NRA - Put Armed Good Guys In All Schools

[Jedi8246]

I said nothing about a bigger one.

So we would keep the same force, but outfit them better. Because the current force is plenty big enough, they just have defective stuff.

When it takes five to ten minutes for the police to respond to a call, there's a problem.

[Jedi8246]

Guns can kinda do this thing where they can stop others from shooting. Go figure right?

I don't think it's necessarily un-libertarian to want a better police force. I do want a police force that actually can respond if needed and doesn't decide to abuse it's powers and act like a government funded gang.

If someone is in a state where they are ready to shoot people, they don't care who's packing.

Perhaps not the mentally ill folks. But the point remains is that no crazy person is going to get very many people when they are taken care of the moment they try to shoot someone.

And for the criminals who commit ARMED robbery, they won't get very far when the store owner and one or two customers are also carrying arms.

[Greed and Death]

They would not need to, if gun rights were given the same protection of speech and abortion.

In other words, everyone has a right to guns, even military models with no other purpose than mass casualities. Got it.

Military models are not legal and have not been since 1984.

Sporting rifles designed to look like military models are legal. sporting rifles are the rifle of choice for many women and men of smaller statute, as well as children( people do take their kids hunting sometimes). In essence your advocating the ban of scary looking rifles. Banning a weapon based on appearance is both arbitrary and capricious, further it does nothing to make the incident less likely to occur or to reduce violent crime rates. Criminals will simply use a just as deadly but less scary looking weapon.

Think of it like this there is an increase in vandalism on Halloween, because we encourage teenagers to wear mask and go out. Give teens anonymity and a chance and they tend to get destructive. Further these teens who vandalize tend to wear scary looking mask. However banning scary looking mask will not reduce vandalism rates teens will simply wear less scary looking mask while vandalizing. Seriously the My little pony mask is just as effective at obfuscating the identity as the Freddie Kruger mask.

Same with fire arms a CZ 527 Varmint gun is just as deadly as a Ar-15. Same rates of fire same ammo, same length, same specs in general. Just one has wood stocks and so looks less military.

[Northern Dominus]

Your semiautomatic assault rifle will have to do.

I'm fairly certain it being semi-automatic would make it just a normal rifle.

Actually, there's more to an assault weapon classification than just the ability of a weapon to utilize fully-automatic fire.

See, even in semi-automatic form, an AR-15 pattern weapon still has traits which denote its intended primary use, which is combat. First, it is designed in such away to facilitate quick aiming and firing, either from the shoulder or even from the hip. Secondly, an AR-15 is engineered to facilitate fast loads via box magazines. With relatively little practice a person can swap out an empty 30 round magazine for a full one in less than a second with ease. And in the case of more modern AR-15 types, there are piccanty rails which are designed to accomidate various attachments such as forward grips, red dot or holographic sights, or even flashlights designed just as much to blind and disorient as well as illuminate.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Even in semi-auto civilianized version, an AR-15 or any other miltiary-patterend civilian weapon is not "just" a rifle or "Carbine" (semi-auto SMG knockoffs). They're not trusty general-purpose plinking or utility rifles like your grandfather's trusty Winchester or Remmington or Savage. They're still combat-oriented firearms, designed to facilitate quick firing and quick reloading with the expectation that somebody will be shooting back.

Good to know. I'll bring the entire city of Chicago because we're frankly tired of being held hostage by the Cult of Guns. We're tired people being murdered because its pefectly legal to buy a firearm in one state without so much as a background check, then having those weapons end up on the street and in the hands of criminals.

And most of all, on a personal note, I'm tired of being patronized by twerps like Wayne LaPierre, who isn't fooling anybody when he blames everything but the pervasive Cult of the Gun for the murder of 27 people at the hand of one deranged person who was too easily able to obtain those weapons and commit that act of uncalcuable brutality before turning one of them back on himself. I'm done with being fed BS by the likes of Ted Nugent, who aren't fooling that many people when he tries to not only claim the 2nd Amendment as an excuse for complete non-regulation but that military-pattern weapons are only used for hunting and target practice.

Maybe if Chicago didn't leave a defenseless populace with nobody but a shitty police force to protect them they wouldn't be held hostage.

First of all, Chicago residents have every right to carry a firearm so long as they obtain a liscense to do so. A court case saw to that.

And the CPD is far from shitty these days. God knows they work extremely hard and do their damndest with the resources they have. Without a doubt they're the bravest officers in the state, possibly the midwest considering the violence and gang warfare they face down on a regular basis. The sad fact is that this generation officers is paying for the sins of the last generation of officers, the ones that actively engaged in their own criminal enterprises and rather racist policies, so they rarely have the community support that is so desperately needed.

And even if they did have that, there's still the issue of firearms being bought by straw purchasers in INdiana, Kentucky, and Michigan and being smuggled over the state lines and into the hands of criminals and psychos. Had the Cult of the Gun aquiesced to the problem and helped close the gun show loophole, the gun violence in this city would have dropped of significantly a long time ago. But they didn't, and it hasn't.

[Arlenton]

Guns are inanimate objects. Many fail to see this.

[Grinning Dragon]

I'm fairly certain it being semi-automatic would make it just a normal rifle.

Actually, there's more to an assault weapon classification than just the ability of a weapon to utilize fully-automatic fire.

See, even in semi-automatic form, an AR-15 pattern weapon still has traits which denote its intended primary use, which is combat. First, it is designed in such away to facilitate quick aiming and firing, either from the shoulder or even from the hip. Secondly, an AR-15 is engineered to facilitate fast loads via box magazines. With relatively little practice a person can swap out an empty 30 round magazine for a full one in less than a second with ease. And in the case of more modern AR-15 types, there are picatinny rails which are designed to accommodate various attachments such as forward grips, red dot or holographic sights, or even flashlights designed just as much to blind and disorient as well as illuminate.

There is so much with this I don't know where to start.
Only on the AR platform huh? What no mention of weaver rails? Why the hate?

[Genivaria]

Guns are inanimate objects. Many fail to see this.

Your point being?

[Paddy O Fernature]

Actually, there's more to an assault weapon classification than just the ability of a weapon to utilize fully-automatic fire.

See, even in semi-automatic form, an AR-15 pattern weapon still has traits which denote its intended primary use, which is combat. First, it is designed in such away to facilitate quick aiming and firing, either from the shoulder or even from the hip. Secondly, an AR-15 is engineered to facilitate fast loads via box magazines. With relatively little practice a person can swap out an empty 30 round magazine for a full one in less than a second with ease. And in the case of more modern AR-15 types, there are picatinny rails which are designed to accommodate various attachments such as forward grips, red dot or holographic sights, or even flashlights designed just as much to blind and disorient as well as illuminate.

There is so much with this I don't know where to start.
Only on the AR platform huh? What no mention of weaver rails? Why the hate?

You must be new here, ND is the resident hate monger for civilian owned "assault" rifles. Disagree with him, and you automatically belong to the "Cult of Gun".

[Flaxxony-Setram]

Gunmen can still obtain their guns through illegal means, and their targets will be completely defenceless.

Tell me, where's the nearest arms dealer near you? Illegal, of course.

So, since you are so committed to making this guy look like a fool, I would like to, in return, show you how naive you are.

That will start by pointing out that drug dealers aren't that rare. And since guns aren't illegal, how could he find an illegal one? I mean listen to how ludicrous you sound; that's like my opening up a pastry shop and saying "ooh imma be a badass and, and, not report all my sales!!! (Manaical laugh follows)".

Illegalize guns and illegal salemen will pop up right next to the pimps and the crack dealers. Idiot.

[Soufrika]

At first, I was thinking along these lines, but after putting some thought into it, I'm not so sure. Then I thought about gun ownership in Israel.

It is forbidden in Israel to own any kind of firearm, including air pistols and rifles, without a firearms license.

Israel Defense Forces officers honorably discharged with the rank of non-commissioned officer, reservists honorably discharged with the rank of regimental commander, ex-special forces enlisted men, retired police officers with the rank of sergeant, retired prison guards with the rank of squadron commander, licensed public transportation drivers transporting a minimum of five people, and full-time dealers of jewellery or large sums of cash or valuables, Civil Guard volunteers, and residents of militarily strategic buffer zones considered essential to state security are eligible for licenses allowing them to possess one handgun. Reservists honorably discharged with the rank of regimental commander are also eligible for licenses allowing them to possess one rifle. Licensed hunters may possess one shotgun, and licensed animal-control officers are allowed to possess two rifles while Civil Guard snipers may possess one rifle.

To legally own a gun as a souvenir, prize, inheritance, or award of appreciation from the military, an individual must first present proper documentation that they are about to receive it. Permits for gun collectors are extremely rare, and typically only given to ex-high-ranking officers.

To obtain a gun license, an applicant must be a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years, have no criminal record, be in good health, have no history of mental illness, pass a weapons-training course, and be over a certain age (20 for women who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 21 for men who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 27 for those who did not complete military service or civil service equivalent, 45 for residents of East Jerusalem).

Gun licenses must be renewed every three years and permits are given only for personal use, not for business in the firearms sale while holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun, and may purchase a maximum of fifty rounds a year, except for those shot at firing ranges.

...

Members of officially recognized shooting clubs (practical shooting, Olympic shooting) are eligible for personal licenses allowing them to possess additional firearms (small bore rifles, handguns, air rifles and air pistols) after demonstrating a need and fulfilling minimum membership time and activity requirements. Unlicensed individuals are allowed supervised use of pistols at firing ranges. Following a number of cases of firearm-related suicides at firing ranges, private individuals who do not own firearms are required to present a certificate of good conduct and a physician's health declaration in order to shoot at commercial firing ranges.

Self-defense firearms may be carried in public, concealed or openly. Israel is notable for being a country with few places where firearms are off limits to licensed individuals (private premises, some government offices and institutions, courts).

In addition to private licenses of firearms, organizations can issue carry licenses to their members for activity related to that organization (e.g. security companies, shooting clubs, other workplaces).

Soldiers are allowed to carry their personal weapons and ammunition while on furlough during active service, uniformed or in civilian clothing.

So maybe we should consider something like this.

[Frisivisia]

Guns are inanimate objects. Many fail to see this.

As are n00ks. Legalize teh n00ks.

[Genivaria]

Tell me, where's the nearest arms dealer near you? Illegal, of course.

So, since you are so committed to making this guy look like a fool, I would like to, in return, show you how naive you are.

That will start by pointing out that drug dealers aren't that rare. And since guns aren't illegal, how could he find an illegal one? I mean listen to how ludicrous you sound; that's like my opening up a pastry shop and saying "ooh imma be a badass and, and, not report all my sales!!! (Manaical laugh follows)".

Illegalize guns and illegal salemen will pop up right next to the pimps and the crack dealers. Idiot.

Don't flame.

[Northern Dominus]

Actually, there's more to an assault weapon classification than just the ability of a weapon to utilize fully-automatic fire.

See, even in semi-automatic form, an AR-15 pattern weapon still has traits which denote its intended primary use, which is combat. First, it is designed in such away to facilitate quick aiming and firing, either from the shoulder or even from the hip. Secondly, an AR-15 is engineered to facilitate fast loads via box magazines. With relatively little practice a person can swap out an empty 30 round magazine for a full one in less than a second with ease. And in the case of more modern AR-15 types, there are picatinny rails which are designed to accommodate various attachments such as forward grips, red dot or holographic sights, or even flashlights designed just as much to blind and disorient as well as illuminate.

There is so much with this I don't know where to start.
Only on the AR platform huh? What no mention of weaver rails? Why the hate?

If you're going to quote me, at least quote the entire thing and not chop it up and shoehorn my statements to fit your own statement.

After that I mentioned the following:

Let's not kid ourselves here. Even in semi-auto civilianized version, an AR-15 or any other miltiary-patterend civilian weapon is not "just" a rifle or "Carbine" (semi-auto SMG knockoffs). They're not trusty general-purpose plinking or utility rifles like your grandfather's trusty Winchester or Remmington or Savage. They're still combat-oriented firearms, designed to facilitate quick firing and quick reloading with the expectation that somebody will be shooting back.

So that encompasses civilian firearms patterened off of assault rifles and submachine guns among others. Compared to your average "utility" rifle such as a Remington Model 8 which is designed to be stable and simple by comparison, military-pattern weapons are rather focused and specific in their design. Yes they can be used for other purposes, but their design is first and foremost combat.

As far as Weaver rails...that's a gray area really. Certainly they have both military and civilian applications, but then again they don't come in miles and miles long versions like picatinny rails do. It all comes down to primary application and use.

[Paddy O Fernature]

Guns are inanimate objects. Many fail to see this.

As are n00ks. Legalize teh n00ks.

One could argue, that most that post on online forums could be classified as Inanimate Objects.

Laugh damn you all!

[Flaxxony-Setram]

So, since you are so committed to making this guy look like a fool, I would like to, in return, show you how naive you are.

That will start by pointing out that drug dealers aren't that rare. And since guns aren't illegal, how could he find an illegal one? I mean listen to how ludicrous you sound; that's like my opening up a pastry shop and saying "ooh imma be a badass and, and, not report all my sales!!! (Manaical laugh follows)".

Illegalize guns and illegal salemen will pop up right next to the pimps and the crack dealers. Idiot.

Don't flame.

Sorry. I get fed up with elitist, douchey, put-down rhetorical remarks here. There is no
reason for someone with no knowledge on a subject to be putting down others' opinions.

[Frisivisia]

Don't flame.

Sorry. I get fed up with elitist, douchey, put-down rhetorical remarks here. There is no
reason for someone with no knowledge on a subject to be putting down others' opinions.

*Gets mad at elitist, douchey remarks

*Makes a douchey remark

[Occupied Deutschland]

Guns are inanimate objects. Many fail to see this.

As are n00ks. Legalize teh n00ks.

Actually, to my knowledge there are no US laws pertaining to private ownership of nuclear weapons, so they don't even have to be legalized.

[Jedi8246]

Guns are inanimate objects. Many fail to see this.

Your point being?

Guns are not the problem here. It's people who either have mental health problems or feel that robbery is the best way to earn a profit.

[Frisivisia]

Your point being?

Guns are not the problem here. It's people who either have mental health problems or feel that robbery is the best way to earn a profit.

Exactly, that's why n00ks should be for consumer purchase, after all, they're just inanimate objects, and as long as you're not mentally disabled, why not?

[Grinning Dragon]

There is so much with this I don't know where to start.
Only on the AR platform huh? What no mention of weaver rails? Why the hate?

If you're going to quote me, at least quote the entire thing and not chop it up and shoehorn my statements to fit your own statement.

After that I mentioned the following:

Let's not kid ourselves here. Even in semi-auto civilian version, an AR-15 or any other military-patterend civilian weapon is not "just" a rifle or "Carbine" (semi-auto SMG knockoffs). They're not trusty general-purpose plinking or utility rifles like your grandfather's trusty Winchester or Remington or Savage. They're still combat-oriented firearms, designed to facilitate quick firing and quick reloading with the expectation that somebody will be shooting back.

So that encompasses civilian firearms patterned off of assault rifles and sub machine guns among others. Compared to your average "utility" rifle such as a Remington Model 8 which is designed to be stable and simple by comparison, military-pattern weapons are rather focused and specific in their design. Yes they can be used for other purposes, but their design is first and foremost combat.

As far as Weaver rails...that's a gray area really. Certainly they have both military and civilian applications, but then again they don't come in miles and miles long versions like picatinny rails do. It all comes down to primary application and use.

I only quoted what was needed to be quoted and that was your severe lack of understanding of an AR platform or any other platform of weapons and your understanding of mechanics.

You rail about an AR being quick to aim, Oh, NO, other firearms fail in this category? What are those little iron things? Oh, yeah, they are called iron sights, oh wait maybe you mean red dot sights? Obviously these red dot sights cannot be placed on say, a Winchester bolt action rifle or maybe you mean scopes, gasp not scopes.

You also display your lack of understanding of why an AR platform or other platform rifles that have pistol grips, hip firing a pistol grip rifle is VERY uncomfortable, regular stock weapons are much suited for this task, the other reason for pistol grips is to allow the shooter to remain in control of the weapon while being fired do to the recoil and other forces in play.
Then there is the fact in the way the AR platform or other platformed rifles that use a pistol grip is the way they are designed to allow a comfortable fit when rifle is raised to shoulder and the hand placement.

Now on to picatinny rails VS weaver, here you show your lack of understanding, the difference is with the spacing in between the slots.

[Poorisolation]

Don't flame.

Sorry. I get fed up with elitist, douchey, put-down rhetorical remarks here. There is no
reason for someone with no knowledge on a subject to be putting down others' opinions.

Would you, for the sake of exactitude, please characterise what you mean by elitist? Would it possibly be something along the lines of educated and well informed and capable of grasping the subject under discussion?

You see I live in one of many countries where the sale of firearms is tightly controlled and somewhat restricted...that is not merely does the sale have to be recorded and authorised before going through but the licence to obtain said firearm has to authorised and recorded before the sale can even commence. I find that yes...possibly due to a hang over from a former profession, I do have a vague idea where the nearest illegal contact supplying firearms might be found. I would note however that there are substantially more drug dealers of various kinds though their numbers are falling and that the number of illegal firearms is both rarer and their use rarer.

I would point out that the common experience of nations that by and large have rendered the vast majority of fire arms purchases illegal or at least have highly restricted their legality is that the number of illegal weapons falls in line or indeed faster than the numbers of legal ones. In addition the murder rate in total and the gun murder rate in particular consistently remains well below the levels of even the safer states in the US.

[Northern Dominus]

There is so much with this I don't know where to start.
Only on the AR platform huh? What no mention of weaver rails? Why the hate?

You must be new here, ND is the resident hate monger for civilian owned "assault" rifles. Disagree with him, and you automatically belong to the "Cult of Gun".

Oh I don't hate civilian ownership of military-pattern firearms. I just have a severe allergy to BS such as "They're all for target practice/hunting."

If we can't even have that sort of honesty from the Cult of the Gun then can we honestly expect any reasonable discussion of firearms regulation that doesn't infringe upon the basics of the 2nd Amendment?

[Earth Empire]

(Image)

Where is your hall-pass, you have 13 seconds to comply!!

Hahaha

[Xomic]

The whole "good guy bad guy" thing makes me wonder why the NRA seems to believe the world is a bloody comic book.

[Tmutarakhan]

So we would keep the same force, but outfit them better. Because the current force is plenty big enough, they just have defective stuff.

When it takes five to ten minutes for the police to respond to a call, there's a problem.

If you want to make sure they respond within seconds, you need policemen standing every few feet, everywhere.