School Shooting in Connecticut - Multiple Fatalities

[Avenio]

these rare events have little to do with guns either way, it's about mental health.

It's about both. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

The very same cases have occurred in nations without high access to firearms with similar fatalities, machetes, swords and hatchets to my memory have all been used in similar events. The unifying factor is the mind of the perpetrator, mentally ill and largely untreated.

I really rather doubt one person could kill 30 people in 15 minutes with a hatchet.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Oh for crying out loud, can there be ONE day, ONE DAMN DAY, between a tragedy and the inevitable bullshit politicising? How about stepping back and thinking "You know what, there are people out there in a lot of pain because of this, maybe my energy would be best put to work helping them in some fashion rather than debating what this means to my own personal views."

Is that too much to ask, that maybe we all take care of our extended American, or better yet HUMAN family first who need somebody to lean on and shoulder to cry into, or does every fucking thing no matter how heinous or awful have to become some sort of springboard for somebody to dive off of and into the swirling shitty miasma of "I'm right and this proves it"?

When is the right time?

Since you asked (rhetorically), I'd say to wait a day out of respect for the dead. It's not like this will be forgotten tomorrow.

[Frisivisia]

Prove that this has little to do with guns. Source that melee weapons have contributed similar numbers of casualties.

Don't know about melee weapons, but kerosene and matches have killed a similar number of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Land_fire

That's one example.

[Jocabia]

If a bridge falls down and people die, should we not question the pittance that we spend on infrastructure? If a pharmaceutical kills some people, should we not talk about recalling it?

Eventually yes, but not on the exact day, not while there are people out there in a lot of pain that could use the support of their extended American family right about now.

Instead of standing on the dead bodies to make a goddamn point, maybe that person could use that energy and those thought processes to head to Sandy Hook if they're close enough, volunteer in some way. Maybe they could go to their nearest red cross and donate blood, or make a donation to a local charity. In fact, here's a list of what people can do other than try and make their personal views known while riding on a wave of innocent blood:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 02760.html

Or they can take all that energy, those thought processes, and maybe write an email expressing their heartfelt condolences to the families affected, let them know that they're not alone and Sandy Hook isn't some island in the wake of this tragedy. All are more productive and far more helpful than ballyhooing about who's right and who isn't at the moment.

Uh, yes, we do. And we should. On the day a bridge falls down, we start talking about why it happened and how to prevent it in the future.

If I die in some horrific way some day and I'm on the news, your tears won't help me or my family, because we don't know you. But I would love to believe that if my death was preventable, that as a result of my death, future deaths would be prevented. That would be an excellent tribute to me. And I'd be very grateful if you'd do me the honor of not patronizing my death.

[Chernoslavia]

Here is a better and more trusted source for gun laws having to do with gunshows. Written by actual gun owners. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/1 ... -loophole/

Better by who's standards? Trusted more by who? Written by gunowners, oh, I bet this will be a completely unbiased source about guns!

Theres also links to federal sources. And yes, actual law-abiding gun owners. If you do not own a firearm and have never even attempted to buy a firearm, let alone even fire one and you deny sources written by people that have more experience with firearms, then yes it is not as biased as some mainstream media sources....especially freaking Washington Post. The media in general is the worst place to get information about gun laws and gun crime.

[Ifreann]

If a bridge falls down and people die, should we not question the pittance that we spend on infrastructure? If a pharmaceutical kills some people, should we not talk about recalling it?

Eventually yes, but not on the exact day, not while there are people out there in a lot of pain that could use the support of their extended American family right about now.

We're not all American.

Instead of standing on the dead bodies to make a goddamn point...

Like you're doing? And you are. You're using this tragedy to excoriate us for not behaving as you think it proper.

Or they can take all that energy, those thought processes, and maybe write an email expressing their heartfelt condolences to the families affected, let them know that they're not alone and Sandy Hook isn't some island in the wake of this tragedy. All are more productive and far more helpful than ballyhooing about who's right and who isn't at the moment.

Why are we posting on an internet forum instead of being productive? Why are you?

Also, e-mail who, exactly?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Better by who's standards? Trusted more by who? Written by gunowners, oh, I bet this will be a completely unbiased source about guns!

Theres also links to federal sources. And yes, actual law-abiding gun owners. If you do not own a firearm and have never even attempted to buy a firearm, let alone even fire one and you deny sources written by people that has more experience with firearms, then yes it is not as biased as some mainstream media sources....especially freaking Washington Post. The media in general is the worst place to get information about gun laws and gun crime.

Because the media doesn't confirm a pro-gun hypothesis, I'd bet.

[Tubbsalot]

The media in general is the worst place to get information about gun laws and gun crime.

Yeah, you need to go to obscure internet pages with spinning gifs and comic sans typeface for the really fair and balanced stuff. Doesn't get more credible than that.

[Jocabia]

When is the right time?

Since you asked (rhetorically), I'd say to wait a day out of respect for the dead. It's not like this will be forgotten tomorrow.

Ah, but it is. It always is. We have a very short memory. The shock and outrage passes and we go back to complaining about gas prices and whether or not some General is cheating on his wife. There will never be more people focused on this problem than immediately after a tragedy of this magnitude. It would not be good to use this tragedy to implement bad solutions, but definitely finding good solutions is the absolute best thing we can do at the moment.

[Indira]

What kind of sick son of a bitch shoot's up a Elementary school?

A very disturbed one. And rather like a dangerous dog, you keep out of its way until it's put down.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Until you are pumped full of lead by the owner as you are trying to leave. Let me put it this way, if someone where to break into your house in a home invasion, and you are upstairs (assuming your house has two stories) would you feel safer knowing you had a shotgun to protect you or would you feel safer knowing that while the invaders have a handgun that they got in Mexico, you have a wooden baseball bat to protect you?

Total and complete honesty here:

The presence of the shotgun would not make me feel any safer at all in that situation. Not even a tiny bit.

Maybe that's a difference between me and gun enthusiasts? Guns do not give me a feeling of safety. The idea of being able to shoot an intruder does not make me feel safer. The idea of shooting anybody doesn't make me feel safer.

Firearms don't give me a feeling of safety, either (I live in an area where I'm more likely to hit a deer with my truck than get robbed/assaulted/etc). They do however, give me a sense of enjoyment when I can use one of them to score more points than one or more of my friends at the range, or when I can disassemble them to install a new part.

[Frisivisia]

Better by who's standards? Trusted more by who? Written by gunowners, oh, I bet this will be a completely unbiased source about guns!

Theres also links to federal sources. And yes, actual law-abiding gun owners. If you do not own a firearm and have never even attempted to buy a firearm, let alone even fire one and you deny sources written by people that have more experience with firearms, then yes it is not as biased as some mainstream media sources....especially freaking Washington Post. The media in general is the worst place to get information about gun laws and gun crime.

Your claim of widespread media bias against guns really just invalidates you as a debater. You've asked me to disregard all reputable news sources in favor of this one clearly biased source.

[The Black Forrest]

Since you asked (rhetorically), I'd say to wait a day out of respect for the dead. It's not like this will be forgotten tomorrow.

Ah, but it is. It always is. We have a very short memory. The shock and outrage passes and we go back to complaining about gas prices and whether or not some General is cheating on his wife. There will never be more people focused on this problem than immediately after a tragedy of this magnitude. It would not be good to use this tragedy to implement bad solutions, but definitely finding good solutions is the absolute best thing we can do at the moment.

Sorry I was distracted by the flashing light and the TV had a reality show on it.

What were we talking about?

[Desperate Measures]

Eventually yes, but not on the exact day, not while there are people out there in a lot of pain that could use the support of their extended American family right about now.

Instead of standing on the dead bodies to make a goddamn point, maybe that person could use that energy and those thought processes to head to Sandy Hook if they're close enough, volunteer in some way. Maybe they could go to their nearest red cross and donate blood, or make a donation to a local charity. In fact, here's a list of what people can do other than try and make their personal views known while riding on a wave of innocent blood:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/1 ... 02760.html

Or they can take all that energy, those thought processes, and maybe write an email expressing their heartfelt condolences to the families affected, let them know that they're not alone and Sandy Hook isn't some island in the wake of this tragedy. All are more productive and far more helpful than ballyhooing about who's right and who isn't at the moment.

Uh, yes, we do. And we should. On the day a bridge falls down, we start talking about why it happened and how to prevent it in the future.

If I die in some horrific way some day and I'm on the news, your tears won't help me or my family, because we don't know you. But I would love to believe that if my death was preventable, that as a result of my death, future deaths would be prevented. That would be an excellent tribute to me. And I'd be very grateful if you'd do me the honor of not patronizing my death.

Not to mention, it feels like you are debating about a general problem that might lead to some good and not a specific, heartbreaking one.

[Torisakia]

So with this shooting, does anyone else think that homeschooling would be a better approach to education?

[Occupied Deutschland]

Theres also links to federal sources. And yes, actual law-abiding gun owners. If you do not own a firearm and have never even attempted to buy a firearm, let alone even fire one and you deny sources written by people that has more experience with firearms, then yes it is not as biased as some mainstream media sources....especially freaking Washington Post. The media in general is the worst place to get information about gun laws and gun crime.

Because the media doesn't confirm a pro-gun hypothesis, I'd bet.

More because the media has a bad habit of jumping to conclusions and using improper terminology when it comes to guns and crime.

[Neutraligon]

So other than tightening/loosening gun control, what do you think can be doe to stop incidents like this?

Also, NIS you made me cry,again.

Another Messed up incident but it shouldn't be fuel for Anti gun policies.

Perhaps tighter regulation to access to them but that would be as far as i would be willing to go.

Said the samething about Columbine; Ironically i was within Colorado at a gunshow that very day in 99.

Oh for crying out loud, can there be ONE day, ONE DAMN DAY, between a tragedy and the inevitable bullshit politicising? How about stepping back and thinking "You know what, there are people out there in a lot of pain because of this, maybe my energy would be best put to work helping them in some fashion rather than debating what this means to my own personal views."

Is that too much to ask, that maybe we all take care of our extended American, or better yet HUMAN family first who need somebody to lean on and shoulder to cry into, or does every fucking thing no matter how heinous or awful have to become some sort of springboard for somebody to dive off of and into the swirling shitty miasma of "I'm right and this proves it"?

I fail to see how I made a political statement considering I specifically excluded the most controversial response to how do we prevent this from happening again. Seems to me the best time do deal with the issue is when everyone remembers it. So again excluding gun control specifically, how do we make sure this does not happen again so that parents don't have to bury their kids after a bastard shot them up?

[Chernoslavia]

why the hell would anyone rely on a wikipedia source about an incident that just happened and is still being looked into?

Wikipedia has citations, genius.

Thats still being updated, einstein.

[Gun Manufacturers]

Nope

Why not? Don't need thirty bullets in a mag to hunt or defend your family in your own home, I would think.
Unless "spray-and-pray" is the mantra.

Or you're shooting prairie dogs at their warrens, or target shooting.

[Frisivisia]

Because the media doesn't confirm a pro-gun hypothesis, I'd bet.

More because the media has a bad habit of jumping to conclusions and using improper terminology when it comes to guns and crime.

Therefore, bias, therefore, you're right. Cool shit, bro.

[The Joseon Dynasty]

Since you asked (rhetorically), I'd say to wait a day out of respect for the dead. It's not like this will be forgotten tomorrow.

Ah, but it is. It always is. We have a very short memory. The shock and outrage passes and we go back to complaining about gas prices and whether or not some General is cheating on his wife. There will never be more people focused on this problem than immediately after a tragedy of this magnitude. It would not be good to use this tragedy to implement bad solutions, but definitely finding good solutions is the absolute best thing we can do at the moment.

Tragedy tends to fray political opinion out to the extremes, and by the time we become clear-headed again, no one cares anymore.

[Gun Manufacturers]

You know what I'm tired of? The pro-gun "car" metaphor. We get it, people die from car-related injuries, and we don't ban cars. But, unlike guns, cars aren't made to kill things. They're made to transport people quickly and deaths do, unfortunately, result from this. The positives outweigh the negatives for cars.

For guns, though, there is no equal defense. A gun is never a tool of "self-defense," because its only purpose is to kill things. You don't fix things with guns, you don't heal things with guns, you don't go anywhere with guns. Guns only cause death. That is what they are designed to do. Quit acting like it has some greater purpose outside of that; quit pretending that God wanted you to own a semi-automatic tool used only to maim and kill other living things. This school shooting is tragic, yes, but it's a by-product of our gun culture. Much like the shooting in Florida from a few weeks ago. Much like the multiple shootings in the summer. In fact, much like the number of gun homicides that occur in our country every day.

You know what else causes only death? Cigarettes. Ban those first, they kill tens of thousands more people a year than firearms.

[Yes Im Biop]

I'm picturing the parents.

On christmas' eve.

Staring at the tree.

Staring at the gift-wrapped presents under it.

Unopened.

Forever.

As much of a bastard as i feel for saying it, That's one of the first images that came to my mind.

[Frisivisia]

So with this shooting, does anyone else think that homeschooling would be a better approach to education?

Nope. Homeschooling usually results in emotionally and socially unready children, and usually involves quite a bit of indoctrination on religion and politics. There's no room for the kid to think, just parent's mind to child's.

[Desperate Measures]

So with this shooting, does anyone else think that homeschooling would be a better approach to education?

I think that would lead to a very uneducated population. There are few families that can manage the basic necessities, let alone having a full time stay at home parent teaching their kids everything.