NationStates

The Free and Just Republic of Freedomol wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:
That's a nice strawman you're attacking right there. I never said that religious people should live the way I say they should.

People can believe whatever they want. No, my contention is this whole damning someone for choosing to be responsible and for choosing what they consider best for themselves and hiding behind a deity. Something many religious people seem to be very adept at doing, telling others how they should live.

Now that, that is indeed hypocritical and, well, it stinks of self-righteousness.

As you were saying that religions should or shouldn't do something, I interpreted that as you wishing to dictate how religion should work. if you claim you were dojng something different, ai won't argue with you.

My overall point is that congregations have been effective at mantaining folowers so far. I don't have that many statistics on congregations now and I'm too lazy to look them up, so I'll only give you my view on past trends.
anyways, it's about 2 PM in my timezone. you can respond to my post if you want the last word, but I won't bother reading responses.

Spiritus Sancti wrote:

Norstal wrote:So you're telling me you can read the Bible, but you can't read a simple forum post.

I don't have time for the smart-ass comments. I came here for debate and discussion, not name calling. I don't want to get into a trolling match. I have much better things I can do, I want to use my month of from college wisely.

Silent Majority wrote:The level of obedience you expect people to have to their church is quite frankly, medieval.

Tekania wrote:
That's the RCC's governmental structure, though. So that level of obedience is certainly expected from parishioners. What Catholic is is defined from the top down..... as such those at the bottom not abiding by the rulings of the top are not, within the context of Roman Catholicism, really Catholic. It's a general problem I've had with Roman Catholics for awhile now.... their adherence to a Church they do not believe in. This stems from the fact that the Roman church is alien to most Americans. They are used to the idea that leaders are accountable to the people (members)... and such is not the case within the Roman Church's government structure.... the leaders are accountable only to those over then, not those under them. One could almost say American Catholicism is its own religion distinct from the Roman Church which hasn't developed the balls to go out on their own yet.

Daelos Tribes wrote:

Tekania wrote:
That's the RCC's governmental structure, though. So that level of obedience is certainly expected from parishioners. What Catholic is is defined from the top down..... as such those at the bottom not abiding by the rulings of the top are not, within the context of Roman Catholicism, really Catholic. It's a general problem I've had with Roman Catholics for awhile now.... their adherence to a Church they do not believe in. This stems from the fact that the Roman church is alien to most Americans. They are used to the idea that leaders are accountable to the people (members)... and such is not the case within the Roman Church's government structure.... the leaders are accountable only to those over then, not those under them. One could almost say American Catholicism is its own religion distinct from the Roman Church which hasn't developed the balls to go out on their own yet.

Thank you.


I really don't at all understand why everyone is getting so harsh on the OP here. He's making a legitimate point that many, many people who call themselves Catholic do not follow Catholic doctrine. Like, at all. You can say what you want about how awful those expectations are on people, but the fact of the matter is, if you do not follow them, how can you call yourself Catholic?

It's like calling yourself a Communist and supporting the existence of classes.

Daelos Tribes wrote:

Tekania wrote:
That's the RCC's governmental structure, though. So that level of obedience is certainly expected from parishioners. What Catholic is is defined from the top down..... as such those at the bottom not abiding by the rulings of the top are not, within the context of Roman Catholicism, really Catholic. It's a general problem I've had with Roman Catholics for awhile now.... their adherence to a Church they do not believe in. This stems from the fact that the Roman church is alien to most Americans. They are used to the idea that leaders are accountable to the people (members)... and such is not the case within the Roman Church's government structure.... the leaders are accountable only to those over then, not those under them. One could almost say American Catholicism is its own religion distinct from the Roman Church which hasn't developed the balls to go out on their own yet.

Thank you.


I really don't at all understand why everyone is getting so harsh on the OP here. He's making a legitimate point that many, many people who call themselves Catholic do not follow Catholic doctrine. Like, at all. You can say what you want about how awful those expectations are on people, but the fact of the matter is, if you do not follow them, how can you call yourself Catholic?

It's like calling yourself a Communist and supporting the existence of classes.

Ashmoria wrote:
the church cant micromanage your life.

catholics dont have a choice. they are catholics because it is the one true church. being a bad catholic is still being a catholic. except for matters of doctrine there is no reason to worry that the pope doesnt like <whatever>. believing in the doctrine is correct is enough. no human follows every rule. its not in our nature.

Daelos Tribes wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:
the church cant micromanage your life.

catholics dont have a choice. they are catholics because it is the one true church. being a bad catholic is still being a catholic. except for matters of doctrine there is no reason to worry that the pope doesnt like <whatever>. believing in the doctrine is correct is enough. no human follows every rule. its not in our nature.

And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

Tekania wrote:

Daelos Tribes wrote:


And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Daelos Tribes wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:
the church cant micromanage your life.

catholics dont have a choice. they are catholics because it is the one true church. being a bad catholic is still being a catholic. except for matters of doctrine there is no reason to worry that the pope doesnt like <whatever>. believing in the doctrine is correct is enough. no human follows every rule. its not in our nature.

And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

Tekania wrote:My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

The Victorious Dragon wrote:The Catholic Church does not need to get with the times. The times need to get with the church.

Tekania wrote:My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Ashmoria wrote:

Daelos Tribes wrote:


And if there weren't Catholics that genuinely believed that their violation of the doctrine wasn't wrong, I would agree. But there are Catholics out there who are actually outright opposed to Catholic doctrine, like, for example, Paul Ryan according to the OP.


Admittedly, I'm not and have never been Catholic. Perhaps there are doctrinal loopholes that I'm not aware of, like the one Biden cited in his explanation of why he's pro-choice. But I have yet to hear of most of them.

the church cannot dictate your frigging politics.

if paul ryan had come out against the trinity you might wonder why he is a catholic. having a shitty budget proposal doesnt negate his catholicism. it makes him imperfect just like everyone else.

Dyakovo wrote:

Tekania wrote:
My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Now if only all theists were like you and your wife...

Bottle wrote:

Ashmoria wrote:the church cannot dictate your frigging politics.

if paul ryan had come out against the trinity you might wonder why he is a catholic. having a shitty budget proposal doesnt negate his catholicism. it makes him imperfect just like everyone else.

It's not about whether the Church dictates your politics, it's about whether YOU support the CHURCH'S politics. To be honest, nobody really gives a fuck about what individual Catholics might or might not believe (and apparently the Church gives even fewer fucks than the rest of us), what matters is how an extremely wealthy and influential organization uses its power to hurt people.

Tekania wrote:

Dyakovo wrote:Now if only all theists were like you and your wife...

Most of my theist friends are pretty liberal as myself..... I've had some more hardline theist friends, but they are in prison now. There's got to be some irony in that.

I'm especially speaking of one who I later found out had a conversation of my wife that she needed to watch out around me, as I was not a "Man of God" like him..... and as he's presently doing a 15 year bit in state prison for soliciting sex from a 14 year old... I'm sure my wife is pretty happy that I am not a mad of God like him.

The Victorious Dragon wrote:The Catholic Church does not need to get with the times. The times need to get with the church.

Ashmoria wrote:

Bottle wrote:It's not about whether the Church dictates your politics, it's about whether YOU support the CHURCH'S politics. To be honest, nobody really gives a fuck about what individual Catholics might or might not believe (and apparently the Church gives even fewer fucks than the rest of us), what matters is how an extremely wealthy and influential organization uses its power to hurt people.

that is a different issue from the one proposed by the OP.

Bottle wrote:Does she actively support the Catholic Church?

Tekania wrote:

Bottle wrote:Does she actively support the Catholic Church?

Presently, no... she left Catholicism and is presently a member of the same Presbyterian (PCUSA) church I attend.

Bottle wrote:

Tekania wrote:
Presently, no... she left Catholicism and is presently a member of the same Presbyterian (PCUSA) church I attend.

Good on her, then, and my above rant clearly does not apply.

“In life and death, we belong to God.” Life is a gift from God. We may not know exactly when human life begins, and have but an imperfect understanding of God as the giver of life and of our own human existence, yet we recognize that life is precious to God, and we should preserve and protect it. We derive our understanding of human life from Scripture and the Reformed Tradition in light of science, human experience, and reason guided by the Holy Spirit. Because we are made in the image of God, human beings are moral agents, endowed by the Creator with the capacity to make choices. Our Reformed Tradition recognizes that people do not always make moral choices, and forgiveness is central to our faith. In the Reformed Tradition, we affirm that God is the only Lord of conscience-not the state or the church. As a community, the church challenges the faithful to exercise their moral agency responsibly.

The Victorious Dragon wrote:

Tekania wrote:My Wife (raised catholic) has views like Biden... she would never get an abortion herself, but she does not believe in using her views as a basis for general social policy to impose upon others.

Cardinal Arinze has a lot to say about that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kv3MRyKfEHA