Christian Discussion Thread II

[Dyakovo]

Because nontrinitarians are Christians.

Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in 325, 360, and 431 AD, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus.

Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.

Then how would they explain the teachings of "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit" then? You can't pick and choose what you want to be true.

EDIT: I really wouldn't call Mormons or JW's "christians".

I can see the argument for Mormons not being Christian if I squint just right, but why do you not consider JWs Christian?

[Dieu Vous Benisse]

Then how would they explain the teachings of "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit" then? You can't pick and choose what you want to be true.

EDIT: I really wouldn't call Mormons or JW's "christians".

I can see the argument for Mormons not being Christian if I squint just right, but why do you not consider JWs Christian?

Personally, I think we have bigger battles to fight than which christian group isn't really Christian, but here's the arguement against JW's:
Most people on this side of the argument believe it isn't Christian for one of six reasons

♦ Adding to the Word of God.
♦ Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they contradict their doctrines.
♦ they deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' physical resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith.
♦ The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies.
♦ collects "contributions" for distribution of a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families.
♦ The Witnesses are told they will be persecuted when they go door to door teaching their doctrines. They are told to shun those who leave their group.

They are also referred to as the Watchtower Cult (by those who say they are non-Christian)

[Dieu Vous Benisse]

And they do chew cud...

Also, just as an aside, all of the ones on Santa's slay are chicks. That's probably relevant to Christianity somehow.

Mystery solved gang!

You can only eat kosher food? What are birds?

[Grave_n_idle]

I can see the argument for Mormons not being Christian if I squint just right, but why do you not consider JWs Christian?

Personally, I think we have bigger battles to fight than which christian group isn't really Christian, but here's the arguement against JW's:
Most people on this side of the argument believe it isn't Christian for one of six reasons

♦ Adding to the Word of God.
♦ Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they contradict their doctrines.
♦ they deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' physical resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith.
♦ The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies.
♦ collects "contributions" for distribution of a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families.
♦ The Witnesses are told they will be persecuted when they go door to door teaching their doctrines. They are told to shun those who leave their group.

They are also referred to as the Watchtower Cult (by those who say they are non-Christian)

I have to point out that there's an amusing contradiction in your list - in that the 'trinity' is not something that's ever mentioned in scripture (go ahead, find a searchable online bible and search for 'trinity') - so one of the characteristics MOST 'christian' groups consider definitive - is 'adding to the Word of God'.

Not seeing the problem with collections - all the Christian churches round here tithe. Not seeing the problem with witnesses being told they'll be persecuted for door-to-door preaching, that's scriptural. Similarly, shunning people who leave their denomination is also scripturally defensible.

Also, in my experience, all Christian groups proclaim passages that don't fit their particular theology to be figurative, or less important, or somehow replaced.

[Dieu Vous Benisse]

Personally, I think we have bigger battles to fight than which christian group isn't really Christian, but here's the arguement against JW's:
Most people on this side of the argument believe it isn't Christian for one of six reasons

♦ Adding to the Word of God.
♦ Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they contradict their doctrines.
♦ they deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' physical resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith.
♦ The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies.
♦ collects "contributions" for distribution of a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families.
♦ The Witnesses are told they will be persecuted when they go door to door teaching their doctrines. They are told to shun those who leave their group.

They are also referred to as the Watchtower Cult (by those who say they are non-Christian)

I have to point out that there's an amusing contradiction in your list - in that the 'trinity' is not something that's ever mentioned in scripture (go ahead, find a searchable online bible and search for 'trinity') - so one of the characteristics MOST 'christian' groups consider definitive - is 'adding to the Word of God'.

Not seeing the problem with collections - all the Christian churches round here tithe. Not seeing the problem with witnesses being told they'll be persecuted for door-to-door preaching, that's scriptural. Similarly, shunning people who leave their denomination is also scripturally defensible.

Also, in my experience, all Christian groups proclaim passages that don't fit their particular theology to be figurative, or less important, or somehow replaced.

These are not my beliefs, I'm stating the argument against JW's.
But, there is no passage saying you can't go door to door recruiting new Christians. You should do anything short of sin to get people for Christ. And we have tithes and offerings to pay those working at the church, bills, and outreach to the community, not anti-other-christian Watchtower propaganda.
The trinity is stated in the passages below:
Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

2 Corinthians 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1 Peter 1:2

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

[Grave_n_idle]

But, there is no passage saying you can't go door to door recruiting new Christians.

No, but the scripture does say you'll be hated. Wasn't that your complaint?

You should do anything short of sin to get people for Christ.

Are you under the impression Witnesses don't evangelise?

And we have tithes and offerings to pay those working at the church, bills, and outreach to the community, not anti-other-christian Watchtower propaganda.

Not sure what your point is. Some churches hand out Chick tracts, some print or distribute Bibles, some print the Watchtower - I'm not really sure what you're objecting to - there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast definition of how you're 'supposed' to evangelise.

The trinity is stated in the passages below:
Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

2 Corinthians 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1 Peter 1:2

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Where does that say 'trinity'?

[Dieu Vous Benisse]

But, there is no passage saying you can't go door to door recruiting new Christians.

No, but the scripture does say you'll be hated. Wasn't that your complaint?

You should do anything short of sin to get people for Christ.

Are you under the impression Witnesses don't evangelise?

And we have tithes and offerings to pay those working at the church, bills, and outreach to the community, not anti-other-christian Watchtower propaganda.

Not sure what your point is. Some churches hand out Chick tracts, some print or distribute Bibles, some print the Watchtower - I'm not really sure what you're objecting to - there doesn't seem to be a hard and fast definition of how you're 'supposed' to evangelise.

The trinity is stated in the passages below:
Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

2 Corinthians 13:14

The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.

1 Peter 1:2

According to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you.

Where does that say 'trinity'?

I'm showing you that there is a Godhead, three in one. Father, Spirit, Son (haha, that's a song) But I digress, that is the trinity. The three.
I'm not positive what you meant on the door to door thing, but I'll trust you on that one, I don't feel like finding a verse about that.
Jehovah's Witness' are told not to socialize with people who are not JW's. I'm not sure how they effectively evangelize.
And, yes we do have resources, but you're not even referring to their putting false prophecies and doctrine in the Bible that wasn't there before, or that they encourage their congregation not to read the bible outside of Church.

[Grave_n_idle]

I'm showing you that there is a Godhead, three in one.

None of the verses you cited back that claim.

Jehovah's Witness' are told not to socialize with people who are not JW's.

All Christians are theoretically told not to socialise with people who are not of their denomination:

Mark 9:40 "For he that is not against us is on our part."

2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? "

2 Corinithians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you..."

Luke 11:17 "But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth."

Luke 11:23 "He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. "

I'm not sure how they effectively evangelize.

Those I've met evangelise chiefly by going door to door, asking if you are willing to talk about Jesus. I don't mind their approach, to be honest - I consider it vastly superior to the Baptists preaching at me in the workplace.

And, yes we do have resources, but you're not even referring to their putting false prophecies and doctrine in the Bible that wasn't there before,

In my experience, all Christian denominations are guilty of this.

...or that they encourage their congregation not to read the bible outside of Church.

I've not encountered that. The Witness I worked with not only read his Bible at work, but we had interesting and entertaining debates about it. Your experience may have been different.

[Dieu Vous Benisse]

I'm showing you that there is a Godhead, three in one.

None of the verses you cited back that claim.

Jehovah's Witness' are told not to socialize with people who are not JW's.

All Christians are theoretically told not to socialise with people who are not of their denomination:

Mark 9:40 "For he that is not against us is on our part."

2 Corinthians 6:14 "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? "

2 Corinithians 6:17 "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you..."

Luke 11:17 "But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house [divided] against a house falleth."

Luke 11:23 "He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. "

I'm not sure how they effectively evangelize.

Those I've met evangelise chiefly by going door to door, asking if you are willing to talk about Jesus. I don't mind their approach, to be honest - I consider it vastly superior to the Baptists preaching at me in the workplace.

And, yes we do have resources, but you're not even referring to their putting false prophecies and doctrine in the Bible that wasn't there before,

In my experience, all Christian denominations are guilty of this.

...or that they encourage their congregation not to read the bible outside of Church.

I've not encountered that. The Witness I worked with not only read his Bible at work, but we had interesting and entertaining debates about it. Your experience may have been different.

First of all, let me stress that I'm not attacking JW's.
And the Catholic Church and Mormoms, other than JW's, are the only denominations that have changed the text as far as I am aware. I happen to be non-denominational and rather alternative, so we have no reason to change the text to fit our needs, all we need is Jesus. Are you saying you've met Jehovah's witness' going door to door, because usually LDS do that. (Not to say I haven't occasionally) But JW's aren't allowed to. Now for your verses:
2 Corinthians 6:14: When they say unequally yoked, they mean marriage, like two oxen pulling a cart.
2 Corinithians 6:17: The second one says unclean thing which makes me think they may not be referring to people.
Luke 11:17: In the third he is not necessarily even referring to religion, now he may be. But we've used this verse to describe football teams
Luke 11:23: Having sons that are scattered means we need to gather them once more

I commend you for your stamina. I think I may just let you win this round

[Grave_n_idle]

First of all, let me stress that I'm not attacking JW's.
And the Catholic Church and Mormoms, other than JW's, are the only denominations that have changed the text as far as I am aware.

Really? How many books does your Bible have? Does it have all the books from the KJV translation?

I happen to be non-denominational and rather alternative, so we have no reason to change the text to fit our needs, all we need is Jesus.

So you don't believe in either rapture or trinity theology?

Are you saying you've met Jehovah's witness' going door to door,

Absolutely. Indeed, I wonder where you're getting your information - because, in my experience, that's the main avenue of Witness evangelism.

I commend you for your stamina. I think I may just let you win this round

It's not a matter of stamina, or winning rounds. I just like debating religion.

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

[New Acardia]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

What are the reasons that attart you to the Catholic faith?

[Abatael]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

I like this.

[Conscentia]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

Don't.

[Menassa]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

If you feel this is right.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

Go ahead. Then you won't embarrass us Protestants anymore.

[Menassa]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

Go ahead. Then you won't embarrass us Protestants anymore.

Whoa bob, let's try to love our neighbors as ourselves from now on.

EDIT: Wasn't he Lutheran?

[Vorkhalzis]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

I say, that you should do what you think is right. And if this is your decision, go for it.

[German American States]

I think the Trinity is more a part of Catholicism and Orthodoxy, not as much Protestant and reformed denominations.

My 100th Post!

The trinity is VERY much part of Protestant and Reformed denominations. I have NO idea where you came up with this idea.

Really? Probably didnt know cause I dont know many Protestants and the place where I live has mostly Cathoics. Sorry if I offended you.

[German American States]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

Join us! We have cookies:)

[Menassa]

Yo everyone. So I am thinking about becoming Catholic. What are your thoughts on that?

Join us! We have cookies:)

That's not a good reason to join a denomination.

[Abatael]

Join us! We have cookies:)

That's not a good reason to join a denomination.

Well, the fact that we bear the Four Marks of the Church is a good reason.

[Grave_n_idle]

Join us! We have cookies:)

That's not a good reason to join a denomination.

Pretty sure they don't actually have cookies, either.

[German American States]

Join us! We have cookies:)

That's not a good reason to join a denomination.

I was joking.

That's not a good reason to join a denomination.

Pretty sure they don't actually have cookies, either.

You should see our Church coffee hours!

[Farnhamia]

Join us! We have cookies:)

That's not a good reason to join a denomination.

It's as good a reason as any. Saving one's soul is hard enough without maybe a little teiglach or a macaroon or something sweet to help.