School Shooting in Connecticut - Multiple Fatalities

[Lunatic Goofballs]

^this. I consider myself a Libertarian, but people need to start treading medicine the same way they treat crime and fire prevention. It shouldn't be a for profit industry.

Then you aren't a Libertarian. Libertarianism defines the ideal State as the "night-watchman" State: it defends the nation from external attack and safeguards property & contract rights.....and does nothing more.

Ideally. But like moth things in life, Politics is a spectrum and I fall comfortably into the Libertarian end of it.

[AiliailiA]

Right, and yet it still isn't as easy to proliferate or conceal as drugs are, so again the equivelency is false at best. And even if prices on gunpowder and plumbing came down miraculously, those weapons would still be just as dangerous to the owner as they would to anyone at which they were pointed at.

Plus, I did take Industrial Arts back in junior high, and the last time I checked, milling out gas tubes and receivers weren't part of the curriculum. It takes a helluva lot more engineering and metalworking prowess, plus the use of something like a mill and a bandsaw with a metal blade to create a firearm that's even semi-reliable, even close to repeating in nature, and won't explode in the shooter's hand. And I'm prety sure that most back-alley sellers, "private" gun show sellers, or your average maniac doesn't have the talent or the patience to craft such a weapon either.

You are way overcomplicating it. Gunpowder? We aren't talking about manufacturing bullets here. COncealability? What does that have to do with anything. QUality? Now we're just taking body count. We are comparing the effectiveness of trying to ban guns with the effectiveness of trying to ban drugs. Nothing more.

Guns and drugs are significantly different.

If guns were only used for suicide they might be comparable.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

As someone pointed out a few pages ago, there are countries with more guns per capita that don't even have a fraction of our violent crime rate. We still aren't addressing the problem. Even if you could somehow keep a gun out of the hands of a homicidal maniac(a tall order to be sure), you still have a homicidal maniac. At best, all you are reducing is the body count. At best.

Some crimes will always happen. Some won't. Most criminals, to my mind are opportunists, not criminals by trade. I may be wrong about that. However, what do you say now given the gun per capita thing here is wrong?

I still don't think banning guns will reduce the incidence of homicidal psychopaths.

[Kintuckistan]

Criminalizing a material object creates a black market for those who want said material object.

The Russian Mafiya is drooling over the profits to be made from the pending gun control.

[Chronic Hypersomnia]

Apparently a few of you creeps dont have Children. This was not just another shooting. Twenty children (CHILDREN!) were shot down by some crazy Idiot. I am a Father of three that fall into the age catagory of the victoms. Killing deserving adults is one thing killing children is an act of pure hatred for the entire country. This guy was a Fuckin baby killer.

"Hating the country" has nothing to do with any of this. He didn't kill babies, he killed gradeschoolers, don't sensationalize it with hysteria.

That deserves serious consideration. I'll need a bigger house, I'll need a van, and I'll need some private tutors and such (I suck at languages, and any kid of mine WILL grow up bilingual at least). I'll need access to Child Protection records to target the children whose current parents are so bad that I couldn't possibly be worse. I probably can't secure any of those things.

But it deserves serious consideration

Reminds me of Skyrim: Hearthfire.

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I myself believe the arming and disarming of folks has little weight on rather or not a mass murder will be carried out to whatever degree. To me, that whole gun-shitfest is just a political game that really has very little place in this kind of situation. Responsible people will be responsible, ill people will be ill. If they're violently ill, they'll just use different tools for the job. I'd much prefer to understand the pathology of why someone snapped in the first place and how to have others whom suffer from similar inclinations/thoughts to seek help in a safe environment. Whatever is troubling the person can hopefully be mended via psychotherapy/medication so they're not dangerous anymore (for the most part). Sure, some are violent sadists who will resist and will need an intervention. Some need to be institutionalized. Sure, that's a given. However, mass murdering 20 children and 7 adults doesn't remove the fact that someone was/is human before and after the incident. Thinking of someone as inhuman only snowballs the problem, because when people start thinking someone isn't human, they wont want to have an understanding. As a result, other ill persons wont get what they need.

Also bonobos.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

You are way overcomplicating it. Gunpowder? We aren't talking about manufacturing bullets here. COncealability? What does that have to do with anything. QUality? Now we're just taking body count. We are comparing the effectiveness of trying to ban guns with the effectiveness of trying to ban drugs. Nothing more.

Guns and drugs are significantly different.

If guns were only used for suicide they might be comparable.

Ever heard of the Tokyo sarin gas attack?

[Forsher]

Some crimes will always happen. Some won't. Most criminals, to my mind are opportunists, not criminals by trade. I may be wrong about that. However, what do you say now given the gun per capita thing here is wrong?

I still don't think banning guns will reduce the incidence of homicidal psychopaths.

Not banning, restricting. Would probably reduce the number of incidents or perhaps just the damage done (homicidal psychopaths don't exist because of guns in most cases). Either way it's an improvement. Especially given the reasonably likely decrease in violent crime.

[Divair]

I still don't think banning guns will reduce the incidence of homicidal psychopaths.

Not banning, restricting. Would probably reduce the number of incidents or perhaps just the damage done (homicidal psychopaths don't exist because of guns in most cases). Either way it's an improvement. Especially given the reasonably likely decrease in violent crime.

Regulation of guns + universal healthcare to cover mental healthcare would significantly reduce incidents like these.

[NewBriton]

Reducing the bodycount is a good thing. When did money become more important than lives?

The more guns there are floating around, wherever they come from, the more chance there is of people getting shot. People may still be shot sometimes, but the less it happens, the better. Yes, mental health and depictions of violence in video games etc. are an issue, but they are not the only part of the issue. Not everyone plans to murder in advance. Some people in a fit of anger or grief will reach for whatever is available and use it without thinking. The harder it is to get hold of a gun, the less likely that somebody like that will just be able to grab one and start shooting. They'd have to go through the process of finding out how to get one, getting the money together for it, locating a seller, contacting them and finally buying it. By then some of them will have calmed down. The length of that procedure and the risk of getting caught will put others off. The threat of punishment isn't going to stop everybody, but it will stop some. And stopping some will save lives.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

It doesn't solve the problem. Why rip the COnstitution to shreds, put tens of thousands of people out of work and collapse an entire industry for a measure that doesn't address the problem.

You think more guns are a solution? What makes a 300 year old document correct and valid for a present day scenario? How much actual weapon production is done in the US? Surely the skills in say, metallurgy, or engineering, could be applicable to other areas than firearms? How big is the domestic market? Would it actually collapse an entire industry? Isn't it more likely that weapons contracts to armies provide the bulk of their profit? Are all your arguments this weak?

Where did I say more guns are the solution? Where? I said better mental health care is the solution. Jesus christ. Just because I dont think banning guns is the solution doesn't mean I think the opposite is. You're being ridiculous.

And yes. I think the Constitution including the Second Amendment is just as valid today as it was 230 years ago. Even more so as this country has progressed more and more toward the ideal it represents.

[Divair]

depictions of violence in video games

No. Stop. I have an issue with anyone blaming video games. Violence does not stem from video games, using video games to pursue violence only highlights an underlying significant issue.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I still don't think banning guns will reduce the incidence of homicidal psychopaths.

Not banning, restricting. Would probably reduce the number of incidents or perhaps just the damage done (homicidal psychopaths don't exist because of guns in most cases). Either way it's an improvement. Especially given the reasonably likely decrease in violent crime.

It seems more efficient to me to identify and treat mental illness and prevent as many of these incidents as possible.

[AiliailiA]

Apparently a few of you creeps dont have Children. This was not just another shooting. Twenty children (CHILDREN!) were shot down by some crazy Idiot. I am a Father of three that fall into the age catagory of the victoms. Killing deserving adults is one thing killing children is an act of pure hatred for the entire country. This guy was a Fuckin baby killer.

"Hating the country" has nothing to do with any of this. He didn't kill babies, he killed gradeschoolers, don't sensationalize it with hysteria.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Didn't in fact.

That deserves serious consideration. I'll need a bigger house, I'll need a van, and I'll need some private tutors and such (I suck at languages, and any kid of mine WILL grow up bilingual at least). I'll need access to Child Protection records to target the children whose current parents are so bad that I couldn't possibly be worse. I probably can't secure any of those things.

But it deserves serious consideration

Reminds me of Skyrim: Hearthfire.

Think of the children.

But when I start making plans for an underground bunker "for the children" it's maybe time for me to think about something else.

Yes I missed your reference, and no don't clue me up with a youtube link. Text or nothing.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

depictions of violence in video games

No. Stop. I have an issue with anyone blaming video games. Violence does not stem from video games, using video games to pursue violence only highlights an underlying significant issue.

Oh, irony. Video games aren't the cause. But guns are?

[NewBriton]

I'm not blaming video games. But things like that do give people ideas, especially if they're already unstable. More than one thing needs fixing to stop incidents like these from happening. That's just one of the things that needs consideration.

[Divair]

No. Stop. I have an issue with anyone blaming video games. Violence does not stem from video games, using video games to pursue violence only highlights an underlying significant issue.

Oh, irony. Video games aren't the cause. But guns are?

Where did I blame guns for this?

[AiliailiA]

depictions of violence in video games

No. Stop. I have an issue with anyone blaming video games. Violence does not stem from video games, using video games to pursue violence only highlights an underlying significant issue.

There's a lot more in that post than what you take umbrage at. Cut the new poster some slack huh?

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Indeed...and a flintlock is unlike to kill as many people as a semi auto pistol...and a home made semi auto pistol has a higher chance of misfire than one made by a pro...which means that regulating these weapons is not as pointless as you make it seem.

It doesn't identify and treat psychopaths. It doesn't even stop them from getting a gun and killing people. At BEST, it stops them from killing as many people. Maybe. In the eighties, some japanese dude killed 30 people with a sword. I don't even think it was at an elementary school.

Holy cow! You obviously missed the part where I said both are intertwined.

It (whatever it is but I will assume gun control laws) can however. If you want to own a gun you undertake a psychiatric evaluation.

I suspect that you, like many ill informed knee jerkers think that people like me want all guns banned. That is not the case but hey...keep jerking that knee LG! (that even rhymes! how cool is that?! )

[Lunatic Goofballs]

I'm not blaming video games. But things like that do give people ideas. More than one thing needs fixing to stop incidents like these from happening.

Obsessive tendencies find an obsession to latch on to. Blaming the source of the obsession is as ridiculous as blaming the tool it's acted out with. A few days ago, a man obsessed with Justin Bieber tried to arrange to have him castrated and murdered for failing to answer his fan letters. As much as i'd like to blame Justin Bieber, I can't. Any more than I can blame the hedge clippers they were planning to castrate him with.

[Forsher]

Not banning, restricting. Would probably reduce the number of incidents or perhaps just the damage done (homicidal psychopaths don't exist because of guns in most cases). Either way it's an improvement. Especially given the reasonably likely decrease in violent crime.

It seems more efficient to me to identify and treat mental illness and prevent as many of these incidents as possible.

Do both. Mental health deals with mental health. Restricting guns deals with different issues.

[Pawn and King]

You think more guns are a solution? What makes a 300 year old document correct and valid for a present day scenario? How much actual weapon production is done in the US? Surely the skills in say, metallurgy, or engineering, could be applicable to other areas than firearms? How big is the domestic market? Would it actually collapse an entire industry? Isn't it more likely that weapons contracts to armies provide the bulk of their profit? Are all your arguments this weak?

Where did I say more guns are the solution? Where? I said better mental health care is the solution. Jesus christ. Just because I dont think banning guns is the solution doesn't mean I think the opposite is. You're being ridiculous.

And yes. I think the Constitution including the Second Amendment is just as valid today as it was 230 years ago. Even more so as this country has progressed more and more toward the ideal it represents.

Then what do you think is the massive difference between countries such as the USA, compared to Finland/Switzerland? Also, why on earth do you think the Second Amendment is valid, when it's main cause is to oust dictators, repelling invasions? There's a judiciary to oust dictators, a military to repel invasion, a police service to protect property and life, and jails to deter.

[Rubiconic Crossings V2 rev 1f]

Guns and drugs are significantly different.

If guns were only used for suicide they might be comparable.

Ever heard of the Tokyo sarin gas attack?

A cult with a large number of people and a lone gun man. Yeah I can see the connection all right.

[Lunatic Goofballs]

It doesn't identify and treat psychopaths. It doesn't even stop them from getting a gun and killing people. At BEST, it stops them from killing as many people. Maybe. In the eighties, some japanese dude killed 30 people with a sword. I don't even think it was at an elementary school.

Holy cow! You obviously missed the part where I said both are intertwined.

It (whatever it is but I will assume gun control laws) can however. If you want to own a gun you undertake a psychiatric evaluation.

I suspect that you, like many ill informed knee jerkers think that people like me want all guns banned. That is not the case but hey...keep jerking that knee LG! (that even rhymes! how cool is that?! )

Why are they both intertwined? Instead of tying psychiatric evaluations to guns, why not make mental health evaluations part of annual physicals? Then everybody gets them.

[AiliailiA]

I'm not blaming video games. But things like that do give people ideas, especially if they're already unstable. More than one thing needs fixing to stop incidents like these from happening. That's just one of the things that needs consideration.

Keeping people (including young people or children) from having ideas is not a good way to prevent them doing x or y.

Letting them act out fantasies in a game environment, knowing it's a game might actually help.

[Ifreann]

Perhaps gun control needs to be more than regulating the sale and purchase of guns. Perhaps there needs to be more laws, or better laws, about how one must keep one's guns when not in use.

Nah, we probably just need more guns.

How would you enforce such laws ?
Random police checks in your home ?
Fining people after incidents like this ?

I do not think ownership of a gun should subject one to such an invasion of privacy and fines after a tragedy happened do little to prevent them.

I don't know if random checks would be viable, and negligence leading to deaths sounds like something warranting jail time, not fines.

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You're welcome to start threads on those things. This one is about guns.

Technically its about the massacre, but yeah I guess thats already been thrown out the window.

A massacre carried out with guns, not planes or sugar.

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Guess what I live in the real world too. A real world where 30+ people a day don't die from gun violence. A real world where 40% of guns aren't bought without a background check. Where a gun mania culture is so persuasive that your solution is to arm teachers in a class room. Or shock, schools are gun free zones!!! The US is saturated with weapons and these tragedies will continue to occur until people decide that their attitude to their gun fetish needs to change.

You obviously haven't heard about the gun control in chicago and their lovely little crime riddled city. or england and their gangs. lol.

What England is this you're talking about? Because it can't be the one in Europe, with the Queen and the tea and the Olympics. They don't really have a problem with gangs. Do you mean New England, maybe?

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^this. I consider myself a Libertarian, but people need to start treading medicine the same way they treat crime and fire prevention. It shouldn't be a for profit industry.

It's pretty fucking depressing that we've all resigned ourselves to the idea that we can only have one little advance at a time. We have to scrabble for every tiny gain, so the idea that we could demand improved gun control measures AND a discussion on the culture that gives rise to this kind of rampage AND decent modern-era health care isn't even on the radar.

Do more than one thing per news cycle? Madness. The US isn't a nation of unnatural multi-tasking women.