Germany To Ban Far-Right Political Party

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

A brave attempt to make Hungary an actual communist society. The fact that the Red Army went in and murdered everybody was outrageous and a tragedy.

Eh, not really Hungarian opposition actually begged the West to intervene. They just wanted free and democratic elections and end to political repression organized by the socialists.

I suggest that you actually examine historical fact rather than just floating about in an alternate reality in which all the Hungarian dissidents were capitalists fighting off EBUL SOZIALIST OPPRESSION.

[Euronion]

I'd rather not have a tyranny by majority though.

That's an undemocratic belief, as you're opposing the will of the people. I respect your right to hold undemocratic beliefs. That's a democratic belief, as I want the people to be exposed to your beliefs so the will of the people can be more accurately measured.

See? Democracy allows for undemocratic beliefs.

What evidence exactly do you have that the majority are always right? The majority in Nazi Germany killed and persecuted Millions. I do not see how opposing the will of the majority, inhibiting the ability of the 50.000000001% to oppress the 49.999999999%.

[Sulamalik]

I'd rather not have a tyranny by majority though.

That's an undemocratic belief, as you're opposing the will of the people. I respect your right to hold undemocratic beliefs. That's a democratic belief, as I want the people to be exposed to your beliefs so the will of the people can be more accurately measured.

See? Democracy allows for undemocratic beliefs.

I am a supporter of constitutional republics, not democracies, for that reason.

[Zottistan]

That's an undemocratic belief, as you're opposing the will of the people.

Why shouldn't one oppose the will of the people if the will of the people is stupid?

Just because a majority believes something doesn't automatically mean that that thing they believe can't be 100% moronic. Like those dumb gay marriage bans in various US states.

There's absolutely no reason that you shouldn't oppose the will of the people. It's actually good for the democratic system if you do. The more opinions, the better.

[Zaras]

That's an undemocratic belief, as you're opposing the will of the people. I respect your right to hold undemocratic beliefs. That's a democratic belief, as I want the people to be exposed to your beliefs so the will of the people can be more accurately measured.

See? Democracy allows for undemocratic beliefs.

What evidence exactly do you have that the majority are always right? The majority in Nazi Germany killed and persecuted Millions.

Oi. The Nazis were never a majority in Germany. They received only 43% of the vote in the last free election, and that's with a fuckton of intimidation and suppression of leftist parties.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

That's an undemocratic belief, as you're opposing the will of the people. I respect your right to hold undemocratic beliefs. That's a democratic belief, as I want the people to be exposed to your beliefs so the will of the people can be more accurately measured.

See? Democracy allows for undemocratic beliefs.

What evidence exactly do you have that the majority are always right? The majority in Nazi Germany killed and persecuted Millions. I do not see how opposing the will of the majority, inhibiting the ability of the 50.000000001% to oppress the 49.999999999%.

Not really, no, given that at no point in the Weimar Republic did the Nazi Party win more than half the votes.

[Zaras]

Eh, not really Hungarian opposition actually begged the West to intervene. They just wanted free and democratic elections and end to political repression organized by the socialists.

I suggest that you actually examine historical fact rather than just floating about in an alternate reality in which all the Hungarian dissidents were capitalists fighting off EBUL SOZIALIST OPPRESSION.

I doubt Hippo'll take you up on it.

[Divair]

What evidence exactly do you have that the majority are always right? The majority in Nazi Germany killed and persecuted Millions.

Oi. The Nazis were never a majority in Germany. They received only 43% of the vote in the last free election, and that's with a fuckton of intimidation and suppression of leftist parties.

And before they started preaching for mass genocide.

[Olivaero]

Why shouldn't one oppose the will of the people if the will of the people is stupid?

Just because a majority believes something doesn't automatically mean that that thing they believe can't be 100% moronic. Like those dumb gay marriage bans in various US states.

There's absolutely no reason that you shouldn't oppose the will of the people. It's actually good for the democratic system if you do. The more opinions, the better.

The "will of the people" is sometimes in direct opposition to other groups of "the people" hence why we live in republics not pure democracies.

[Free South Califas]

Banning any party is undemocratic and should not happen in any free society. If those extremist parties have any chance of gaining political power through popular vote: you have much more serious problem than that party.

Not really. Germany and most other European democracies have proportional representation systems where a racist party is basically guaranteed one seat at the table unless you ban them, even if they have no influence on anyone except the most hardcore racists. Now for the opinion section: Those who would exploit democracy to destroy it should not be invited to play. At least an anarchist aims to further democracy beyond the restrictions of the ballot box into the workplace and the deep roots of the social order. A Nazi (or similar political actor) just wants to trick others into giving them power they can abuse. Remember that Hitler used his manpower to force the government to recognize him as Chancellor even without legitimately winning the election. No, I think the willingness to ban such parties before they can get any such shenanigans going is a sign of health in a political system. Thankfully the social conditions aren't such that the NPD have been able to raise a private army; that's why now's the time to kick them out of the room, before they can combine underground organizing with political power.

[Lodricar]

The whole EU is being brought down by three or four in particular, and Greece isn't willing to stop being so liberal in allowing early retirement and great amounts of Social Security to be running into them.

And you're not willing to stop being uninformed about the situation enough to realise that Greece's welfare state by European standards is shitty and has nothing to do with its problems.

Y'know, you could be less of an ass about it.

[Zottistan]

That's an undemocratic belief, as you're opposing the will of the people. I respect your right to hold undemocratic beliefs. That's a democratic belief, as I want the people to be exposed to your beliefs so the will of the people can be more accurately measured.

See? Democracy allows for undemocratic beliefs.

What evidence exactly do you have that the majority are always right? The majority in Nazi Germany killed and persecuted Millions. I do not see how opposing the will of the majority, inhibiting the ability of the 50.000000001% to oppress the 49.999999999%.

The Nazis weren't the majority. But if they were, then putting them in power would have been the democratic thing to do. It would have seriously fucked everything up, and it did, but that's not the point.

[Zaras]

And you're not willing to stop being uninformed about the situation enough to realise that Greece's welfare state by European standards is shitty and has nothing to do with its problems.

Y'know, you could be less of an ass about it.

Mirroring the phrasing of your post = being an ass?

[Zaras]

What evidence exactly do you have that the majority are always right? The majority in Nazi Germany killed and persecuted Millions. I do not see how opposing the will of the majority, inhibiting the ability of the 50.000000001% to oppress the 49.999999999%.

The Nazis weren't the majority. But if they were, then putting them in power would have been the democratic thing to do. It would have seriously fucked everything up, and it did, but that's not the point.

Could you please be less concerned about your precious theoretical functioning of democracy and more about how it actually works in reality? Reality isn't a vacuum. The moment you admit you would defend the Nazis being in power should be the moment you pause and reconsider your line of reasoning.

[Zottistan]

Y'know, you could be less of an ass about it.

Mirroring the phrasing of your post = being an ass?

Nothing wrong with being an ass. Some people are in to that.

[Genivaria]

National Democratic Party sounds pretty legit though.

Oh yeah I think you'd love them.
Ideology:
National Socialism
Ethnic nationalism
German nationalism
Pan-Germanism
Third Position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_D ... rmany_(NPD)
Its also been labeled as "the most significant neo-Nazi party to emerge after 1945".

So yeah, ban it.

[Zaras]

Mirroring the phrasing of your post = being an ass?

Nothing wrong with being an ass. Some people are in to that.

Is that an innuendo?

[Slavoland]

To only who shows who is stupid and incompete to debate is you with your ad hominem arguments.

Sure.
Who just posted a lot of unsourced bullshit about Napolitano?

Your were the first for accusing me for not knowing having a debate. I posted my reason why I think what I think

Post it in the original Italian. No problem. Or even in Slovenian, Croatian, Russian, German, Spanish, French, whatever floats your boat.
Yes, I'm calling your bluff.

here is a Croatian source:
"U veljači 2007., na "Dan obilježavanja žrtava fojbi", talijanski predsjednik Giorgio Napolitano dao je izjavu u kojoj je pokolje u fojbama nazvao "barbarstvom stoljeća" , "posljedicom krvoločne slavenske mržnje" , "slavenskog aneksionizma" govoreći o hrvatskoj i slovenskoj antifašističkoj borbi za oslobođenje istočnog Jadrana od talijanske okupacije. Napolitanove izjave su izjave su izazvale hitru i oštru reakciju vodstva Republike Hrvatske"

http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talijanski ... nti-Slav-5

In google translate:
"In February 2007., The 'Day celebration foibe victims, "Italian President Giorgio Napolitano issued a statement in which he slaughters speech on Saturday called" barbarity Century, "" consequences Slavic bloodthirsty hatred "," Slavic aneksionizma "referring to the Croatian and Slovene anti-fascist struggle for the liberation of the eastern Adriatic coast of the Italian occupation. Napolitano's statements are statements have sparked a swift and sharp reaction from the Croatian leadership"

"Fini". He's such a prominent politician you don't even know his name.

No, why should I know a name of a Italian fashist?

Actually, it's considered a day dedicated to remembering the Italophone population fashist population of Istria and Dalmatia who left those areas after WW2. And even the istitution of that has been (and still is) quite disputed.

His celebration is an act of provocation, historical revisionism and giving legitimacy of the fahist rule in thoose provinces and praising of Mussolini

"Trieste".
Also, omg, there are some racist idiots around. Boo-hoo, sooo scared.

No, it is called Trst.
Yes, I know not all Italians are so, but it is also not a minority especially in Trst where the most racist are. There is also this term that they are using Schiavo.

Maybe they didn't like the attempt at grabbing Trieste.
And, as if the Italian partisans had no role in eliminating the fascists.

The first Italian partisans where establihed in dalmazia from former fashist soldiers, to be more correct in Split in 1943. (the Garibaldi division). Their partisans were only active when they saw that the mussolini will lose the war. There are not significant and they should thanks croatia and Slovenia for having them.

Fashist Italy was same as Nazi Germany and it should take responsibility

Bullshit.

I gave you the link you can see it.

Yes it is. So what? They didn't attempt to breach the Constitution in any seriously menacing way. They're just a bunch of buffoons.

Than they should be worried abour how many people are voting for them.

Not a right-winger.

A nationalistic left-winger

Politician says something stupid. How is this news? It's only one thing at least compared to Berlusconi's parade of fail.

Because this statement shows how the Italian political leadership thinks when it comes about Italys role in WW2. I also never heard the german president that said that the holocaust never existed

So's Alessandra Mussolini and Marine Le Pen. Your point?

They are voted, that says something how many people are voting for them. nevertleless such people are in minority

Sauce.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_M ... _and_Foibe
This holiday is against anti-fashism

Italy's constitutional thing. Advocate changing it then.

Yes, it is. As said it shows that de-nazification has never properly be in Italy

Sauce.

In Triest during 10th February such Esuls have their commerorations whith Mussolini pictures.

http://hypervocal.com/culture/2011/so-h ... stributor/


Look, there can even Mussolini and Hitler vine be bought in Italy, I have seen personally such store.

They should be thankful to the ex-Yugoslav republic for liberating them from fashism but instead the political establishment gives statements that Zadar, Rijeka and Dubrovnik are Italian.

Sauce.

The 10th February hooliday is the source.

And yes, Lega Nord is a racist party.

Which people vote for. What does that mean?

It is a regional party from Northern Italy, it is known for being racist toward immigrants.

[Zottistan]

Nothing wrong with being an ass. Some people are in to that.

Is that an innuendo?

The Nazis weren't the majority. But if they were, then putting them in power would have been the democratic thing to do. It would have seriously fucked everything up, and it did, but that's not the point.

Could you please be less concerned about your precious theoretical functioning of democracy and more about how it actually works in reality? Reality isn't a vacuum. The moment you admit you would defend the Nazis being in power should be the moment you pause and reconsider your line of reasoning.

I didn't say once that I would defend the Nazis being in power. I would disagree very strongly with it, although probably covertly. I don't have to agree with the will of the people to acknowledge that it is the will of the people. A society should be governed by the majority of its denizens if it is democratic. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the majority.

[Zaras]

Because this statement shows how the Italian political leadership thinks when it comes about Italys role in WW2. I also never heard the german president that said that the holocaust never existed

One guy saying dumb shit =/= the entire political leadership.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Memorial_Day_of_the_Exiles_and_Foibe
This holiday is against anti-fashism

I don't see the big deal.

Yes, it is. As said it shows that de-nazification has never properly be in Italy

I fail to see how that shows what you just... attempted to claim.

http://hypervocal.com/culture/2011/so-hitler-mussolini-have-their-own-beer-now-thanks-to-italian-distributor/

Italian distributor is stupid. How does this reflect on all of Italy?

Look, there can even Mussolini and Hitler vine be bought in Italy, I have seen personally such store.

So? One distributor is stupid. Free market at work.

The 10th February hooliday is the source.

It's about as useful a source as your English.

It is a regional party from Northern Italy, it is known for being racist toward immigrants.

Yes, and? They suck. So?

;)

Knew it!

I didn't say once that I would defend the Nazis being in power. I would disagree very strongly with it, although probably covertly. I don't have to agree with the will of the people to acknowledge that it is the will of the people.

The will of the people is not infallible. Plenty of times it's been totally fucking wrong and illegitimate.

[Novaya Tselinoyarsk]

National Democratic Party sounds pretty legit though.

Oh yeah I think you'd love them.
Ideology:
National Socialism
Ethnic nationalism
German nationalism
Pan-Germanism
Third Position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_D ... rmany_(NPD)
Its also been labeled as "the most significant neo-Nazi party to emerge after 1945".

So yeah, ban it.

And you also have to wear Thor Steinar.

[Zottistan]

I didn't say once that I would defend the Nazis being in power. I would disagree very strongly with it, although probably covertly. I don't have to agree with the will of the people to acknowledge that it is the will of the people.

The will of the people is not infallible. Plenty of times it's been totally fucking wrong and illegitimate.

It indeed has been completely wrong many times. Never once once was it illegitimate. No matter what you do, you're going to have one or more groups having more power than other groups. Doesn't it make a lot more sense that group that has the most power is the group with the most supporters?

[Ifreann]

I know this one other German guy who was a big fan of banning political parties as well!

This is why I like Germany.

Indeed, left-wingers have never been friends of liberty.

Called for the banning of any left wing or communist parties lately?

[Otherton Island]

I think this is rather undemocratic. It is a dangerous slippery slope when a government can outlaw ideologies they don't like.

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

I know this one other German guy who was a big fan of banning political parties as well!

This is why I like Germany.

Indeed, left-wingers have never been friends of liberty.

Oh wow, Hippo seeking to compare a German government banning a neo-Nazi party for violations of its democratic constitution to antidemocratic racist thugs!

Because that's not at all a bloody idiotic and intellectually vapid point to raise.

What I got from this, Hippo, and your other posts in this thread, is that racism and thuggish violence should be allowed in the interests of liberty, but that EBUL LEFTISTS should all be sent to camps.

Probably camps with a high concentration of residents, or something. I wonder what you'd call them.

Even by your standards, that is pretty hypocritical.

I think this is rather undemocratic. It is a dangerous slippery slope when a government can outlaw ideologies they don't like.

I think you need to familiarise yourself with why they're being banned.