Christian Discussion Thread II

[The Orson Empire]

…who?

I know a lot of Protestants, all of them believe in the Holy Spirit, I have no idea where you are getting the idea that Protestants don't believe in the trinity...

Same here. I believe in all three of them.

[Goodclark]

I know a lot of Protestants, all of them believe in the Holy Spirit, I have no idea where you are getting the idea that Protestants don't believe in the trinity...

Same here. I believe in all three of them.

Exactly.

[Conscentia]

I disagree.

Why is that?

'Cause you are wrong.

[Goodclark]

Why is that?

'Cause you are wrong.

How so? Give me one major denomination that doesn't think the holy trinity is true. IF you find one, then we'll debate. But you are just dodging questions.

[Xathranaar]

I disagree.

Why is that?

You would think the existence of people calling themselves "Christian" who were not trinitarian, right from the very beginnings of the religion, would be enough.

[Conscentia]

'Cause you are wrong.

How so?

Because nontrinitarians are Christians.

Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in 325, 360, and 431 AD, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus.

Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.

[New Acardia]

I know a lot of Protestants, all of them believe in the Holy Spirit, I have no idea where you are getting the idea that Protestants don't believe in the trinity...

Same here. I believe in all three of them.

I am not a Protestant but most that I know do believe in The Holy Trinity

[Goodclark]

Why is that?

You would think the existence of people calling themselves "Christian" who were not trinitarian, right from the very beginnings of the religion, would be enough.

Just because they call themselves Christians, doesn't make it true.


I could say that I am a peanut butter sandwich floating in outer space, doesn't make it true.

[Goodclark]

How so?

Because nontrinitarians are Christians.

Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in 325, 360, and 431 AD, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus.

Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.

Then how would they explain the teachings of "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit" then? You can't pick and choose what you want to be true.

EDIT: I really wouldn't call Mormons or JW's "christians".

[Halfland]

Yo. Are you Southern Baptist or what?

You are correct.

I am too

[Conscentia]

Because nontrinitarians are Christians.

Various nontrinitarian views, such as Adoptionism, Monarchianism and Arianism existed prior to the formal definition of the Trinity doctrine in 325, 360, and 431 AD, at the Councils of Nicaea, Constantinople, and Ephesus.

Modern nontrinitarian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, La Luz del Mundo, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians and the United Church of God.

Then how would they explain the teachings of "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit" then? You can't pick and choose what you want to be true.

You Christians do it all the time.

And lo behold, Wikipedia did explaineth some of the various forms of nontrinitarianism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontrinitarianism#Christian

[Xathranaar]

You would think the existence of people calling themselves "Christian" who were not trinitarian, right from the very beginnings of the religion, would be enough.

Just because they call themselves Christians, doesn't make it true.


I could say that I am a peanut butter sandwich floating in outer space, doesn't make it true.

Yes, well you see the thing is. I can prove you are not that.

No religion has ever been able to prove much of anything.

But by all means, if you can demonstrate how exactly they are not Christian without the use of arbitrary definitions or circular reasoning, go ahead.

[Goodclark]

Just because they call themselves Christians, doesn't make it true.


I could say that I am a peanut butter sandwich floating in outer space, doesn't make it true.

Yes, well you see the thing is. I can prove you are not that.

No religion has ever been able to prove much of anything.

But by all means, if you can demonstrate how exactly they are not Christian without the use of arbitrary definitions or circular reasoning, go ahead.

I hate to sound like a broken record but, CHRISTIANS HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. The trinity is pretty much the entire base of Christianity in the first place, that and the teachings of Jesus.

[Prussia-Steinbach]

lolololololol

Well, if they are Jews that believe Christ is the Messiah then wouldn't that make them Christians. Because that is the definition of a Christian.

chris·tian
ˌkrisCHən:
A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

They may no longer follow Judaism, but they would still be ethnically Jewish. Following Judaism does not make one a Jew.

[Goodclark]

Well, if they are Jews that believe Christ is the Messiah then wouldn't that make them Christians. Because that is the definition of a Christian.

chris·tian
ˌkrisCHən:
A person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

Following Judaism does not make one a Jew.

Then what does make one a Jew? So you are saying that if I was not ethnically Jewish but I converted to Judaism, then I am not Jewish?

[Xathranaar]

Yes, well you see the thing is. I can prove you are not that.

No religion has ever been able to prove much of anything.

But by all means, if you can demonstrate how exactly they are not Christian without the use of arbitrary definitions or circular reasoning, go ahead.

I hate to sound like a broken record but, CHRISTIANS HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. The trinity is pretty much the entire base of Christianity in the first place, that and the teachings of Jesus.

Circular reasoning is circular.

The underlined business is demonstrably wrong. Trinitarian interpretation was never as weak as it was early in Christian history.

[Goodclark]

I hate to sound like a broken record but, CHRISTIANS HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. The trinity is pretty much the entire base of Christianity in the first place, that and the teachings of Jesus.

Circular reasoning is circular.

The underlined business is demonstrably wrong. Trinitarian interpretation was never as weak as it was early in Christian history.

Erm, it isn't circular reasoning. It's stating the same answer because the person asking the question is repeating the same question.

[Xathranaar]

Following Judaism does not make one a Jew.

Then what does make one a Jew? So you are saying that if I was not ethnically Jewish but I converted to Judaism, then I am not Jewish?

Judaism is an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture.

If you have any of these you are in some sense Jewish, but of course the more zealous Jews would want you to have all three.

[Goodclark]

Then what does make one a Jew? So you are saying that if I was not ethnically Jewish but I converted to Judaism, then I am not Jewish?

Judaism is an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture.

If you have any of these you are in some sense Jewish, but of course the more zealous Jews would want you to have all three.

Ya I know, the Orthodox Jewish sect is really strict on that.

[Xathranaar]

Circular reasoning is circular.

The underlined business is demonstrably wrong. Trinitarian interpretation was never as weak as it was early in Christian history.

Erm, it isn't circular reasoning. It's stating the same answer because the person asking the question is repeating the same question.

Your reasoning for why non-trinitarians are not Christians is, "CHRISTIANS HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY."

If you can't see why that's circular, I'm afraid you've blinded yourself with religion.

[Halfland]

Ah Calvinism.... interesting.

What do you disagree with?

Eh. Several things. Calvinism being the main, big-time difference. The SBC is not Calvinist - they're Arminian, the heretical bastards.

HOW DARE YOU!!!!

[Conscentia]

Yes, well you see the thing is. I can prove you are not that.

No religion has ever been able to prove much of anything.

But by all means, if you can demonstrate how exactly they are not Christian without the use of arbitrary definitions or circular reasoning, go ahead.

I hate to sound like a broken record but, CHRISTIANS HAVE TO BELIEVE IN THE TRINITY. The trinity is pretty much the entire base of Christianity in the first place, that and the teachings of Jesus.

No. The trinity is not the base of Christianity, as I explained in a previous post.

[Conscentia]

Following Judaism does not make one a Jew.

Then what does make one a Jew? So you are saying that if I was not ethnically Jewish but I converted to Judaism, then I am not Jewish?

(If I recall correctly)
Depends on which sect you ask.
The Orthodox would say no, for example.
You'd be a ger toshav (righteous gentile).

⬇See Menassa's post below.⬇

[Menassa]

Then what does make one a Jew? So you are saying that if I was not ethnically Jewish but I converted to Judaism, then I am not Jewish?

(If I recall correctly)
Depends on which sect you ask.
The Orthodox would say no, for example.
You'd be a ger toshav (righteous gentile).

FALSE.

If they converted under all the pretenses of Orthodox Judaism then they would be a Jew who converted.

A Ger Toshav means resident Alien and a person who abides by the noahide laws and lives among the Jews (this was more common in Biblical times then it is today)

A Ger Tzedek means a righteous Gentile..... or righteous convert for someone who converted.

Then what does make one a Jew? So you are saying that if I was not ethnically Jewish but I converted to Judaism, then I am not Jewish?

Judaism is an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture.

If you have any of these you are in some sense Jewish, but of course the more zealous Jews would want you to have all three.

You don't need to be ethnically Jewish, only convert. under the orthodox rules and regulations

[Xathranaar]

(If I recall correctly)
Depends on which sect you ask.
The Orthodox would say no, for example.
You'd be a ger toshav (righteous gentile).

FALSE.

If they converted under all the pretenses of Orthodox Judaism then they would be a Jew who converted.

A Ger Toshav means resident Alien and a person who abides by the noahide laws and lives among the Jews (this was more common in Biblical times then it is today)

A Ger Tzedek means a righteous Gentile..... or righteous convert for someone who converted.

Judaism is an ethnicity, a religion, and a culture.

If you have any of these you are in some sense Jewish, but of course the more zealous Jews would want you to have all three.

You don't need to be ethnically Jewish, only convert. under the orthodox rules and regulations

Even in reformed Judaism convert Jews are liable not to be taken seriously.

That girl I was telling you about earlier was told plenty of times that she wasn't a "real Jew," on account of looking like a Norse Goddess.

Of course, dating a goy didn't help her either.