Christian Discussion Thread II

[Madredia]

Mere Christianity is probably my favorite non-fictional Christian work. I see no issue with the Lewis trilemma as you do though.

Those three aren't the only options... for instance with me... Jesus doesn't fit into any of those as he hasn't affected me at all.

I think the proposition was aimed at those who say he's a great teacher, but not divine.

[Avenio]

Fuck okay last thing, In terms of Western Christianity there's been a sort of separate daily influence largely due to Greek and Roman influence. Originally Catholic dominated all aspects of life, trade. Science, law and Government, Much like Islam. This spit towards the enlightenment and religion was the counted separate from these things, while in Islam, it Sharia Law was law.

There is a great deal of art, associated with Christianity, Gun powder in the west, and its advancement is a direct result of Islamic Jihad. Hell Christianity is the reason certain countries exist today. Catholic persecution kept Islam out of Europe. Sharia law saved the economy of china. Religion has influenced the world we live in vastly. if not for the dark ages, we'd be colonizing the solar system right now.

Ye gods, its a terrible mashed-up litany of every junk popular historical concept that's been regurgitated and spewed on the internet and in mass media in the last 20 years and then some.

[Orcoa]

Fuck okay last thing, In terms of Western Christianity there's been a sort of separate daily influence largely due to Greek and Roman influence. Originally Catholic dominated all aspects of life, trade. Science, law and Government, Much like Islam. This spit towards the enlightenment and religion was the counted separate from these things, while in Islam, it Sharia Law was law.

There is a great deal of art, associated with Christianity, Gun powder in the west, and its advancement is a direct result of Islamic Jihad. Hell Christianity is the reason certain countries exist today. Catholic persecution kept Islam out of Europe. Sharia law saved the economy of china. Religion has influenced the world we live in vastly. if not for the dark ages, we'd be colonizing the solar system right now.

Ye gods, its a terrible mashed-up litany of every junk popular historical concept that's been regurgitated and spewed on the internet and in mass media in the last 20 years and then some.

Its like something out of a Cracked article or something...

[Menassa]

Those three aren't the only options... for instance with me... Jesus doesn't fit into any of those as he hasn't affected me at all.

I think the proposition was aimed at those who say he's a great teacher, but not divine.

Not really... because they he wouldn't be a lunatic or a liar.

[Orcoa]

I think the proposition was aimed at those who say he's a great teacher, but not divine.

Not really... because they he wouldn't be a lunatic or a liar.

.....he could be all 3!

[Madredia]

I think the proposition was aimed at those who say he's a great teacher, but not divine.

Not really... because they he wouldn't be a lunatic or a liar.

Thats the point. He can't be a great moral teacher alone. He is either God or he is a liar or he is a lunatic, but he can't be a great moral teacher, and not be God. If so why would he lie that he is, or why would he be so insane as to claim he is.

[Dyakovo]

http://atheism.about.com/od/churchstate ... omfrom.htm
Admittedly biased, but read through.

Actually, I thought that article was very middle of the road. But I'd argue all of what it claims to be "Freedom from Religion" is covered under the Free Exercise. what many proponents of FFR argue, is that they have a right to insulate themselves from Religion. You have advocated it by saying students should have their first amendment rights suppressed.

I never claimed my view of religion in schools was supported by freedom from religion.

[Menassa]

Not really... because they he wouldn't be a lunatic or a liar.

Thats the point. He can't be a great moral teacher alone. He is either God or he is a liar or he is a lunatic, but he can't be a great moral teacher, and not be God. If so why would he lie that he is, or why would he be so insane as to claim he is.

He's nothing... he does not exemplify the poor characteristics of a liar or the crazy ones of a lunatic... he's not a good moral teacher because he's unoriginal.

[Madredia]

Thats the point. He can't be a great moral teacher alone. He is either God or he is a liar or he is a lunatic, but he can't be a great moral teacher, and not be God. If so why would he lie that he is, or why would he be so insane as to claim he is.

He's nothing... he does not exemplify the poor characteristics of a liar or the crazy ones of a lunatic... he's not a good moral teacher because he's unoriginal.

Yes but thats from the viewpoint of you, who don't consider him a good moral teacher. Lewis's trilemma was addressed to those that do. This is what he said:

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

[Menassa]

He's nothing... he does not exemplify the poor characteristics of a liar or the crazy ones of a lunatic... he's not a good moral teacher because he's unoriginal.

Yes but thats from the viewpoint of you, who don't consider him a good moral teacher. Lewis's trilemma was addressed to those that do. This is what he said:

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

He claims credence to those who say nothing to his 'moral teachings'

[Madredia]

Yes but thats from the viewpoint of you, who don't consider him a good moral teacher. Lewis's trilemma was addressed to those that do. This is what he said:

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

He claims credence to those who say nothing to his 'moral teachings'

Pardon?

[Madredia]

Thats the point. He can't be a great moral teacher alone. He is either God or he is a liar or he is a lunatic, but he can't be a great moral teacher, and not be God. If so why would he lie that he is, or why would he be so insane as to claim he is.

He's nothing... he does not exemplify the poor characteristics of a liar or the crazy ones of a lunatic... he's not a good moral teacher because he's unoriginal.

Also whether he exemplifies a liar or lunatic's characteristics, the fact is that he said he was God, so if he was not, then he's a liar, or he's so delusional that he thought he was. He said "Before Abraham was, I am." Now obviously since you don't believe that to be true, you are saying that he made a false statement, in other words, lied.

[Menassa]

He claims credence to those who say nothing to his 'moral teachings'

Pardon?

A liar is more than a person who tells a lie.... a person is not called a liar for one lie he told, a liar is someone with that characteristics of not telling the truth.... and what we know of Jesus... cannot be portrayed as such.... and he is not Lord or lunatic... as he has proven himself to be none Sabbetai Tzvi was also neither Lord nor lunatic.

[Madredia]

Pardon?

A liar is more than a person who tells a lie.... a person is not called a liar for one lie he told, a liar is someone with that characteristics of not telling the truth.... and what we know of Jesus... cannot be portrayed as such.... and he is not Lord or lunatic... as he has proven himself to be none Sabbetai Tzvi was also neither Lord nor lunatic.

He consistently behaved with authority that he should have had no right to exercise were he not God, and mad statements about his own divinity. Calling one's self as being before Abraham is not simply one lie. How could he ever be trusted of if that is a lie? And that is not the only instance on which he made such claims. I'm sorry but if you believe that Jesus was not God then he must be a liar. "Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus." He consistently affirmed this it wasn't a little white fib he told. If this is not true it makes him a liar, or deluded into thinking he was God. You may think he has no significance and then this whole thing doesn't apply to you, but if you think he is a great teacher and moral icon but not the Lord of Hosts, that is contradictory.

[Menassa]

A liar is more than a person who tells a lie.... a person is not called a liar for one lie he told, a liar is someone with that characteristics of not telling the truth.... and what we know of Jesus... cannot be portrayed as such.... and he is not Lord or lunatic... as he has proven himself to be none Sabbetai Tzvi was also neither Lord nor lunatic.

He consistently behaved with authority that he should have had no right to exercise were he not God, and mad statements about his own divinity. Calling one's self as being before Abraham is not simply one lie. How could he ever be trusted of if that is a lie? And that is not the only instance on which he made such claims. I'm sorry but if you believe that Jesus was not God then he must be a liar. "Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus." He consistently affirmed this it wasn't a little white fib he told. If this is not true it makes him a liar, or deluded into thinking he was God. You may think he has no significance and then this whole thing doesn't apply to you, but if you think he is a great teacher and moral icon but not the Lord of Hosts, that is contradictory.

C.S. Lewis presents it as the only three options, as you have said these options only apply when he means something to you, and that is what I am saying.

[Madredia]

He consistently behaved with authority that he should have had no right to exercise were he not God, and mad statements about his own divinity. Calling one's self as being before Abraham is not simply one lie. How could he ever be trusted of if that is a lie? And that is not the only instance on which he made such claims. I'm sorry but if you believe that Jesus was not God then he must be a liar. "Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” “I am,” said Jesus." He consistently affirmed this it wasn't a little white fib he told. If this is not true it makes him a liar, or deluded into thinking he was God. You may think he has no significance and then this whole thing doesn't apply to you, but if you think he is a great teacher and moral icon but not the Lord of Hosts, that is contradictory.

C.S. Lewis presents it as the only three options, as you have said these options only apply when he means something to you, and that is what I am saying.

Oh well then yes we agree on that. These 3 options are meant for those who actually consider him as anything.

[Menassa]

C.S. Lewis presents it as the only three options, as you have said these options only apply when he means something to you, and that is what I am saying.

Oh well then yes we agree on that. These 3 options are meant for those who actually consider him as anything.

Because he couldn't be a moral teacher.... as he wasn't very original.

[Madredia]

Oh well then yes we agree on that. These 3 options are meant for those who actually consider him as anything.

Because he couldn't be a moral teacher.... as he wasn't very original.

Pardon?

EDIT: Nvm. The originality of Jesus and his ministry is too murky a subject to get into right now as I'm pretty tired and I'm well aware of your rejection of Jesus as the Messiah. Perhaps for another time.

[Menassa]

Because he couldn't be a moral teacher.... as he wasn't very original.

Pardon?

He can't be a good moral teacher... as you have said... I believe because he's not original.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Pardon?

He can't be a good moral teacher... as you have said... I believe because he's not original.

And he's so bloody vague you can interpret virtually anything from what he says.

[Madredia]

Pardon?

He can't be a good moral teacher... as you have said... I believe because he's not original.

And I believe its because he was/is/will be, as he said, God, and therefore he is much more than a "good moral teacher". I'm aware that you don't believe he is the Messiah though so thats a topic I would rather not get into right now.

[Vazdania]

Pardon?

He can't be a good moral teacher... as you have said... I believe because he's not original.

Sorry to disagree with you, Menassa. But one doesn't need to be original to be a good teacher.

[Vazdania]

He can't be a good moral teacher... as you have said... I believe because he's not original.

And he's so bloody vague you can interpret virtually anything from what he says.

how so?

[Nationalist State of Knox]

He can't be a good moral teacher... as you have said... I believe because he's not original.

Sorry to disagree with you, Menassa. But one doesn't need to be original to be a good teacher.

But does borrowing from other ideologies mean you should rise to fame like Jesus did?

[Vazdania]

Sorry to disagree with you, Menassa. But one doesn't need to be original to be a good teacher.

But does borrowing from other ideologies mean you should rise to fame like Jesus did?

I feel as though that is a loaded question...