is-Just-Trying-To-Help,

I know you will encounter zillions of people who start their sentences with, "The feminists will totally kill me for this, but..." You will encounter tons of people who rant about the PC Police and their oppressive activities. The internet is full of brave rebels who bravely rebel against the newfangled popular trend of assuming that female people get full human status.

These people are douchecannoes.

Do not base your assessment of reality on what they have to say.

Do not become a tone troll and harp on feminists for "giving sexists cover" or for "chasing away men who might otherwise support them" or "being so shrill about it." Do not do this because we will point and laugh and pat you on your dear little head, because, darling, those sexists do not give one flying fuck how we treat them. No matter what tone we use or what words we choose or how willing we are to get down on our knees and blow them before we politely request a chance to speak, sir, they will treat us precisely the same way, which is like unpersons who are less-than.

We know this from experience. Of which you have none.

You've clearly read none of my or Tahars post with regard to privilege.
Yes, you do provide cover and an audience for sexism by labeling your movement feminism. Yes, sexism is everywhere anyway. But we don't have to allow it to wear our clothes and be mistaken for progressiveness. Whereas sexism against females is now readily regarded as being unacceptable among most people, those same people are divided on whether sexism against men is even POSSIBLE. This is directly a result of feminism failing to address the problem of sexism by focusing the problem on only one gender.
As a result in most civilized countries most sexist laws are against one gender (men.) which assists greatly in maintaining divisions in society. Any attempt to have this changed from a feminist viewpoint immediately launches us into a discussion about mens rights, which is the entire fucking problem. There are no womens or mens rights, there are only human rights.

[Neo Art]

One person supposedly saying something that might be construed as being sexist if you squint just right is the reason why there needs to be a men's rights movement?
I see my original statement was accurate...

At least he provided another stunning example of his privilege-blinders, eh? As if sexists need cover. You kidding me? Overt sexism does not need cover. It is POPULAR. It is mainstream. It is everywhere.

Dear Concerned Humanist-Not-Feminist-Who-Is-Just-Trying-To-Help,

I know you will encounter zillions of people who start their sentences with, "The feminists will totally kill me for this, but..." You will encounter tons of people who rant about the PC Police and their oppressive activities. The internet is full of brave rebels who bravely rebel against the newfangled popular trend of assuming that female people get full human status.

These people are douchecannoes.

Do not base your assessment of reality on what they have to say.

Do not become a tone troll and harp on feminists for "giving sexists cover" or for "chasing away men who might otherwise support them" or "being so shrill about it." Do not do this because we will point and laugh and pat you on your dear little head, because, darling, those sexists do not give one flying fuck how we treat them. No matter what tone we use or what words we choose or how willing we are to get down on our knees and blow them before we politely request a chance to speak, sir, they will treat us precisely the same way, which is like unpersons who are less-than.

We know this from experience. Of which you have none.

I also think that any person who actually trots out the "I'm a HUMANIST!" or "I'm an EGALITARIAN!" should be prompted to demonstrate what, exactly, they've done to further the rights of disenfranchised groups.

Because it seems to me that the 101st Fighting Keyboards have been recently outnumbered by the "intergalitarians". You know they type, those who inject themselves into any discussion about human rights with claims that they "don't care about things like race" or "don't really SEE gender" because they're such good people, with some smug self satisfaction you can practically envision them polishing a monacle.

I always kinda wonder "OK Mr. Humanist, what's your bonafides?" Because, call me crazy, but before you go around claimaint to be such an enlightened soul that you care about the plight of everyone everywhere all the time you might be able to pony up and show what, exactly, you've done to deserve to call yourself a human rights activist.

Because, much as the 101st Fighting Keyboards haven't quite learned that liking the military doesn't mean you served in the military, caring about causes does absolutely fuck all.

[Ostroeuropa]

At least he provided another stunning example of his privilege-blinders, eh? As if sexists need cover. You kidding me? Overt sexism does not need cover. It is POPULAR. It is mainstream. It is everywhere.

Dear Concerned Humanist-Not-Feminist-Who-Is-Just-Trying-To-Help,

I know you will encounter zillions of people who start their sentences with, "The feminists will totally kill me for this, but..." You will encounter tons of people who rant about the PC Police and their oppressive activities. The internet is full of brave rebels who bravely rebel against the newfangled popular trend of assuming that female people get full human status.

These people are douchecannoes.

Do not base your assessment of reality on what they have to say.

Do not become a tone troll and harp on feminists for "giving sexists cover" or for "chasing away men who might otherwise support them" or "being so shrill about it." Do not do this because we will point and laugh and pat you on your dear little head, because, darling, those sexists do not give one flying fuck how we treat them. No matter what tone we use or what words we choose or how willing we are to get down on our knees and blow them before we politely request a chance to speak, sir, they will treat us precisely the same way, which is like unpersons who are less-than.

We know this from experience. Of which you have none.

I also think that any person who actually trots out the "I'm a HUMANIST!" or "I'm an EGALITARIAN!" should be prompted to demonstrate what, exactly, they've done to further the rights of disenfranchised groups.

Because it seems to me that the 101st Fighting Keyboards have been recently outnumbered by the "intergalitarians". You know they type, those who inject themselves into any discussion about human rights with claims that they "don't care about things like race" or "don't really SEE gender" because they're such good people, with some smug self satisfaction you can practically envision them polishing a monacle.

I always kinda wonder "OK Mr. Humanist, what's your bonafides?" Because, call me crazy, but before you go around claimaint to be such an enlightened soul that you care about the plight of everyone everywhere all the time you might be able to pony up and show what, exactly, you've done to deserve to call yourself a human rights activist.

Because, much as the 101st Fighting Keyboards haven't quite learned that liking the military doesn't mean you served in the military, caring about causes does absolutely fuck all.

I have previously offered "councilling" to male victims of abuse due to none being available in my area (I would have prefered it be gender neutral but seeing as all the female victims would obviously attend the state sanctioned one they are refered to and not look for us, i was skeptical it'd be taken seriously unless it was explicit in why it needed to exist). Me and two others got the ball rolling. It may not be much but it's something.
In reality it was just a support group. I have stopped attending meetings.
What have you done then?
I suppose you must not really be a feminist by that line of logic.

[Neo Art]

What have you done then?

For starters.

We can also add my current career with a little organization known as the department of labor. Fair labor standards, kinda my job, ya see.

I suppose you must not really be a feminist by that line of logic.

It's funny how you automatically assume I'm a victim of that mentality.

I am not.

[Ostroeuropa]

What have you done then?

For starters.

We can also add my current career with a little organization known as the department of labor.

Congratulations. I still think your tone was unnecessarily dismissive of intellectual contributions and advocating.
Especially as, were you convinced, they would have just convinced someone in those positions and such which is a great step forward. Discussion is a valid contribution even disregarding everything else. And that said, this is a discussion forum. What else would there be to do here other than discuss?

[Neo Art]

I still think your tone was unnecessarily dismissive of intellectual contributions and advocating.

I thought it was exactly as dismissive as it deserved. You think this bullshit on an internet forum constitutes "intellectual contributions?"

You think this is contributing?

You're not only suffering from a massively overly enflated ego, you're clearly delusional.

[Ostroeuropa]

I still think your tone was unnecessarily dismissive of intellectual contributions and advocating.

I thought it was exactly as dismissive as it deserved. You think this bullshit on an internet forum constitutes "intellectual contributions?"

You think this is contributing?

You're not only suffering from a massively overly enflated ego, you're clearly delusional.

Then why are you even here? By discussing these issues with people we're both educating eachother (if we do it right) and ourselves, which in turn allows us to do the same to others.
The exchange of information and ideas is an intellectual contribution to society.
Almost every conversation benefits us. Not only that, but by being provoked by ideas you disagree with you can bring your own views into focus and analyze why it is you believe what you believe, etc.
I'd prefer you didn't degenerate into personal attacks.

[Neo Art]

I thought it was exactly as dismissive as it deserved. You think this bullshit on an internet forum constitutes "intellectual contributions?"

You think this is contributing?

You're not only suffering from a massively overly enflated ego, you're clearly delusional.

Then why are you even here?

The same reason I've always been here. To kill time. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't saving the world. This isn't advancing the cause. This isn't fighting the fight.

It's a mental circlejerk around keyboards, and it's never been anything more than that. And anyone who thinks this actually ACCOMPLISHES something has a gravely inflated sense of their own importance.

Real change is affected in the real world. This is just jerking off.

Not only that, but by being provoked by ideas you disagree with you can bring your own views into focus and analyze why it is you believe what you believe, etc.

You again presume to think that people here are regularly capable of coming up with a counter argument to my viewpoints that I haven't already considered. You massively overestimate yourself again.

It happens, on rare occassions, but with far less frequency than people think it does.

[Ostroeuropa]

Then why are you even here?

The same reason I've always been here. To kill time. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't saving the world. This isn't advancing the cause. This isn't fighting the fight.

It's a mental circlejerk around keyboards, and it's never been anything more than that. And anyone who thinks this actually ACCOMPLISHES something has a gravely inflated sense of their own importance.

Real change is affected in the real world. This is just jerking off.

Explained in an edit why this isn't the case.
Even if we can change how a person would vote in an election or a referendum, thats an important change. And educating eachother as to arguments, perhaps occasionally even radically changing someones viewpoint on an issue, is itself an important endeavor.
If we can get someone to notice that they are or were previously behaving in a sexist manner, and get them to prevent doing so in the future, that's also an important change. It all ripples outward.

[Conserative Morality]

The same reason I've always been here. To kill time. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't saving the world. This isn't advancing the cause. This isn't fighting the fight.

It's a mental circlejerk around keyboards, and it's never been anything more than that. And anyone who thinks this actually ACCOMPLISHES something has a gravely inflated sense of their own importance.

Real change is affected in the real world. This is just jerking off.

You seem to have a low opinion of discussing matters of politics and philosophy.

[Ostroeuropa]

The same reason I've always been here. To kill time. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't saving the world. This isn't advancing the cause. This isn't fighting the fight.

It's a mental circlejerk around keyboards, and it's never been anything more than that. And anyone who thinks this actually ACCOMPLISHES something has a gravely inflated sense of their own importance.

Real change is affected in the real world. This is just jerking off.

You seem to have a low opinion of discussing matters of politics and philosophy.

Quite. it's only by discussions like this that we ever came to realize that there was such a thing a sexism.

[Neo Art]

The same reason I've always been here. To kill time. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't saving the world. This isn't advancing the cause. This isn't fighting the fight.

It's a mental circlejerk around keyboards, and it's never been anything more than that. And anyone who thinks this actually ACCOMPLISHES something has a gravely inflated sense of their own importance.

Real change is affected in the real world. This is just jerking off.

You seem to have a low opinion of discussing matters of politics and philosophy.

I have exactly the opinion they deserve. Something to be entertaining, and kill some time. It is, at time, reasonably entertaining. And "reasonably entertaining" is all I ever really wanted or expected from NSG, and will remain here as long as it continues to be "reasonably entertaining" and will leave when it stops being such.

And as far as something to do that constitutes being "reasonably entertaining" it suits that purpose ok. But I don't pretend that it's something that it's not, and that goes for your contributions, as well as my own.

We're killing time here, not saving the world.

[Neo Art]

You seem to have a low opinion of discussing matters of politics and philosophy.

Quite. it's only by discussions like this that we ever came to realize that there was such a thing a sexism.

If you only learned sexism exists by conversations on an internet forum, then this may explains ome very strange perceptions about the world that you seem to have.

[Ostroeuropa]

You seem to have a low opinion of discussing matters of politics and philosophy.

I have exactly the opinion they deserve. Something to be entertaining, and kill some time. It is, at time, reasonably entertaining. And "reasonably entertaining" is all I ever really wanted or expected from NSG, and will remain here as long as it continues to be "reasonably entertaining" and will leave when it stops being such.

And as far as something to do that constitutes being "reasonably entertaining" it suits that purpose ok. But I don't pretend that it's something that it's not, and that goes for your contributions, as well as my own.

We're killing time here, not saving the world.

Well, ignoring the fact that thats a hyberbole, if every person took some time out of the day to discuss moral and ethical problems with people do you think the world would be a better place?
And if you do, then isn't being a good citizen in such a way an important part of setting that trend?

[Nadkor]

The same reason I've always been here. To kill time. Nothing more, nothing less. This isn't saving the world. This isn't advancing the cause. This isn't fighting the fight.

It's a mental circlejerk around keyboards, and it's never been anything more than that. And anyone who thinks this actually ACCOMPLISHES something has a gravely inflated sense of their own importance.

Real change is affected in the real world. This is just jerking off.

You seem to have a low opinion of discussing matters of politics and philosophy.

Calm down, Michel.

[Conserative Morality]

I have exactly the opinion they deserve. Something to be entertaining, and kill some time. It is, at time, reasonably entertaining. And "reasonably entertaining" is all I ever really wanted or expected from NSG, and will remain here as long as it continues to be "reasonably entertaining" and will leave when it stops being such.

And as far as something to do that constitutes being "reasonably entertaining" it suits that purpose ok. But I don't pretend that it's something that it's not, and that goes for your contributions, as well as my own.

We're killing time here, not saving the world.

I've never claimed we're saving the world here. However, NSG does provide a whetstone for the mind, so to speak, allowing ideas and arguments to be formed and refined in a more willing, able, and regular forum (Ha) for discussion of politics and philosophy than one would be able to find on such a regular basis in the real world. And, of course, there is the occasional person that walks away with changed opinions because of discussions that happen on here.

It may not be world changing, but there are other effects that NSG has other than 'entertainment'.

[Ostroeuropa]

Quite. it's only by discussions like this that we ever came to realize that there was such a thing a sexism.

If you only learned sexism exists by conversations on an internet forum, then this may explains ome very strange perceptions about the world that you seem to have.

The manner of the discussion is utterly irrelevant.
Not only are you dismissive of discussion but also the internet, which is the greatest communication tool ever made.
That a discussion took place about gender at some point in history is the very foundation of this continued conversation we're having about it now.

[Conserative Morality]

Calm down, Michel.

You think that was an outburst of emotion?

Or is the 'Michel' a reference I'm not getting?

[Neo Art]

I have exactly the opinion they deserve. Something to be entertaining, and kill some time. It is, at time, reasonably entertaining. And "reasonably entertaining" is all I ever really wanted or expected from NSG, and will remain here as long as it continues to be "reasonably entertaining" and will leave when it stops being such.

And as far as something to do that constitutes being "reasonably entertaining" it suits that purpose ok. But I don't pretend that it's something that it's not, and that goes for your contributions, as well as my own.

We're killing time here, not saving the world.

I've never claimed we're saving the world here. However, NSG does provide a whetstone for the mind, so to speak, allowing ideas and arguments to be formed and refined in a more willing, able, and regular forum (Ha) for discussion of politics and philosophy than one would be able to find on such a regular basis in the real world. And, of course, there is the occasional person that walks away with changed opinions because of discussions that happen on here.

It may not be world changing, but there are other effects that NSG has other than 'entertainment'.

If you find NSG to be a place where you can refine your ideas through intellectual challenges, which is missing from your life, I posit that you have both extremely boring friends, and not very well formed opinions.

But that's not really relevant to this topic.

[Ostroeuropa]

I've never claimed we're saving the world here. However, NSG does provide a whetstone for the mind, so to speak, allowing ideas and arguments to be formed and refined in a more willing, able, and regular forum (Ha) for discussion of politics and philosophy than one would be able to find on such a regular basis in the real world. And, of course, there is the occasional person that walks away with changed opinions because of discussions that happen on here.

It may not be world changing, but there are other effects that NSG has other than 'entertainment'.

If you find NSG to be a place where you can refine your ideas through intellectual challenges, which is missing from your life, I posit that you have both extremely boring friends, and not very well formed opinions.

But that's not really relevant to this topic.

The implication of your statement seems to be that you too are incapable of forming an argument that challenges people. After all, you are part of this forum.
I have interesting friends. They just aren't interested in politics or philosophy. And thats fine. We can discuss ponies any time.

[Neo Art]

That a discussion took place about gender at some point in history is the very foundation of this continued conversation we're having about it now.

Talk, as the saying goes, is cheap. Discussion not resulting in action is borederline useless, and merely serves as a mental masturbatory aid.

Hence my original inquiry, what, exactly, are your bonafides?