Christian Discussion Thread II

[Tarsonis Survivors]

You've argued from the beginning that God does not exist. It's fine if you believe that, but this isn't the place to discuss it.

We are discussing one supposed trait of God not his existence as a whole.

We are now, but that hasn't been the tone, or rather the Perceived tone of the discussion.

[Neo Rome Republic]

We are discussing one supposed trait of God not his existence as a whole.

We are now, but that hasn't been the tone, or rather the Perceived tone of the discussion.

Well, we've moved on from that talking point. Now, back to what you meant by the view that God, can do anything ''not wrong but simplistic''. As I've told you, I've been using the dictionary definition of what it means to be omnipotent. http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/defini ... omnipotent

[Tarsonis Survivors]

We are now, but that hasn't been the tone, or rather the Perceived tone of the discussion.

Well, we've moved on from that talking point. Now, back to what you meant by the view that God, can do anything ''not wrong but simplistic''. As I've told you, I've been using the dictionary definition of what it means to be omnipotent. http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/defini ... omnipotent

that's one definition. there are others, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotent

[Neo Rome Republic]

Well, we've moved on from that talking point. Now, back to what you meant by the view that God, can do anything ''not wrong but simplistic''. As I've told you, I've been using the dictionary definition of what it means to be omnipotent. http://oxforddictionaries.com/us/defini ... omnipotent

that's one definition. there are others, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotent

The one in which with has absolute power refers to almighty which refers to GOD. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almighty

[Dyakovo]

You've argued from the beginning that God does not exist. It's fine if you believe that, but this isn't the place to discuss it.

We are discussing one supposed trait of God not his existence as a whole.

Well, in a way I have been discussing his existence as a whole.
The christian god, as he is presented in scripture, cannot exist.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

that's one definition. there are others, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omnipotent

The one in which with has absolute power refers to almighty which refers to GOD. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almighty

absolute power over all, which doesn't refer to him being able to DO ANYYYYYYYYYTHING, it means he can anything he want's and no one can stop him.
hence why i said it was simplistic.

For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent.

[Neo Rome Republic]

The one in which with has absolute power refers to almighty which refers to GOD. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/almighty

absolute power over all, which doesn't refer to him being able to DO ANYYYYYYYYYTHING, it means he can anything he want's and no one can stop him.
hence why i said it was simplistic.

For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent.

If his power has a limit then it cannot be all encompassing(absolute)if he cannot do something then his power has a limit.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

We are discussing one supposed trait of God not his existence as a whole.

Well, in a way I have been discussing his existence as a whole.
The christian god, as he is presented in scripture, cannot exist.

And what I think here, and I've kind of argued myself into this position, but that it's a fundamental disconnect, on what All powerful truly means. Can he do anything???? or can he just do what ever he wants and nothing can stop him.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

absolute power over all, which doesn't refer to him being able to DO ANYYYYYYYYYTHING, it means he can anything he want's and no one can stop him.
hence why i said it was simplistic.

For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent.

If his power has a limit then it cannot be all encompassing(absolute)if he cannot do something then his power has a limit.

We're talking more about authority now, than being able to perform specific tasks.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well, in a way I have been discussing his existence as a whole.
The christian god, as he is presented in scripture, cannot exist.

And what I think here, and I've kind of argued myself into this position, but that it's a fundamental disconnect, on what All powerful truly means. Can he do anything???? or can he just do what ever he wants and nothing can stop him.

basically not so much that HE CAN DO ANYTHING ANYTHING EVER! but there is none greater than he, and even the universe submits to his power. By our perception of the physical universe, he can do really anything, but as it is argued he can't do things contrary to his nature. He is the top Dog, he cant create something greater than himself because by nature he is top dog.

[Dyakovo]

And what I think here, and I've kind of argued myself into this position, but that it's a fundamental disconnect, on what All powerful truly means. Can he do anything???? or can he just do what ever he wants and nothing can stop him.

basically not so much that HE CAN DO ANYTHING ANYTHING EVER! but there is none greater than he, and even the universe submits to his power. By our perception of the physical universe, he can do really anything, but as it is argued he can't do things contrary to his nature. He is the top Dog, he cant create something greater than himself because by nature he is top dog.

There is, however, no evidence of that.

[Neo Rome Republic]

And what I think here, and I've kind of argued myself into this position, but that it's a fundamental disconnect, on what All powerful truly means. Can he do anything???? or can he just do what ever he wants and nothing can stop him.

basically not so much that HE CAN DO ANYTHING ANYTHING EVER! but there is none greater than he, and even the universe submits to his power. By our perception of the physical universe, he can do really anything, but as it is argued he can't do things contrary to his nature. He is the top Dog, he cant create something greater than himself because by nature he is top dog.

But would you admit he still has a limit? Even if that limit is himself?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

basically not so much that HE CAN DO ANYTHING ANYTHING EVER! but there is none greater than he, and even the universe submits to his power. By our perception of the physical universe, he can do really anything, but as it is argued he can't do things contrary to his nature. He is the top Dog, he cant create something greater than himself because by nature he is top dog.

But would you admit he still has a limit? Even if that limit is himself?

Yes, he is bound by his own will, and that is actually talked about in the Bible.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

basically not so much that HE CAN DO ANYTHING ANYTHING EVER! but there is none greater than he, and even the universe submits to his power. By our perception of the physical universe, he can do really anything, but as it is argued he can't do things contrary to his nature. He is the top Dog, he cant create something greater than himself because by nature he is top dog.

There is, however, no evidence of that.

Well, from an objective standpoint, if the Virgin birth was indeed legitimate, it would be proof. But that was 2000 years ago, good luck digging that up. There's no "proof" that the universe submits to his power, but there's evidence depending on your point of view.

[Neo Rome Republic]

But would you admit he still has a limit? Even if that limit is himself?

Yes, he is bound by his own will, and that is actually talked about in the Bible.

Well good because, that's what I wanted to address. Could you address it?
This in Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

[Dyakovo]

There is, however, no evidence of that.

Well, from an objective standpoint, if the Virgin birth was indeed legitimate, it would be proof. But that was 2000 years ago, good luck digging that up. There's no "proof" that the universe submits to his power, but there's evidence depending on your point of view.

My standpoint is that if the evidence isn't verifiable, it is worthless.

[Blasveck]

And what I think here, and I've kind of argued myself into this position, but that it's a fundamental disconnect, on what All powerful truly means. Can he do anything???? or can he just do what ever he wants and nothing can stop him.

basically not so much that HE CAN DO ANYTHING ANYTHING EVER! but there is none greater than he, and even the universe submits to his power. By our perception of the physical universe, he can do really anything, but as it is argued he can't do things contrary to his nature. He is the top Dog, he cant create something greater than himself because by nature he is top dog.

Is it good because god says it is, or does god say it because it is good?

[The Holy Michigan Empire]

I am gone for 6 hours and the thread is being poked.

What in god's name happened while I was gone.

[Neo Rome Republic]

I am gone for 6 hours and the thread is being poked.

What in god's name happened while I was gone.

We went deep into the omnipotence paradox. VERY DEEP

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Yes, he is bound by his own will, and that is actually talked about in the Bible.

Well good because, that's what I wanted to address. Could you address it?
This in Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Ah okay the verse must be viewed in context.


23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches[d] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”

27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

28 Then Peter began to say to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You.”

29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”


It's not saying that God can do anything. It's saying two separate things.

Take 26 and we'll call it 27a.

26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”

27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God


It's discussing salvation. It's saying men cannot save themselves, they are saved by God. the foundation of the Sola Gratia concept.

27b for with God all things are possible.” Which means with God anything can be achieved. Another translation says "Through God" rather than With God (English really is a bitch) which means more that Man can achieve anything with faith in God.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

basically not so much that HE CAN DO ANYTHING ANYTHING EVER! but there is none greater than he, and even the universe submits to his power. By our perception of the physical universe, he can do really anything, but as it is argued he can't do things contrary to his nature. He is the top Dog, he cant create something greater than himself because by nature he is top dog.

Is it good because god says it is, or does god say it because it is good?

both?

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Well, from an objective standpoint, if the Virgin birth was indeed legitimate, it would be proof. But that was 2000 years ago, good luck digging that up. There's no "proof" that the universe submits to his power, but there's evidence depending on your point of view.

My standpoint is that if the evidence isn't verifiable, it is worthless.

Well that's a problem because while all proof is evidence, not all evidence is necessarily proof.

[The Holy Michigan Empire]

I am gone for 6 hours and the thread is being poked.

What in god's name happened while I was gone.

We went deep into the omnipotence paradox. VERY DEEP

How the hell does not mentioned biblical scrolls go into Paradoxes.

[Neo Rome Republic]

We went deep into the omnipotence paradox. VERY DEEP

How the hell does not mentioned biblical scrolls go into Paradoxes.

Scroll back the pages and you'll find out.

[Neo Rome Republic]

Well good because, that's what I wanted to address. Could you address it?
This in Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Ah okay the verse must be viewed in context.


23 Then Jesus looked around and said to His disciples, “How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were astonished at His words. But Jesus answered again and said to them, “Children, how hard it is for those who trust in riches[d] to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”

27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God; for with God all things are possible.”

28 Then Peter began to say to Him, “See, we have left all and followed You.”

29 So Jesus answered and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or lands, for My sake and the gospel’s, 30 who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time—houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions—and in the age to come, eternal life. 31 But many who are first will be last, and the last first.”


It's not saying that God can do anything. It's saying two separate things.

Take 26 and we'll call it 27a.

26 And they were greatly astonished, saying among themselves, “Who then can be saved?”

27 But Jesus looked at them and said, “With men it is impossible, but not with God


It's discussing salvation. It's saying men cannot save themselves, they are saved by God. the foundation of the Sola Gratia concept.

27b for with God all things are possible.” Which means with God anything can be achieved. Another translation says "Through God" rather than With God (English really is a bitch) which means more that Man can achieve anything with faith in God.

So, they can do anything that GOD permits, correct?