Is there a men's rights movement now afoot?

[New Sapienta]

So, Men, rise up, to fight for what you already have under the law. You see, although women, ethnic minorities, disabled people, etc. clammer for the rights they don't have, seeing as they in fact discriminated, we must make a show to them, to clammer for the rights we do have as we are in that happy state where we are perpetually persecuted in fiction.

Of course, anothe ignorant post that doesn't even read the OP or any of the other posts.

[Seriong]

So, Men, rise up, to fight for what you already have under the law. You see, although women, ethnic minorities, disabled people, etc. clammer for the rights they don't have, seeing as they in fact discriminated, we must make a show to them, to clammer for the rights we do have as we are in that happy state where we are perpetually persecuted in fiction.

Yeah! That's why the movement want to reform things like this:

The stereotypes of men pushed onto children
The personification of men as pedophiles/sex crazed fiends
The virgin shaming of men
The falling behind of boys in school systems
The demonization of men who sleep with multiple women, "He's such a pig!"
The rape shame/Lack of acknowledging that men can be raped

That stuff has all already been done! Have you looked into this movement at all?

[The Godly Nations]

So, Men, rise up, to fight for what you already have under the law. You see, although women, ethnic minorities, disabled people, etc. clammer for the rights they don't have, seeing as they in fact discriminated, we must make a show to them, to clammer for the rights we do have as we are in that happy state where we are perpetually persecuted in fiction.

Yeah! That's why the movement want to reform things like this:

The stereotypes of men pushed onto children

What stereotypes may that be, pray? It's the parent who raise the children, and they damn well raise them however they want.

The personification of men as pedophiles/sex crazed fiends

Where are they personified as such?

The virgin shaming of men

Virgin shaming? You are forming an entire group to address the fact that some men are weak against peer pressure?

The falling behind of boys in school systems

So, we need a special programme for boys who cannot be arsed to study, just as we have special programmes for girls, ethnic minorities who speak English as a first language, etc.

The demonization of men who sleep with multiple women, "He's such a pig!"

A lady who gets around is a 'whore'.

The rape shame/Lack of acknowledging that men can be raped

Men can be raped- who denies this? Women can rape men, Men can rape men. It isn't gender specific.

That stuff has all already been done! Have you looked into this movement at all?

I don't look into absurd movements trying to get in to this victim craze, when they have not been victimised in anyway. There is enough real oppression around that we need not bother with imaginary oppression, especially imaginary oppression of the group that has, historically, been dominate.

[Seriong]

Yeah! That's why the movement want to reform things like this:

The stereotypes of men pushed onto children

(1)What stereotypes may that be, pray? It's the parent who raise the children, and they damn well raise them however they want.

The personification of men as pedophiles/sex crazed fiends

(2)Where are they personified as such?

The virgin shaming of men

(3)Virgin shaming? You are forming an entire group to address the fact that some men are weak against peer pressure?

The falling behind of boys in school systems

(4)So, we need a special programme for boys who cannot be arsed to study, just as we have special programmes for girls, ethnic minorities who speak English as a first language, etc.

The demonization of men who sleep with multiple women, "He's such a pig!"

(5)A lady who gets around is a 'whore'.

The rape shame/Lack of acknowledging that men can be raped

(6)Men can be raped- who denies this? Women can rape men, Men can rape men. It isn't gender specific.

That stuff has all already been done! Have you looked into this movement at all?

(7)I don't look into absurd movements trying to get in to this victim craze, when they have not been victimised in anyway.

1) The idea of "Manly-ness" and it's media propagated. Look at the whole idealized concept of the "Strong silent type"
2) http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/seat-swap-outcry-moves-virgin-to-think-again-20120810-23y7q.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10357510
3) Yes, the fact that it was mentioned as one of the issues the movement addresses means that the entire movement was formed to address that.
4) No, and frankly, this is one of the issues I am not well versed in. I was just putting it there to mention what the movement addresses.
5) The main complaint is that feminism addresses the problem as it affects women, but not as it affects men.
6) Well, that was the U.S. policy until recently.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57354078/men-can-be-rape-victims-new-govt-policy-says/
"Since 1929, the FBI has defined rape as the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will. The revised definition covers any gender of victim or attacker and includes instances in which the victim is incapable of giving consent due to the influence of drugs or alcohol or because of age. Physical resistance is not required."
Or people reacting "Oddly"
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/women-kidnap-rape-man-for-four-days/story-e6freuy9-1111118750294
http://www.yelp.com/topic/new-york-three-women-rape-man-for-4-days
"lucky bastard" "does anyone have their number?" "and what seems to be the problem?"
Yes, it's not that widespread there.
http://www.indianexpress.com/comments/five-jealous-wives-rape-nigerian-man-to-death/979270/
"this is how i want to die" "This is a joke, right ?" "I don't understand...how does a man that doesn't want it, especially in this situation, being attached by sticks and knives, still get it up to even be raped???!!!" And more.
Or just look at the fact that people laugh at sex crimes against men. http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/the-talk-cast-laughs-at-mans-dismembered-penis/
Sorry that this section was so long and full of links, but there are many cases of this happening.
7) There is in fact discrimination against men.

[Frisivisia]

I think that until we have minorities, gays, and women covered, then we can address the issues facing men. Until then, you're putting the cart before the horse a bit.

[The Godly Nations]

(1)What stereotypes may that be, pray? It's the parent who raise the children, and they damn well raise them however they want.



(2)Where are they personified as such?



(3)Virgin shaming? You are forming an entire group to address the fact that some men are weak against peer pressure?



(4)So, we need a special programme for boys who cannot be arsed to study, just as we have special programmes for girls, ethnic minorities who speak English as a first language, etc.



(5)A lady who gets around is a 'whore'.




(6)Men can be raped- who denies this? Women can rape men, Men can rape men. It isn't gender specific.



(7)I don't look into absurd movements trying to get in to this victim craze, when they have not been victimised in anyway.

1) The idea of "Manly-ness" and it's media propagated. Look at the whole idealized concept of the "Strong silent type"
2) http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/seat-swap-outcry-moves-virgin-to-think-again-20120810-23y7q.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10357510
3) Yes, the fact that it was mentioned as one of the issues the movement addresses means that the entire movement was formed to address that.
4) No, and frankly, this is one of the issues I am not well versed in. I was just putting it there to mention what the movement addresses.
5) The main complaint is that feminism addresses the problem as it affects women, but not as it affects men.
6) Well, that was the U.S. policy until recently.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57354078/men-can-be-rape-victims-new-govt-policy-says/
"Since 1929, the FBI has defined rape as the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will. The revised definition covers any gender of victim or attacker and includes instances in which the victim is incapable of giving consent due to the influence of drugs or alcohol or because of age. Physical resistance is not required."
Or people reacting "Oddly"
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/women-kidnap-rape-man-for-four-days/story-e6freuy9-1111118750294
http://www.yelp.com/topic/new-york-three-women-rape-man-for-4-days
"lucky bastard" "does anyone have their number?" "and what seems to be the problem?"
Yes, it's not that widespread there.
http://www.indianexpress.com/comments/five-jealous-wives-rape-nigerian-man-to-death/979270/
"this is how i want to die" "This is a joke, right ?" "I don't understand...how does a man that doesn't want it, especially in this situation, being attached by sticks and knives, still get it up to even be raped???!!!" And more.
Or just look at the fact that people laugh at sex crimes against men. http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/the-talk-cast-laughs-at-mans-dismembered-penis/
Sorry that this section was so long and full of links, but there are many cases of this happening.
7) There is in fact discrimination against men.

1. Manliness- and no. Parenting is the job of the parent- if they want to change, then raise their own kids based upon their own vision, and hopes it spreads around. If a parent wants to raise a child under a certain concept of what it means to be 'Manly', then, by all means, let them teach vigour, strength, courage, etc. Then you go on to complain about the image that the media projects to the children, a certain type of Masculinity- manly excellence, virtus as the Latins would call it. It is the part of the parents to teach the children to differentiate between reality and television- Alain Delon's Character in Le Samourai shoots random people, and is so cool, and what not, the parent is the one who tells them, no! don't go about acting like that, you'll seem socially stunted and killing people is plain wrong.

2. So, some airlines were arseholes- they are private companies, and you are paying them, if you don't like 'em, tough, withdraw your service, and move to a different company for your airline travel.

3. A person's failing is his own personal failing, not something inherent in the sex. If they are weak against pressure, it is ultimately the fault of their parent for not inoculating the virtue of Firmness. The lack of this quality is the fault of the parents, and not the fault of some societal discrimination. He choose his friends, he could still say no to them, he could tell them to respect his choice- cliche as that sounds, it is simple as what they taught you to do when someone offers your illegal narcotics in all those cheesy videos they made you watch throughout your school year, and is not a 'Male Issue', in fact, Male Issues are mostly non-issues.

4. So no argument here

5. A main criticism of this is that we are simply characterising scandelous behaviour in both sexes, only Females tend to be looked down upon worse than males- sometime, men make it a point of pride about how 'piggish' they are, amongst themselves, and draw admirers based upon it.

6. No, rape was subsumed into generalities, not between men and women. Despite what you think, the rape of a man by womankind tend to be extremely rare, low, and, while not condonable, certainly not a giant issue- it should be swept underneath a general 'rape', and taken care of it in so fashion, just like woman who are raped by men, men who are raped by men, and woman who are raped by women (notice how the more common cases of rape involve a man, and his penis).

7. There is only imagined persecution, and people who want to jump the persecution train with real victims of persecution. They are staffed mostly by non-issues, and should not be taken seriously.

[Euronion]

1) The idea of "Manly-ness" and it's media propagated. Look at the whole idealized concept of the "Strong silent type"
2) http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/seat-swap-outcry-moves-virgin-to-think-again-20120810-23y7q.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10357510
3) Yes, the fact that it was mentioned as one of the issues the movement addresses means that the entire movement was formed to address that.
4) No, and frankly, this is one of the issues I am not well versed in. I was just putting it there to mention what the movement addresses.
5) The main complaint is that feminism addresses the problem as it affects women, but not as it affects men.
6) Well, that was the U.S. policy until recently.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57354078/men-can-be-rape-victims-new-govt-policy-says/
"Since 1929, the FBI has defined rape as the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will. The revised definition covers any gender of victim or attacker and includes instances in which the victim is incapable of giving consent due to the influence of drugs or alcohol or because of age. Physical resistance is not required."
Or people reacting "Oddly"
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/women-kidnap-rape-man-for-four-days/story-e6freuy9-1111118750294
http://www.yelp.com/topic/new-york-three-women-rape-man-for-4-days
"lucky bastard" "does anyone have their number?" "and what seems to be the problem?"
Yes, it's not that widespread there.
http://www.indianexpress.com/comments/five-jealous-wives-rape-nigerian-man-to-death/979270/
"this is how i want to die" "This is a joke, right ?" "I don't understand...how does a man that doesn't want it, especially in this situation, being attached by sticks and knives, still get it up to even be raped???!!!" And more.
Or just look at the fact that people laugh at sex crimes against men. http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/the-talk-cast-laughs-at-mans-dismembered-penis/
Sorry that this section was so long and full of links, but there are many cases of this happening.
7) There is in fact discrimination against men.

1. Manliness- and no. Parenting is the job of the parent- if they want to change, then raise their own kids based upon their own vision, and hopes it spreads around. If a parent wants to raise a child under a certain concept of what it means to be 'Manly', then, by all means, let them teach vigour, strength, courage, etc. Then you go on to complain about the image that the media projects to the children, a certain type of Masculinity- manly excellence, virtus as the Latins would call it. It is the part of the parents to teach the children to differentiate between reality and television- Alain Delon's Character in Le Samourai shoots random people, and is so cool, and what not, the parent is the one who tells them, no! don't go about acting like that, you'll seem socially stunted and killing people is plain wrong.

2. So, some airlines were arseholes- they are private companies, and you are paying them, if you don't like 'em, tough, withdraw your service, and move to a different company for your airline travel.

3. A person's failing is his own personal failing, not something inherent in the sex. If they are weak against pressure, it is ultimately the fault of their parent for not inoculating the virtue of Firmness. The lack of this quality is the fault of the parents, and not the fault of some societal discrimination. He choose his friends, he could still say no to them, he could tell them to respect his choice- cliche as that sounds, it is simple as what they taught you to do when someone offers your illegal narcotics in all those cheesy videos they made you watch throughout your school year, and is not a 'Male Issue', in fact, Male Issues are mostly non-issues.

4. So no argument here

5. A main criticism of this is that we are simply characterising scandelous behaviour in both sexes, only Females tend to be looked down upon worse than males- sometime, men make it a point of pride about how 'piggish' they are, amongst themselves, and draw admirers based upon it.

6. No, rape was subsumed into generalities, not between men and women. Despite what you think, the rape of a man by womankind tend to be extremely rare, low, and, while not condonable, certainly not a giant issue- it should be swept underneath a general 'rape', and taken care of it in so fashion, just like woman who are raped by men, men who are raped by men, and woman who are raped by women (notice how the more common cases of rape involve a man, and his penis).

7. There is only imagined persecution, and people who want to jump the persecution train with real victims of persecution. They are staffed mostly by non-issues, and should not be taken seriously.

1. Wrong, I played all sorts of violent videogames and my parents never once told me not to shoot anybody, they assumed it was common sense. The media portrays these stereotypes and the Parents enforce or take no action (which is as good as enforcing) these stereotypes, especially to girls and to women.

2. If this discrimination were happening against women, would you be so quick to say "well yeah that's pretty bad, oh well, instead of trying to correct their behavior, I'll just fly with someone else, completely ignoring the fact that one person changing their flight is going to earn the company a tiny less bit of profit" if this discrimination does happen then it should be fought were it festers, in the words of MLK Jr. "Injustice somewhere is a threat to Justice Everywhere"

3. there are many points in this part that I find simply ineffably bad so I shall divide your point into subpoints and address each individually

3. A person's failing is his own personal failing, not something inherent in the sex.

So you yourself are saying that being a virgin is a failing, therefore it is logical to assume that those who are virgins are failures for being virgins. You yourself are perpetuating this stereotype, and who is saying that we are broadening this to all males? we are saying that you should not be shamed because no girl or woman has felt it suitable to stick your penis inside her vagina yet, or does desire it but does not wish to tell you such.

If they are weak against pressure, it is ultimately the fault of their parent for not inoculating the virtue of Firmness.

do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? "well you know if their feelings get hurt because people are making fun of them then it's the parent's fault cause they didn't raise them to be tough enough to deal with it" aka "suck it up, you're a man" again another stereotype, you are just full of stereotypes today.

The lack of this quality is the fault of the parents, and not the fault of some societal discrimination.

YES! so if someone is homosexual, we should allow people to bully and discriminate them amirite? you know, cause if it hurts their feelings it's obviously the parent's fault for not teaching him to be manly enough amirite?

He choose his friends, he could still say no to them,

<assuming that the people teasing him are his friends, and not his PE Classmates, people talking behind his back, or people that he is otherwise forced to be around>

he could tell them to respect his choice- cliche as that sounds,

Who says it is a choice? and you forget that virgin shaming goes on because the IDEA that you are a virgin gets around, it's not like you are a caterpillar and as proof that you lost your virginity you turn into a butterfly. I can say I've had sex with fifty women or ten women, it does not mean that those who may be teasing me will believe me, the very fact that they have the character to tease someone for that suggests that they would not believe him.

it is simple as what they taught you to do when someone offers your illegal narcotics in all those cheesy videos they made you watch throughout your school year,

No it is not as simple, you can get away from people with narcotics, people aren't smoking weed in classrooms while the teacher is not looking, people are however, teasing and bullying while teachers are not looking. If you were ever in school or by extension ever bullied you would know that you are stuck in a classroom with other people, and in classes such as PE or English, there are no options for accelerated courses meaning you are stuck in a class with people who may bully and tease you and you have no choice but to endure it or report it to a teacher. Though I suppose if the teacher holds your philosophy they'd merely say something like "well it's your parent's fault for not instilling the Latin virtus of firmness and masculinity in you"

and is not a 'Male Issue', in fact, Male Issues are mostly non-issues.

Completely and totally wrong, ignorant, and just . . . I have no words, I have no words at all. Perhaps you should take a look at this news story before you say that Male issues are "non-issues"

4. I think we need to get boys more motivated about learning, it was not sufficient to say that girls were "too lazy to be bothered to get off their arses" when they were behind and it is not sufficient to say that of males.

5. Some women like to rape , some women like to strip eleven year olds, some women like child pornography, some women like to murder, some women <insert something scandalous here> does it matter what "some men" do? both men and women are in the porn industry, both men and women enjoy consensual sex, but whereas a virgin woman is looked at as "pure" a virgin man is looked at, in your own words a "personal failure,"

6. I don't care if the rape of a man by a woman happens one time or a million times, it is still rape, still inexcusable, and in some cases not recognized by the government. The NEW definition defines rape as penetration, which leaves the prospect open for woman on man rape and woman on woman rape as neither process necessarily involves penetration. To say that rape of men is not "an issue" is simply discriminatory.

7. Just because gay people are killed in Uganda, does not mean that if homosexuals are denied the right to civil union that they should not claim a right to such. Whether the discrimination is soft, broad, narrow, or cutting, it matters not, it is still discrimination and it must be fought wherever it festers, no excuses, no exceptions and to simply brush men's issues off as no issues at all is nothing less than discrimination on the basis of gender.

[Tahar Joblis]

Which means you think that there is a relatively small subset of men raped repeatedly? Ergo, one of the four explanations I presented?

Another explanation is that "made to penetrate" rapes against men are on the rise, skewing figures towards a more recent data trend

Which would be, in other words, alarming and a reason to take immediate action.

Most of what I've heard on that end relate to social acceptability of accepting such a job and the lower pay in elementary settings.

Both of which have improved since the seventies, when the percentage of male teachers peaked.

Except for the little issue of pedophile panic.

I don't follow how this is a gender issue.

Pedophile panic is a gender issue because pedophiles are stereotyped as male, and vice versa.

This - particularly the vice versa part - is not especially accurate and enables female pedophiles, but that's the way it is, and feminists helped stir up pedophile panic in the first place.

Because men tend to take courses offering fewer credits and having a lower GPA, this is an issue that feminism needs to resolve

When fewer women applied to college, this was an issue feminism felt the need to resolve, because obviously such a thing must be the result of discrimination.
When fewer women got into to college, this was an issue feminism felt the need to resolve, because obviously such a thing must be the result of discrimination.
When fewer women completed college, even though women made up the clear majority of students, this was an issue feminism felt the need to resolve, because obviously such a thing must be the result of discrimination.
When fewer women went to graduate school, this was an issue feminism felt the need to resolve, because obviously such a thing must be the result of discrimination.
When fewer women completed graduate school, this was an issue feminism felt the need to resolve, because obviously such a thing must be the result of discrimination.

When men now make up a diminishing minority of higher education students, drop out from high school in much larger numbers, and in fact are actively falling behind at every level from elementary school to doctoral degrees, feminists don't feel the need to resolve that issue. They do, however, feel the need to work to increase the number of women in physics, math, computer, etc related fields of study, while not lifting a hand to increase the number of men in education, nursing, et cetera.

Sentencing bias as visible as the black-white bias.

Refusal to recognize male victims of domestic violence and rape, in particular when such happens at the hands of women.

You think feminists ignore that?

On the net balance, yes. Some feminists acknowledge it on paper, others fight vigorously against male victims taking funding and support destined for female victims, and a large coalition of feminist organizations backed an entirely new yet still horribly sexist definition of rape that excludes the vast majority of male victims and the vast majority of female perpetrators.

Some feminists have acknowledged that women are getting off light in the criminal justice system [notably, some first-wave feminists] but a number actually actively work against women receiving prison sentences at all.

I have no idea what you mean here.

Well, then, don't argue that feminists have been working to fix it.

Success objects?

Principally, economic objects.

Here in the 'states it's still very much celebrated on a societal level.

No, it most certainly is not.

Persistent virgin-shaming of men.

Prejudice against virgins hits men and women, believe it or not.

New slut-shaming of men.

I have to admit, I have seen this to some degree, but I generally attribute it to a more gender-equal perception of sexuality in the younger generation.

The number of male nurses have been increasing over the years. What of it?

Very slowly. And not because of action by feminists.

Questionable.

NOW regularly conflates fathers gaining custody more often with abusers gaining custody more often.

Gendered asymmetry in the assignment of parental rights and obligations.

Certainly not an issue of any single gender, but of both.

Given the asymmetry strictly benefits women, this is an issue of female privilege and male disadvantage. Feminists have not lifted a finger to change the asymmetry.

The feminist movement isn't nearly as strong as it once was either. Having achieved the most visible goals, it has now fractured and lacks the united front it once had; is weakness now a moral fault?

Feminism is as strong as it ever has been, as a political force.

[Freelanderness]

Sure is. White, Christian men are the most oppressed in 'murica.

[Seriong]

1) The idea of "Manly-ness" and it's media propagated. Look at the whole idealized concept of the "Strong silent type"
2) http://www.smh.com.au/travel/travel-incidents/seat-swap-outcry-moves-virgin-to-think-again-20120810-23y7q.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airline_sex_discrimination_policy_controversy
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10357510
3) Yes, the fact that it was mentioned as one of the issues the movement addresses means that the entire movement was formed to address that.
4) No, and frankly, this is one of the issues I am not well versed in. I was just putting it there to mention what the movement addresses.
5) The main complaint is that feminism addresses the problem as it affects women, but not as it affects men.
6) Well, that was the U.S. policy until recently.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57354078/men-can-be-rape-victims-new-govt-policy-says/
"Since 1929, the FBI has defined rape as the carnal knowledge of a female, forcibly and against her will. The revised definition covers any gender of victim or attacker and includes instances in which the victim is incapable of giving consent due to the influence of drugs or alcohol or because of age. Physical resistance is not required."
Or people reacting "Oddly"
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/women-kidnap-rape-man-for-four-days/story-e6freuy9-1111118750294
http://www.yelp.com/topic/new-york-three-women-rape-man-for-4-days
"lucky bastard" "does anyone have their number?" "and what seems to be the problem?"
Yes, it's not that widespread there.
http://www.indianexpress.com/comments/five-jealous-wives-rape-nigerian-man-to-death/979270/
"this is how i want to die" "This is a joke, right ?" "I don't understand...how does a man that doesn't want it, especially in this situation, being attached by sticks and knives, still get it up to even be raped???!!!" And more.
Or just look at the fact that people laugh at sex crimes against men. http://goodmenproject.com/good-feed-blog/the-talk-cast-laughs-at-mans-dismembered-penis/
Sorry that this section was so long and full of links, but there are many cases of this happening.
7) There is in fact discrimination against men.

1. Manliness- and no. Parenting is the job of the parent- if they want to change, then raise their own kids based upon their own vision, and hopes it spreads around. If a parent wants to raise a child under a certain concept of what it means to be 'Manly', then, by all means, let them teach vigour, strength, courage, etc. Then you go on to complain about the image that the media projects to the children, a certain type of Masculinity- manly excellence, virtus as the Latins would call it. It is the part of the parents to teach the children to differentiate between reality and television- Alain Delon's Character in Le Samourai shoots random people, and is so cool, and what not, the parent is the one who tells them, no! don't go about acting like that, you'll seem socially stunted and killing people is plain wrong.

2. So, some airlines were arseholes- they are private companies, and you are paying them, if you don't like 'em, tough, withdraw your service, and move to a different company for your airline travel.

3. A person's failing is his own personal failing, not something inherent in the sex. If they are weak against pressure, it is ultimately the fault of their parent for not inoculating the virtue of Firmness. The lack of this quality is the fault of the parents, and not the fault of some societal discrimination. He choose his friends, he could still say no to them, he could tell them to respect his choice- cliche as that sounds, it is simple as what they taught you to do when someone offers your illegal narcotics in all those cheesy videos they made you watch throughout your school year, and is not a 'Male Issue', in fact, Male Issues are mostly non-issues.

4. So no argument here

5. A main criticism of this is that we are simply characterising scandelous behaviour in both sexes, only Females tend to be looked down upon worse than males
- sometime, men make it a point of pride about how 'piggish' they are, amongst themselves, and draw admirers based upon it.

6. No, rape was subsumed into generalities, not between men and women. Despite what you think, the rape of a man by womankind tend to be extremely rare, low, and, while not condonable, certainly not a giant issue- it should be swept underneath a general 'rape', and taken care of it in so fashion, just like woman who are raped by men, men who are raped by men, and woman who are raped by women (notice how the more common cases of rape involve a man, and his penis).

7. There is only imagined persecution, and people who want to jump the persecution train with real victims of persecution. They are staffed mostly by non-issues, and should not be taken seriously.[/quote]
1) The whole point is to shift public opinion, away from stereotypes of men being tough and emotionless. These stereotypes as they exist affect children. They aren't talking about forcing parents to raise children a certain way, they are talking about shifting public opinion to a more informed view.
2) The question was whether men were discriminated against. They are, you cannot deny that, and in fact you don't here, you just disregard it. What if this applied to women, but in terms of hiring "You can't work here because you are a woman" it's sexist discrimination, and should be banned.
3) The cause of it is irrelevant to its existence. Again, public opinion should be changed, and that is what the movement wants, your position is to basically say "Fuck them" to bullied children, because their parents didn't raise them to simply ignore it. Really?
5) "Females tend to be looked down upon worse than males" Source?
"men make it a point of pride about how 'piggish' they are, amongst themselves, and draw admirers based upon it."
Source? I actually know this point is bullshit, no one I have met does this so, do you have a source on all men doing it?
6) First, are you really not even going to acknowledge the basic sexism that was in U.S. law, where up until recently men couldn't be raped?
" Despite what you think, the rape of a man by womankind tend to be extremely rare, low," Where did I say it was high?
Besides, how often people are raped has nothing to do with how they are treated after being raped.
6.5) Never addressed the treatment of violence against males.
7) Well, in point '1' you basically disregarded the stereotyping of half the population because of some idea of it being "The parent's job" when that is irrelevant. Public opinion should still be swayed. In point '2' you disregarded sexist discrimination, because they're a private corporation and have a right to do that. (If you're a libertarian we might as well drop that, as our differing views of governmental involvement will never mesh) In point '3' you just talked about how again it was the parent's fault, and that somehow means we shouldn't do anything to help bullied children. Point '5' you made unsourced claims. Point '6' you shrugged off public opinion about male rape, and the legal side of it, for no other reason than to talk about how infrequent it is.
(I also have to sleep)

[New Socialist New Hampshire]

Ha ha, I never bothered, no. About your points:

(1)And there are no stereotypes of women? (2) What are they? James Bond, Superman?
(3))And yet the news goes ballistic every time a teachers screws a kid...
(4)How? At least men are chided for being virgins, gives them motivation, ha ha.
(5)And yet men still dominate the business world.
(6)Does this never happen to women who sleep with many men?
(7)Perhaps, but how often are men raped? Probably far less than women.

"I never bothered, no."
So, you ake a claim about the movement, while having never even read up on it.
1) "The main complaint in regards to feminism is their lack of activity on such issues." It's not that these issues are exclusive to men, it's that feminism doesn't adress the issues as they apply to men.
2) The idea of a "Manly man" does not express emotion, strong silent type being the best, do you really not see these?
3) Look at sentencing http://campbelllawobserver.com/2012/10/hot-for-teacher-gender-bias-in-sentencing-of-teachers-that-have-sex-with-their-students/
4) Men have been regularly mocked for being virgins by other students or co-workers. As for your second part, motivation to do what? Become people who use women solely for sex, rather than for relationships in order to gain social acceptance? (Of course, see "5" this only goes so far. They will be driven to simply fuck someone or a few people to gain socail acceptance, but eventually that fades away and becomes "5")
5) Because men are NOW faling behind. They have not ALWAYS fallen behind. Also, source for the majority of the employed people being male?
6) See point "1"
7) Completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter how often they are raped, it matters how they are treated once raped.

2) That stereotype died years ago.
3) Let me be a bit politically incorrect here. Can you really imagine that most schools boys who get it on with their teachers are kicking and screaming? Most of them are well into their teens anyway. One teacher was even caught because the students were bragging. Certainly, any teacher who rapes must be punished, though.
4) It's a joke, big deal. Has anyone been horribly disowned or slandered for it?
5) That's what happens when you control just about everything for, like, ever.

[New Socialist New Hampshire]

How? At least men are chided for being virgins, gives them motivation, ha ha.

No one, male or female, should be pressured to lose their virginity (or to keep it).

Why not, about losing it?

[Trotskylvania]

This - particularly the vice versa part - is not especially accurate and enables female pedophiles, but that's the way it is, and feminists helped stir up pedophile panic in the first place.

Source?

When men now make up a diminishing minority of higher education students, drop out from high school in much larger numbers, and in fact are actively falling behind at every level from elementary school to doctoral degrees, feminists don't feel the need to resolve that issue. They do, however, feel the need to work to increase the number of women in physics, math, computer, etc related fields of study, while not lifting a hand to increase the number of men in education, nursing, et cetera.

Irrespective of whether or not feminists ignore these issues, why should feminist political organizations take up the banner of a cause that for a group of people who tend to not only have little sympathy with their struggle, but also tend to mobilize to oppose feminism and feminist goals increasingly. Sorry TJ, but a little give and take is necessary here. If men and mens rights activists want feminists to abandon the siege mentality, then they need to dismantle the siege towers.

On the net balance, yes. Some feminists acknowledge it on paper, others fight vigorously against male victims taking funding and support destined for female victims, and a large coalition of feminist organizations backed an entirely new yet still horribly sexist definition of rape that excludes the vast majority of male victims and the vast majority of female perpetrators.

Sources and statistics on this. Who, when and where. How large are these organizations, and how many of them supposedly backed a new, sexist definition of rape, or male victims taking the limited resources allocated for female victims.

Some feminists have acknowledged that women are getting off light in the criminal justice system [notably, some first-wave feminists] but a number actually actively work against women receiving prison sentences at all.

Who are these feminists? Given that many feminists are leftists, and tend to support prison abolitionism of varying degrees, I have a hard time believing that any significant number of feminists think that women alone should get these benefits.

Principally, economic objects.

This is more of a class issue than a gender issue, since it tends to be reciprocal. People tend to marry those of like status, and are often shunned particularly if they try to marry up.

No, it most certainly is not.

I see whole lot more women getting called sluts for behavior that is considered perfectly acceptable, if not laudatory, for men to do then the opposite.

Very slowly. And not because of action by feminists.

Being a nurse started being economically lucrative. Who knew more people, male and female, would want to be nurses? At the same time, you cannot ignore that it was the feminist movement that argued, quite strongly, that work shouldn't be gendered, and that there shouldn't be "female" work (changing bed pans) and "male" work (taking in the big bucks and prestige as a doctor).

NOW regularly conflates fathers gaining custody more often with abusers gaining custody more often.

Sources.

Given the asymmetry strictly benefits women, this is an issue of female privilege and male disadvantage. Feminists have not lifted a finger to change the asymmetry.

Hardly. Women are still still socially expected to be the caring and nurturing ones, whether they want to or are even capable of it. Men can still be aloof and distant to their children even if they are involved in childrearing, behavior that is blamed in moral panic as a cause for autism in kids when women do it. It is still considered "selfish" for a woman to not want to have children, or to want to have a career as a mother. No one asks fathers to choose between being a father and having a career.

Feminism is as strong as it ever has been, as a political force.

And if you believe that, I have some nice beach front property in Arizona for you.

[Tahar Joblis]

As noted before, the "last 12 months" and "in your life" ratios are radically different for men and women.

Other Sexual Violence (because it appears in significant quantities for both):

.	Men	Women
In the last year	5.3	5.6
In your lifetime	22.2	44.6
Ratio	4.2	8.0

BOTH ratios are implausibly low. The results are weighted by age to the national adult demographic (older people responded more and were given less weight, younger people responded less and were given more, see appendix B ... after weighting, the median respondent is over 45 because the median adult is). So are we to believe that of all adult women who have experienced sexual violence, one in eight experienced it within the last year? And among men who have experienced it at some time in life, one in four experienced it within the last year?

People forget.

Yes, even traumatic events. Especially if they are not often called upon to rehearse and recall those events.

A man who is raped is told to shut up.

One possible explanation is that only respondents 18 and over are eligible to participate. "In your lifetime" includes before that so sexual assault of children and teens could bump up female "lifetime" reports, either because it happens more to girls or that they acknowledge (and remember) it more.

That can account for a small amount of the difference. Read the CDC report in detail, it talks about victimization as a child. However, it cannot account for most of the difference.

Another possible explanation is that people who were victimized within the last year are more likely to participate in the survey. The acceptance rate is rather low (unsurprisingly given the subject ... the CDC actually offered a cash incentive to participate which seems rather desperate and liable to promote some fatuous answers, may also have biased the sample towards low income people which is a factor they DIDN'T weigh by).

And some victims would have been victimized more than once. But what explains the difference between men and women in this?

I don't give much weight to the idea that there is an epidemic of sexual harassment and assault of men (that it's essentially doubled in 4 or 8 years). Rather, I see increased awareness BY men that they can be victims. Old memories of being coerced into sex aren't remembered that way if at the time the man was laughed at for telling anyone about it: at least sometimes they write the memories to conform to what is expected rather than what actually happened (eg, by blaming themselves for being too drunk that night rather than blaming the woman who took advantage of that). Memories aren't perfect, they're stories which change a bit every time we tell them to ourselves.

Recently increased awareness by men would mean that men are getting raped; and hence ... well, I'm agreeing with you. This is what most of the difference comes from.

Anyway, you can look at results from the last year and say that men are just as much victims of "rape" (broad sense) as women are, or you can look at lifetime results and say that women are twice as likely to be victims. Or you can look at both and say it's a massive disparity and thus very weak evidence overall.

Twice as likely would still be dramatically closer than most people expect or accept. RAINN, for example, claims that women are nine times as likely to be victimized. It also claims that male victims of rape are principally victims of other men; which is something that the CDC figures clearly contradict when we use a non-sexist definition of rape.

There is a huge difference between nine times as much and double; and a huge difference between claiming men who are raped are mainly raped by other men [standard feminist claim], and that men who are raped are mainly raped by women [reality when we use a non-sexist definition of rape and scientific studies instead of reported crime statistics and sexist definitions].

I have said this before and will doubtless say it again: Once you make any real effort to control for social biases, e.g., by asking people very specific behavioral questions rather than asking "Were you raped / abused / etc," the rates of victimization and perpetration of all manner of intimate partner offenses, from rape to abuse, tend not to have gendered ratios exceeding two to one.

I've linked to this paper before. It's very detailed; the only flaw is that it involves a much smaller sample size. It tells essentially the same story: There are some gendered patterns in behavior, but men and women are not that different except in raw physical capability and social power.

[Euronion]

No one, male or female, should be pressured to lose their virginity (or to keep it).

Why not, about losing it?

because sex is a way to very effectively transmit disease from one partner to the other, some of them are incurable, some can cause death. Pregnancy is also a risk even with contraception. Just because you prefer more sex and I prefer more sex does not mean it is wise nor beneficial to the overall public health and safety. That, however, is a debate for another thread at another time.

[Tahar Joblis]

Source?

I've linked to this before.

Irrespective of whether or not feminists ignore these issues

Which, collectively, the movement does; some individual feminists do not, some individual feminists are busy making things worse.

, why should feminist political organizations take up the banner of a cause that for a group of people who tend to not only have little sympathy with their struggle, but also tend to mobilize to oppose feminism and feminist goals increasingly.

We are speaking of all men as a class here.

You are therefore saying that men as a class have little sympathy for feminism and mobilize to oppose feminism and feminist goals increasingly.

You are also asking why feminism should help men when men are discriminated against. The answer has already been given in this thread: Because feminism, theoretically, has a mandate to achieve gender equity.

If this is indeed the goal of the movement, then the movement has an obligation to work on such issues.

Sources and statistics on this. Who, when and where. How large are these organizations, and how many of them supposedly backed a new, sexist definition of rape,

Ms. Magazine. As cited therein, Feminist Majority Foundation, Ms. Magazine, and Women's Law Project all were working very directly to install that particular new definition, and the adoption of the new definition met with widespread approval among the movement.

The new definition was, in other words, drafted by feminist organizations, lobbied for by feminist organizations, and celebrated by feminist organizations, and yet, by that new definition, a man subjected to non-consensual vaginal sex remained "not a rape victim."

or male victims taking the limited resources allocated for female victims.

Source.

Who are these feminists? Given that many feminists are leftists, and tend to support prison abolitionism of varying degrees, I have a hard time believing that any significant number of feminists think that women alone should get these benefits.

1. 2. 3. You tell me what kind of feminists these are, but you'll notice that they're only talking about women in prison as if prison is somehow a vile plot to keep women down.

This is more of a class issue than a gender issue, since it tends to be reciprocal.

No, it doesn't. And that's where it becomes a gender issue.

I see whole lot more women getting called sluts for behavior that is considered perfectly acceptable, if not laudatory, for men to do then the opposite.

Confirmation bias.

Being a nurse started being economically lucrative.

Not all that dramatically. Being a nurse started to require higher levels of qualification and longer periods of training as the income crept up.

The typical salary of an elementary school teacher climbed a similar amount, during the eighties, as the number of men in teaching dropped like a rock.

What's happened with being a nurse is that discrimination became illegal, men started breaking into the field against the resistance that was there, Scrubs hit the TV market, et cetera.

Nursing is still, incidentally, overwhelmingly female. It's hard to crack into a field dominated that heavily by a single gender; it requires the sort of programs that we have had to bring women into STEM fields. Without those programs, I firmly believe progress of women into STEM fields would be much slower.

Without those programs, men have slowly slid away from education under pressure from pedophile panic; and have only very slowly forced their way into nursing programs. It's not easy; but once you get rolling, it becomes easier to change. E.g., studies of physics departments have shown that having female faculty willing to mentor students greatly increases retention of female majors; as in an overwhelmingly male field, it's easy for female students to feel isolated.

Who knew more people, male and female, would want to be nurses? At the same time, you cannot ignore that it was the feminist movement that argued, quite strongly, that work shouldn't be gendered, and that there shouldn't be "female" work (changing bed pans) and "male" work (taking in the big bucks and prestige as a doctor).

The feminist movement so argued; and then completely failed to do anything other than attempt to push women into high prestige "male" jobs, ignoring low prestige "male" jobs as well as all "female" jobs.

This failure needs to be remedied; within or without the movement. You, of course, would have me believe that the feminist movement has no interest in doing so; which demonstrates the need for something other than the feminist movement in order to complete the feminist movement's stated goals.

Hardly. Women are still still socially expected to be the caring and nurturing ones, whether they want to or are even capable of it. Men can still be aloof and distant to their children even if they are involved in childrearing, behavior that is blamed in moral panic as a cause for autism in kids when women do it. It is still considered "selfish" for a woman to not want to have children, or to want to have a career as a mother. No one asks fathers to choose between being a father and having a career.

Men still get serious backlash when they attempt to step into a caring and nuturing role.

Women are considered "selfish" for not having children no more than men are considered "irresponsible" for not getting married.

I have not, actually, seen a woman criticized for being too aloof and distant to their children; and anyone caught shaming a woman for pursuing a career will get flamed heavily by feminists.

And if you believe that, I have some nice beach front property in Arizona for you.

Check the last season's election returns. No, seriously.

Feminism is a powerful and organized political force, much like the gun lobby. Certainly more organized than religious conservatives these days, who are struggling over control of levers within the Republican party; and perhaps the strongest of the interest groups that the Democratic party relies on to mobilize voters, now that unions are pretty damn near dead.

Just because feminists aren't marching in the streets doesn't mean that feminist organizations don't have a serious impact on the course of events. Feminists are part of the establishment now. Not all feminists are; but the feminist movement certainly is, now.

[Bottle]

Right, I'm not against feminists anyway. I'm rather liberal, but there are very likely to be areas where my liberalism fails.

Sure. I'm a very liberal progressive guy. I'm strongly against sexism, racism, and homophobia.

But if I'm walking alone at night and a see a group of young men coming my way, I feel more comfortable if they're white than if they're black. And this is true even in my neighborhood, where a black youth is more likely to be a Harvard grad student than a gang banger.

Is it racist? Yeah, kinda.

Does it make ME racist? Yeah, kinda.

I don't like that about me. I'm not happy that instinct exists. It's more the product of spending time in cities where it just was statistically more likely to be assaulted by a black male than a white one than any inbuilt distruct of black people, but there it is.

The thing is I at least recognize that it exists, and don't let it guide how I interact with people, at least, to the extent that I can.

*taps nose*

I completely understand why a lot of dudes bristle at the idea that they are sexist sometimes. I reacted the same way when I was confronted with some of my own racist thoughts and words. Because I'm not REALLY a racist, see? I don't actually believe I'm right for having these biases or reactions, and I look down on people who try to justify the very thoughts/feelings that I know I sometimes reflexively experience. But...I still mess up sometimes. I still am impacted by my culture. I am not immune to all the racist soup we swim in daily.

Being a good person, and a good ally for marginalized groups, isn't about being perfect. It's about recognizing that you're not, and having the gonads to admit that up-front, and apologize when you fuck up from time to time.

[Bottle]

There are still issues that need to be addressed. Though I feel they all fall under the umbrella of feminism, personally, since feminism is about equal rights and treatment for the sexes.

I prefer the umbrella term of Humanism myself. The very word Feminism or Feminist implies a concern for female issues not men.

HuMANism implies a concern for male issues and not women! ZOMG!

[Neo Art]

I prefer the umbrella term of Humanism myself. The very word Feminism or Feminist implies a concern for female issues not men.

HuMANism implies a concern for male issues and not women! ZOMG!

I like this, I'm going to steal it.

[Bottle]

You know what? How about we just have respect for people in general and rights movements will be irrelevant?

Who the fuck are you talking to with this "we" bullshit?

Feminists like me have spend literally generations fighting, tooth and nail, to get access to basic civil and human rights. Quite clearly, "we" cannot "just have respect," otherwise we would have had to spend some many lifetimes just trying to be allowed to fucking vote and shit.

It's great that you're so privileged that you've never had to fight any of these battles, but not all of us are as spoiled as you, so if you can't be bothered to do something constructive then you probably should shut the fuck up and listen. You might learn something.

[Ostroeuropa]

I prefer the umbrella term of Humanism myself. The very word Feminism or Feminist implies a concern for female issues not men.

HuMANism implies a concern for male issues and not women! ZOMG!

*sigh*
all of us are humans.
Not all of us are female or feminine.
So it's a false equivalency.


I explained this posistion here.

I take the view that this will naturally form a syncretic movement and the big fight will be between the Gender Equalists
(Who take the view that feminism as a term is sexist and focuses the problem on one sex. Before you complain, remember it was feminist thinkers who began the G. Abolitionist movement in eutero by deciding that terms like policeman and fireman need to be neutralized in favor of gender neutral words) G. Equalists are precisely what you'd expect, equal rights for the genders and sexes, and the Gender Abolitionists, who regard the only difference between men and women as being genital in nature, and the entire idea of femininity and masculinity need to be discarded, as well as all discrimination based on those grounds or on the grounds of genitals.
The mens rights movement falls under the same problems that feminism does, but if you look at it from the typical
Reform - Counter Reform - Syncretic
Evolution of ideas, it's a welcome movement.


I'm an abolitionist for the record. I view the idea of femininity and masculinity to be as absurd as race divides. We'd look at someone incredibly oddly if they said "That's very asian of you to act that way." and that's precisely how I view these terms, as completely meaningless and offensive categories that promote division and labeling.
Someone could be a weight lifting belching neat freak who obsesses over their personal appearance and drinks with their pinkie lifted.
In fact the very fact that most people have traits from either side of this divide (Except people who are frankly intolerable) demonstrates quite clearly that as terms they are flawed and do nothing but to promote stereotypes and discrimination.
I also support the introduction of a gender neutral pronoun.
This may be regarded as "extreme" by gender equalists, but I maintain that eventually we'll move to this position. With the term gender equalist or gender egalitarian and gender abolitionist, we'll also see that it becomes much harder to use a term like "Feminism" or "Mens rights" to provide a cover (and large audience.) for sexism masquerading as egalitarianism.

[Bottle]

HuMANism implies a concern for male issues and not women! ZOMG!

*sigh*
all of us are humans.
Not all of us are female or feminine.
So it's a false equivalency.

*Swoosh*

Wow, that point cleared the top of the head with inches to spare...lookit it go...

[Neo Art]

HuMANism implies a concern for male issues and not women! ZOMG!

*sigh*
all of us are humans.
Not all of us are female or feminine.
So it's a false equivalency.

That sound you hear is the point wizzing by waaaaaay over your head.

Edit: fucking femininjas

[Ostroeuropa]

No, I understood you were trying to be funny. But it's explained why your point doesn't apply. Whereas feminism really is a discriminatory term, Humanism isn't. Whereas if you were just making a joke, then you didn't address his point at all and are only agreeing with him despite then calling yourself a feminist, which is an implicit endorsement of sexism.

[Tahar Joblis]

I prefer the umbrella term of Humanism myself. The very word Feminism or Feminist implies a concern for female issues not men.

HuMANism implies a concern for male issues and not women! ZOMG!

WoMEN implies that such people are simply modified males! ZOMG! /originoftheneologismWOMYN

...

Seriously, Bottle, you should know that humanism, as a term, is already taken. Repeatedly. As should Genivaria. If not, there you go.

FWIW, folks, if what you want is a word that says "equal treatment," and don't want the baggage of "feminism," the word "egalitarian" is a nice one, and can be applied to things other than gender.

*taps nose*

I completely understand why a lot of dudes bristle at the idea that they are sexist sometimes. I reacted the same way when I was confronted with some of my own racist thoughts and words. Because I'm not REALLY a racist, see? I don't actually believe I'm right for having these biases or reactions, and I look down on people who try to justify the very thoughts/feelings that I know I sometimes reflexively experience. But...I still mess up sometimes. I still am impacted by my culture. I am not immune to all the racist soup we swim in daily.

Being a good person, and a good ally for marginalized groups, isn't about being perfect. It's about recognizing that you're not, and having the gonads to admit that up-front, and apologize when you fuck up from time to time.

Now. More seriously. What I see from a lot of men and women confronted with evidence of their misandry is this bristling at the idea that they are sexist sometimes.

Sexism is very much a two way street. Well, four-way intersection, there are misandrist men and misogynist women and all kinds of screwballs making left turns on red while pedestrians and unicyclists are dodging through the soup.

Ninety percent of the time I hear a young white twentysomething American woman tell someone to "check your privilege," she blithely demonstrated, before or after, that she is bloody well not aware of the privileges she has. And the difference between her and me is that I really do know about all of my privileges; while she's ignoring the ones she gets for being female, I've been critiquing and examining my male privileges for years.

I know my biases intimately; my foibles; my unfair advantages and unfair disadvantages. I know when I fuck up, and when I'm responding to group stereotypes as much as the individual. It happens. And do you know what gets me touchy?

It's not people complaining about my privileges. Someone points out an unfair advantage I have, I'm cool with that. I'll even try to make it right if I can do so without upsetting too many applecarts and getting backlash down on you. Someone points out I'm being unfair myself, I don't get upset at them, but myself; and I try to fix it. What gets me up and bothered? Someone else denying that the deck's rigged in their favor after I've pointed at the aces spilling out of their cuffs.

And that is what bothers me about all this talk about "privileged classes," "marginalized groups," and shit like that. Because too many are being pretty willfully blind to clear privileges that women do have. The one-eyed kings and queens among those many have sighted it, but have decided to call it "benevolent sexism" and claim that these are actually super secret instances of male privilege.