Is there a men's rights movement now afoot?

[Blouman Empire]

Personally I understand guys being pissed off at many of the stereotypes they run into in some places, most certainly in service industries. For example, I was unable to get a job at a bank as a teller, I had the qualifications, but discover a month later I was passed over for an all female staff.
7 girls to work up front.

I don't think they were biased, but my gut reaction was being angry that they only hired older ladies (40+) and young girls (20-) because they made people feel "safe" when handling money.

I know better, but how do you think guys react when you now work at a gas station earning $8.25 per hour, and lady less qualified beat you out for a $12 per hour with benefits because she has a more friendly face & voice?

You deserve that, you're a man and it doesn't really matter if you're not given a job because of your gender. It only matters if it is female.

[New Socialist New Hampshire]

The only right this movement would ensure would be the right to oppress women...again...and more.

[Seriong]

The only right this movement would ensure would be the right to oppress women...again...and more.

Tell me, have you looked into this movement? At all? I can tell you some of their main points include:
The stereotypes of men pushed onto children
The personification of men as pedophiles/sex crazed fiends
The virgin shaming of men
The falling behind of boys in school systems
The demonization of men who sleep with multiple women, "He's such a pig!"
The rape shame/Lack of acknowledging that men can be raped

The main complaint in regards to feminism is their lack of activity on such issues. What here is going to oppress women?

[New Socialist New Hampshire]

The only right this movement would ensure would be the right to oppress women...again...and more.

Tell me, have you looked into this movement? At all? I can tell you some of their main points include:
The stereotypes of men pushed onto children
The personification of men as pedophiles/sex crazed fiends
The virgin shaming of men
The falling behind of boys in school systems
The demonization of men who sleep with multiple women, "He's such a pig!"
The rape shame/Lack of acknowledging that men can be raped

The main complaint in regards to feminism is their lack of activity on such issues. What here is going to oppress women?

Ha ha, I never bothered, no. About your points:

And there are no stereotypes of women? What are they? James Bond, Superman?
And yet the news goes ballistic every time a teachers screws a kid...
How? At least men are chided for being virgins, gives them motivation, ha ha.
And yet men still dominate the business world.
Does this never happen to women who sleep with many men?
Perhaps, but how often are men raped? Probably far less than women.

[Galloism]

In answer as to how I use rape that's different from the CDC, I include nonconsenting envelopment of the penis as rape. The CDC doesn't. That means, Neo, if you were kidnapped at gunpoint by an ex girlfriend and ridden like it was the end of the world while her friend held the gun, they took a video of it, and sent it to CNN and the CDC, you were not raped according to the CdC. That was "other sexual violence". I call it rape.

Also, how do you figure that 1.2 million of such "made to penetrate" incidents in a single year are a small subset of rapes committed against men, who reported 1.6 million penetrative rapes in a lifetime?

OK sure, I agree with your definition, and will include "forced penetration" into the definition of rape.

OK, got it, I did the math here. Tables 2.1 and 2.2. Let us define rape as all forms of rape defined by the CDC (completed forced penetration, attempted forced penetration, and completed alcohol/drug facilitated penetration) and include “made to penetrate” which the CDC defines as “other sexual violence”. This is what Gallo defines as the “nonsexist definition of rape” which I am inclined to agree with.

Let us leave as “not rape” the areas of sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, and define those, as the CDC does, as “other sexual violence”.

Let’s plug in numbers. Let’s go with lifetime figures, as the 12 month figures are too bare. OK, let’s plug it in.

21.84 million women will be raped as the CDC defines it. “made to penetrate” rapes are unreported, so let’s go with that. 21.8 million women in America will be raped within their lifetimes. As the CDC defines rape. According to the section below Figure 2.1, 98.1% of women who are raped will be raped by a man only

That’s 21.42 million women raped by men.

OK then. Let’s move to men.

1.581 million men will be raped by the CDC definition, within their lifetime.

5.451 million men will be made to penetrate an individual within their lifetime.

Let’s call those both rape, I agree with you. Let’s do the math.

6.3% of male rape victims (as the CDC defines rape) are raped by women only, or women and men (no figures of purely men). Fine, 6.3% of 1.581 million is a hair under 100,000 so let’s go with that. 100,000 men will be raped, by the CDC definition, by a woman.

79.2% of men being raped (by our expanded definition) via being made to penetrate was committed by women. 5.451 million in their lifetime.

Total figure of that? 4.31 million.

So let’s add up. 100,000 men raped by women using the strict definition, and another 4.31 million men raped by women using the expanded definition gives us…4.41 million men raped by women within their lifetime, in the united states.

Applying that figure to women (and admitting that there’s no data for the “expanded definition” criteria, and we’re assuming that the number of women forced to penetrate is 0) and using only the limited and restricted definition of rape we get 21.42 million women who will be raped by a man in her lifetime.

So there’s our figures, that’s the ACTUAL MATH. The real, hard data.

21.42 million women will be raped by a man, using only the CDC’s strict definition.
4.31 million men will be raped by a woman, using Gallo’s expanded definition.

There’s the actual figure.

So, here we go, with twelve month numbers.

We start by determining an approximate number of men subject to penetrative rape in a given year. One of the major factors in whether "80% of men are raped by women" is approximately true is whether or not the penetrative rape by men significantly throws that number. If we assume that male and female rapists are similar (which isn't probably too bad of an assumption to make), we realize that of the 21,840,000 women victimized in the lifetime of females, 1,270,000 of those were victimized in the year in question. This gives us a factor of 0.058 (rounded) of the lifetime victims were victimized in the year in question.

For men, the number of penetrative rapes reported in a lifetime is 1,581,000. Applying the same factor, 0.058 (rounded) to that figure nets us 91,698 male penetrative rape victims in the given year. 93.3% of those were by a male. That's 85,554 male perpetrators, and 6,144 female perpetrators.

Of the made to penetrate column, there were 1,267,000 made to penetrate rape victims. 79.2% were by women. That means 1,003,464 of the perpetrators were women, leaving 263,536 as men.

Adding the made to penetrate column with the interpolated forcible penetration column, we see that, in the given year, approximately 1,358,698 male victims were penetrated or made to penetrate in the given year. Of those, 6,144 + 1,003,474 were female perpetrators, or 1,009,618. If you divide that out, you wind up with 74.3% (rounded) of perpetrators of rape against men were female.

So I was 5.7% off, in fact. I will correct that to 75% in the future, because I round. My apologies.

Now, regarding the 40% column.

Approximately 1,358,698 victims of rape per year are male, while 1,270,000 were female. That means of the total estimated rape victims in the given year, 2,628,698, 51.7% (rounded) were of males, while 48.3% were of females.

98.1% of the female column reported male perpetrators. Of the 1,270,000 rape victims in the given year, 1,245,870 were raped by men. That leaves 24,130 by women.

So, the female-on-male rape column now has 1,009,618, and the female on female column has 24,130. That's a total of 1,033,748 victims victimized by female perpetrators in the given year.

On the male on male column, we have 349,090 victimized by other men. In the male on female column, we have 1,245,870. If you add those together, you wind up with 1,594,960 victims taken by men. Note, this does not take into account serial rapists and the like.

So, you have a total number of victims of 2,628,698 in the given year, of which 39.3% (rounded) are victimized by a female and 60.7% are victimized by a male.

So, in the given dataset, I was 5.7% off on one of my numbers, and 0.7% off on the other one, but that one doesn't count because I round.

My apologies for the 5%. I will use 75% in the future.

EDIT: Corrected a sentence where I accidentally used "rapes" instead of "rape victims", even though that's what I meant. If I didn't do it, Neo Art would jump down my throat.

[Galloism]

I will provide you with a similar calculation when I get to sit down this evening with time and a spreadsheet program, but with twelve month numbers.

That would be good.

Done and done.

However, you must accept that either rapes against men are currently at levels similar to women, in which case Ail's original statement to the effect that rape is a problem because he's a man is demonstrably sexist and false, or that there is a systemic pattern of repeat victimization, which means male rape victims need extra counseling/advice/help to avoid repeating the pattern.

In any case, marginalizing and failing to recognize male rape victims, as Ail did, is sexist and wrong.

The context in which I did it was PERSONAL. I explained (I thought) that my own circumstances and life choices make me less likely than other men to suffer rape (by any definition). But I'm guessing you stopped reading somewhere in the second paragraph and decided I was sexist and wrong.

Be careful how you interpret that CDC study in future.

You and Tahar Joblis both try to use it to create a false equivalence ... that men are just as likely to be raped by women as women are by men ... that it simply does not support.

Neo Art found about 5:1 disparity, or to put it another way 17% of rapes (wide definition) are of men while the remainder are of women. There is just no way of spinning that as "just as likely".

Actually, NA used raw numbers and right up front in the report we see that there were fewer male respondents to the interviews than female.

(I agree with you AND Neo Art that "forced to penetrate" should be included in rape figures, CDC for some reason keeping to a legal definition in which only men can rape. I think we all agree that the legal definition SHOULD be gender neutral.)

Actually, in all likelihood, in the current climate, men are probably slightly more likely to become a rape victim than women. However, prison rape probably throws the numbers.

It's so statistically close, however, it would be hard to say that with any certainty.

[The Gaelic Kingdoms of Britain]

You know what? How about we just have respect for people in general and rights movements will be irrelevant?

[The Black Forrest]

So. Am I imagining this? Or has there been a fairly dramatic change in the last couple of years? Is the issue of addressing male disadvantages and anti-male discrimination coming to a sudden maturity?

Nah, I'm certain the "men's rights" movement is still chock-full of immaturity.

Indeed.

[Seriong]

Tell me, have you looked into this movement? At all? I can tell you some of their main points include:
The stereotypes of men pushed onto children
The personification of men as pedophiles/sex crazed fiends
The virgin shaming of men
The falling behind of boys in school systems
The demonization of men who sleep with multiple women, "He's such a pig!"
The rape shame/Lack of acknowledging that men can be raped

The main complaint in regards to feminism is their lack of activity on such issues. What here is going to oppress women?

Ha ha, I never bothered, no. About your points:

(1)And there are no stereotypes of women? (2) What are they? James Bond, Superman?
(3))And yet the news goes ballistic every time a teachers screws a kid...
(4)How? At least men are chided for being virgins, gives them motivation, ha ha.
(5)And yet men still dominate the business world.
(6)Does this never happen to women who sleep with many men?
(7)Perhaps, but how often are men raped? Probably far less than women.

"I never bothered, no."
So, you ake a claim about the movement, while having never even read up on it.
1) "The main complaint in regards to feminism is their lack of activity on such issues." It's not that these issues are exclusive to men, it's that feminism doesn't adress the issues as they apply to men.
2) The idea of a "Manly man" does not express emotion, strong silent type being the best, do you really not see these?
3) Look at sentencing http://campbelllawobserver.com/2012/10/hot-for-teacher-gender-bias-in-sentencing-of-teachers-that-have-sex-with-their-students/
4) Men have been regularly mocked for being virgins by other students or co-workers. As for your second part, motivation to do what? Become people who use women solely for sex, rather than for relationships in order to gain social acceptance? (Of course, see "5" this only goes so far. They will be driven to simply fuck someone or a few people to gain socail acceptance, but eventually that fades away and becomes "5")
5) Because men are NOW faling behind. They have not ALWAYS fallen behind. Also, source for the majority of the employed people being male?
6) See point "1"
7) Completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter how often they are raped, it matters how they are treated once raped.

[Blouman Empire]

Ha ha, I never bothered, no. About your points:

And there are no stereotypes of women? What are they? James Bond, Superman?

So that makes it alright then?

And yet the news goes ballistic every time a teachers screws a kid...

And your point?

How? At least men are chided for being virgins, gives them motivation, ha ha.

It's that sort of bigotted response that they want to stop

And yet men still dominate the business world.

People don't walk out of school today and become directors of Top 50 companies.

Does this never happen to women who sleep with many men?

So it makes it alright?

Perhaps, but how often are men raped? Probably far less than women.

Which makes it alright I suppose, plus men love sex they probably enjoyed it? Correct?

[AiliailiA]

That would be good.

Done and done.

OK. I'm not sure if you noticed this:

Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.

So the CDC's definition includes attempted being-made-to-penetrate, and the corresponding figures for women should include attempted being-penetrated.

[Galloism]

Done and done.

OK. I'm not sure if you noticed this:

Among men, being made to penetrate someone else could have occurred in multiple ways: being made to vaginally penetrate a female using one’s own penis; orally penetrating a female’s vagina or anus; anally penetrating a male or female; or being made to receive oral sex from a male or female. It also includes female perpetrators attempting to force male victims to penetrate them, though it did not happen.

So the CDC's definition includes attempted being-made-to-penetrate, and the corresponding figures for women should include attempted being-penetrated.

It does.

Check out the table on page 18. I included attempted forced penetration in the category of rape for women.

[Hatsunia]

How? At least men are chided for being virgins, gives them motivation, ha ha.

No one, male or female, should be pressured to lose their virginity (or to keep it).

[Warinemachine]

Tell me, have you looked into this movement? At all? I can tell you some of their main points include:
The stereotypes of men pushed onto children
The personification of men as pedophiles/sex crazed fiends
The virgin shaming of men
The falling behind of boys in school systems
The demonization of men who sleep with multiple women, "He's such a pig!"
The rape shame/Lack of acknowledging that men can be raped

The main complaint in regards to feminism is their lack of activity on such issues. What here is going to oppress women?

Ha ha, I never bothered, no. About your points:

And there are no stereotypes of women? What are they? James Bond, Superman?
And yet the news goes ballistic every time a teachers screws a kid...
How? At least men are chided for being virgins, gives them motivation, ha ha.
And yet men still dominate the business world.
Does this never happen to women who sleep with many men?
Perhaps, but how often are men raped? Probably far less than women.

We dominate the bussiness world because we have more initiative

[New Sapienta]

Ha ha, I never bothered, no. About your points:

And there are no stereotypes of women? What are they? James Bond, Superman?
And yet the news goes ballistic every time a teachers screws a kid...
How? At least men are chided for being virgins, gives them motivation, ha ha.
And yet men still dominate the business world.
Does this never happen to women who sleep with many men?
Perhaps, but how often are men raped? Probably far less than women.

We dominate the bussiness world because we have more initiative

You see, we(they) were doing so good before you had to say that.

[Warinemachine]

Sorry.

[New Sapienta]

Sorry.

Just....refrain from making sexist comments in the future.

[Romalae]

You know what? How about we just have respect for people in general and rights movements will be irrelevant?

Good luck. As long as people remain to see people under divisions such as class, race, ethnicity, and gender, little will change.

[United Islands of the Pacific]

Unless femenism goes to an extreme level, and females become a dominant gender, there isn't any need for one. I wonder why we just don't give women and men equal rights immediately. Are they concerned that women would still be holding a grudge from back when they had no rights? The US is no problem with giving women rights (a woman can be president, they just never run for president, and some feminists believe that they can't become president), some Middle East countries have issues with it. I'm not a feminist, I don't like them. They act like men are bad people.

[Euronion]

I don't buy that for an instant.

Male elementary school teachers.
Pedophile panic.
Boys falling behind in the educational system; men falling behind in college and graduate school.
Sentencing bias as visible as the black-white bias.
Refusal to recognize male victims of domestic violence and rape, in particular when such happens at the hands of women.
Male disposability.
Treatment of men as success objects.
Demonization of male sexuality.
Persistent virgin-shaming of men.
New slut-shaming of men.
Male nurses.
Discrimination against men in custody disputes.
Gendered asymmetry in the assignment of parental rights and obligations.

Buy it in another two years, if you prefer to take that long. Where progress has been made on these issues, it has not been because of feminism; certainly not directly, and not in a fashion we can describe as non-controversial. E.g., Warren Farrell has done much to advance awareness of the success object problem; he is very clearly inspired by feminism. It is, however, rather difficult to describe his activity as activity by the feminist movement; and that is as close as the feminist movement gets to addressing issues of male disadvantage and female privilege.

well do not forget about insurance rates. Males, especially teenage males, cost more to insure than Females, why? it is assumed that merely because you are a teenage boy, you are going to be in more car accidents than a Teenage Girl based merely upon your gender.

[Euronion]

Unless femenism goes to an extreme level, and females become a dominant gender, there isn't any need for one. I wonder why we just don't give women and men equal rights immediately. Are they concerned that women would still be holding a grudge from back when they had no rights? The US is no problem with giving women rights (a woman can be president, they just never run for president, and some feminists believe that they can't become president), some Middle East countries have issues with it. I'm not a feminist, I don't like them. They act like men are bad people.

I completely disagree. Women face discrimination in today's society and so do men. I'm more inclined to say that men face more discrimination in today's society than women. I do not mean to make a generalization of all women, but in my area with all the young women I have met, a lot of them try to use their good looks to take advantage of men. I was once a "victim" of it (I use victim in quotations because I didn't necessarily bother me at the time) she asked me for my homework (I believe it was math) and I said no, she then proceeded to give me this look, speak in a softer voice, place her hand on mine, and in front of others asked me for my math homework and enunciated the "please." I had two choices here, either I could give her the homework and she would take it and copy it or I could deny her it not only would I look like a jack-ass in public but others would have questioned my sexual orientation or at the very least my masculinity for refusing to give her my homework.

This attitude also extends to female rape of men. Everyone assumes that because some old hag had sex with her male teenager student that she should get off easier because he is not a victim at all, he enjoyed it and she should not be punished for that, he was probably trying to get in her pants. Insurance rates right off the bat are higher for boys than girls simply on the basis of gender.

Men are teased and looked down upon for being virgins, yet when they seek sex they are looked down upon as perverts. As a hopeless romantic and the stereotypical "nice guy" and a nerd I am constantly told by women I know and women on the internet that I "should not change" for I am, as one girl put it "a diamond in the ruff," however I am not egotistical enough to believe that, yet girls constantly go for "bad boys," society sets it as a rule that "nice guys" are all virgins and cowards and therefore women will not date them, yet then they demonize these "bad boys" so either way if you are a virgin or not, nice guy or bad boy, you are looked down upon by society. Male and a virgin? seen as pathetic, haven't had a girlfriend by 16? seen as pathetic, has had sex with several women? you're a man whore, have had too many girlfriends? you're a man whore. In the issue of teenage pregnancy, it is ALWAYS blamed on the boy, it is ALWAYS the fault of the man if a woman gets pregnant and I do not mean by not putting a condom on or something, I mean that teenage girls are always looked at as victims and teenage boys are always looked at as criminals for getting a girl pregnant. My own mother once said that she thinks that if teenage boys get a girl pregnant than it is his fault and he should pay in the form of money and possibly even castration. There are movies and TV shows all the time constantly applauding and supporting the idea that all men are assholes, it is encouraged and acceptable in society. Then when we complain we get told to just suck it up "well you have more political and economic power than women so you have nothing to complain about" erm, excuse me? please tell me the connection that I have to Justin Beiber, please tell me the connection that I have to One Direction, please tell me the connection I have to any rich or powerful person out there and then ask yourself if every man/boy is rich and powerful. The answer is no, so while yes, the President is a man, the governor of my state is a man, I am neither governor nor President. You cannot say that because a small minority of my gender possess power that it somehow empowers all men everywhere. As a teenage boy do you think that any woman gives a damn that my gender holds the white house? do you honestly believe that because my gender holds the most power that somehow that will prevent people from either gender from slandering males? no, it doesn't and it won't.

[AiliailiA]

As noted before, the "last 12 months" and "in your life" ratios are radically different for men and women.

Other Sexual Violence (because it appears in significant quantities for both):

.	Men	Women
In the last year	5.3	5.6
In your lifetime	22.2	44.6
Ratio	4.2	8.0

BOTH ratios are implausibly low. The results are weighted by age to the national adult demographic (older people responded more and were given less weight, younger people responded less and were given more, see appendix B ... after weighting, the median respondent is over 45 because the median adult is). So are we to believe that of all adult women who have experienced sexual violence, one in eight experienced it within the last year? And among men who have experienced it at some time in life, one in four experienced it within the last year?

One possible explanation is that only respondents 18 and over are eligible to participate. "In your lifetime" includes before that so sexual assault of children and teens could bump up female "lifetime" reports, either because it happens more to girls or that they acknowledge (and remember) it more.

Another possible explanation is that people who were victimized within the last year are more likely to participate in the survey. The acceptance rate is rather low (unsurprisingly given the subject ... the CDC actually offered a cash incentive to participate which seems rather desperate and liable to promote some fatuous answers, may also have biased the sample towards low income people which is a factor they DIDN'T weigh by).

And some victims would have been victimized more than once. But what explains the difference between men and women in this?

I don't give much weight to the idea that there is an epidemic of sexual harassment and assault of men (that it's essentially doubled in 4 or 8 years). Rather, I see increased awareness BY men that they can be victims. Old memories of being coerced into sex aren't remembered that way if at the time the man was laughed at for telling anyone about it: at least sometimes they write the memories to conform to what is expected rather than what actually happened (eg, by blaming themselves for being too drunk that night rather than blaming the woman who took advantage of that). Memories aren't perfect, they're stories which change a bit every time we tell them to ourselves.

Anyway, you can look at results from the last year and say that men are just as much victims of "rape" (broad sense) as women are, or you can look at lifetime results and say that women are twice as likely to be victims. Or you can look at both and say it's a massive disparity and thus very weak evidence overall.

Remember that the gaps in the tables are were evidence was not reported for having < 21 responses or over 30% statistical uncertainty. So the results that ARE reported have up to 30% error!? What the FUCK, CDC? What's your 95% confidence interval?

[AiliailiA]

well do not forget about insurance rates. Males, especially teenage males, cost more to insure than Females, why? it is assumed that merely because you are a teenage boy, you are going to be in more car accidents than a Teenage Girl based merely upon your gender.

Thing is, they ARE.

If we're going to remove discretion of insurers to set rates according to their own assessment of risk, we may as well nationalize the entire insurance industry.

[Euronion]

well do not forget about insurance rates. Males, especially teenage males, cost more to insure than Females, why? it is assumed that merely because you are a teenage boy, you are going to be in more car accidents than a Teenage Girl based merely upon your gender.

Thing is, they ARE.

If we're going to remove discretion of insurers to set rates according to their own assessment of risk, we may as well nationalize the entire insurance industry.

If you know me on the forums you know I am a capitalist. I do not mean to have insurers set their rates, Well actually, yeah, we should force insurers to set the same rates based on gender. What if these insurers were charging higher for Blacks than for Whites? would it matter that Blacks crash their car more than Whites? no. I understand rates being higher for men and boys on average because they have gotten into more crashes on average, but you cannot assume that every male coming into the market is going to be driving like a maniac and that every female entering the market is going to be driving like a careful grandma. The insurance rates coming into the market should not be based on someone's gender but based upon the amount of accidents they have been in.

[The Godly Nations]

So, Men, rise up, to fight for what you already have under the law. You see, although women, ethnic minorities, disabled people, etc. clammer for the rights they don't have, seeing as they in fact discriminated, we must make a show to them, to clammer for the rights we do have as we are in that happy state where we are perpetually persecuted in fiction.