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School Shooting in Connecticut - Multiple Fatalities

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The Zeonic States
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Postby The Zeonic States » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:54 pm

Wisconsin9 wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:he shouldn't be mocked by some Journalist

The First Amendment called; it would like a word with you.


:eyebrow: In the fashion he was mocked i suppose i should have clarified that bit.

As in with PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:55 pm

The Zeonic States wrote:
Wisconsin9 wrote:The First Amendment called; it would like a word with you.


:eyebrow: In the fashion he was mocked i suppose i should have clarified that bit.

As in with PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

What part of "sentenced to three years, did nine months" did you have trouble with?
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:55 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:
:eyebrow: In the fashion he was mocked i suppose i should have clarified that bit.

As in with PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

What part of "sentenced to three years, did nine months" did you have trouble with?


Mix in a little torture as well.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
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Postby Occupied Deutschland » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:56 pm

Miss Defied wrote:
Norjagen wrote:Yes, you do. And there is training involved in receiving said permit, in almost every state.

Got a source for that? I don't understand this to be the case at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_ ... quirements
Georgia, Washington and Pennsylvania don't have any training requirements and Mississippi has a restricted permit for one who doesn't go through with training requirements.
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The Zeonic States
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Postby The Zeonic States » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:56 pm

The Joseon Dynasty wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:
:lol: So i throw a Boot at some one else and get locked up for assault but it's not right if this fellow does?

Honestly he was charged with assault; I am just saying that well if in the inital act security drew their firearms and killed him?

I wouldn't shed a tear.

I don't have any love for that president but he shouldn't be mocked by some Journalist little lone assaulted by one.

After the fact executing him? Might have been a tad bit extreme but some say he got tortured for once i hope that was true.


Are you bonkers or something?


No; Just not a fan of Political Malcontents or Terrorists and Folks like him who use violence to get famous are Dangerously close in my eyes to being terrorists.

I think security would have been well within their rights to shoot the man dead after assaulting a head of state; the fact he got less then a Year in prision for the incident is troubling to say the least.

Eh it's just like the Liberty really; The handling of the situation pisses me off more then the actual situation if that makes sense.
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Norjagen
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Postby Norjagen » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:57 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
Norjagen wrote:Not the majority, for sure. The same sort of people who will lock the children under their care in a closet, and give their life to misdirect said shooter, like one of the teachers in Connecticut. Believe it or not, there are people who ask those questions every single day; "Do I really have what it takes to carry? Do I have the mindset and the confidence to make that sort of judgement call?"

Every bullet that leaves a gun in those situations has a lawyer attached to it, and the potential to do unnecessary harm. The man who drew down on the Oregon shooter didn't take the shot, because there were people moving in the background that he may have hit, had he fired. He showed remarkable judgement, and didn't take actions that would have constituted an unnecessary risk to innocents. Even though he wasn't able to drop the assailant, his reasons for not doing so were responsible ones, and he made the right choice. (It's also been stated that the shooter offed himself when he saw the CCW holder draw on him, but that's only hearsay)

Cases like that are why I don't get the "Firing wildly, bullets going everywhere" argument against concealed carriers. We're talking about people who are placing their entire future potentially in the hands of lawyers and courts, even if they're justified in pulling the trigger. There's a lot of self-scrutiny involved, and lots of judgement calls, of the same sorts LEOs encounter every day. They're among the most cautious and responsible gun owners you're likely to ever meet, and they take their choice very seriously.


I will still say most will fail in the moment. Hesitation and end up being the first shot.

Difference being concealed gun owners still see people. The pig who did this; didn't see people.

Most have to be trained for this. Hell I remember in my martial arts training, I actually hesitated the first time I was told to do round kick drills on one of the targets with a face. I have spared in tournaments and yet I hesitated? Probably because the face was exposed? A couple seconds later I thought this was dumb and started kicking.

People think and talk about actions. How often does it play out when the moment arises?

IConcealed weapons would not have prevented this. It's one thing to crank rounds off at target in a range and another to shoot at somebody shooting at you.

This is very much true, and it's why people who are serious about carrying, truly serious, should spend the time and money to get practical, real-world training and maintain that training. You're right; it's very different in the real world than it is on the square range. Just like martial arts, defending yourself with a gun requires drills, practice, and more drills, and more practice, until getting that gun out of the holster and onto the threat becomes second nature. Keepig your head up and being aware of your surroundings also goes a long way in avoiding situations before they become dangerous. The mindset that comes with the territory? It can't be taught. Either you can commit to that sort of responsibility, recognize what you're about to do, and do it, knowing that the consequences to yourself could be dire, or you can't. Some people just don't have the "fighting gene" that makes them capable of doing what it takes to make it out of one of these shootings alive, or putting an end to it. Equipment, Training, Awareness, Mindset. ..And pray to god you're not the first target. That's all you can really do.
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The Zeonic States
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Postby The Zeonic States » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:58 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:
:eyebrow: In the fashion he was mocked i suppose i should have clarified that bit.

As in with PHYSICAL VIOLENCE.

What part of "sentenced to three years, did nine months" did you have trouble with?


In that he served less then half the time he was sentenced to?

Honestly i would probably get a harsher sentence if i tossed a shoe at the president assuming i wasn't shot dead.

The Black Forrest wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:What part of "sentenced to three years, did nine months" did you have trouble with?


Mix in a little torture as well.


:lol2: Very minor torture honestly his injuries may show a tiny bit but hardly the meat grinder some places would give him.
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Tubbsalot
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Postby Tubbsalot » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:58 pm

The Zeonic States wrote:Terrorists

This just in: throwing shoes is terrorism.

The US is currently considering military action to neutralise that notorious den of terrorists, kindergarten.
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The Zeonic States
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Postby The Zeonic States » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:58 pm

Tubbsalot wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:Terrorists

This just in: throwing shoes is terrorism.

The US is currently considering military action to neutralise that notorious den of terrorists, kindergarten.


:eyebrow: Expressing political opinion and belief through violence may be construed as terrorism.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:00 pm

The Zeonic States wrote:
The Joseon Dynasty wrote:
Are you bonkers or something?


No; Just not a fan of Political Malcontents or Terrorists and Folks like him who use violence to get famous are Dangerously close in my eyes to being terrorists.

I think security would have been well within their rights to shoot the man dead after assaulting a head of state; the fact he got less then a Year in prision for the incident is troubling to say the least.

Eh it's just like the Liberty really; The handling of the situation pisses me off more then the actual situation if that makes sense.


I would fear for LG with your view of the universe.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Norjagen
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Postby Norjagen » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:00 pm

Occupied Deutschland wrote:
Miss Defied wrote:Got a source for that? I don't understand this to be the case at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_ ... quirements
Georgia, Washington and Pennsylvania don't have any training requirements and Mississippi has a restricted permit for one who doesn't go through with training requirements.

May have admittedly gone overboard with that. I'm a Florida resident, and that's where most of my experience lies.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firear ... ation.html
Florida law requires you to submit proof of competency with a firearm in order to qualify for a concealed weapon license. A copy of a CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION or similar document from any of the following courses or classes is acceptable:

any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency in another state;

any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

any firearm safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;

any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified instructor or by an instructor certified by the National Rifle Association.

it's no substitute for real-world self defense training, and I encourage any carrier to take their training further, but it does at least require applicants to demonstrate proficiency and safe handling on the "bullets come out of the pointy end" level.
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Thatius
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Postby Thatius » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:01 pm

Seeing the pictures of the kids who died in this shooting tears my heart into pieces. I'm never an emotional guy, but this just really hurts. These were 6 and 7 year olds- babies! My heart, like most others, goes out to the victims and their families. Incredible outreach by everyone across the world...saw the Emilie Parker Fund already has 175,000 'likes' on FaceBook...people supporting getting her back to Utah to be buried.

Just scary how guns have had an impact on our lives. I know a kid brought several rifles to our high school one year and was shortly arrested after they found them in his car. Don't want to be political, so I'll stop here. I hope things will soon change in this country.

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Miss Defied
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Postby Miss Defied » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:01 pm

Occupied Deutschland wrote:
Miss Defied wrote:Got a source for that? I don't understand this to be the case at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_ ... quirements
Georgia, Washington and Pennsylvania don't have any training requirements and Mississippi has a restricted permit for one who doesn't go through with training requirements.

Thanks. Though that source doesn't seem to support the statement that "almost every state" requires training. In fact quite the contrary, it simply says that some states require training. The ones listed were a few examples but not representative of the only states that do not require training.
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Tubbsalot
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Postby Tubbsalot » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:02 pm

The Zeonic States wrote: :eyebrow: Expressing political opinion and belief through violence may be construed as terrorism.

Yeah, as long as we could possibly manage to interpret it as violence, it's filthy terrorism. Patting someone on the head: TERRORISM. High-fives: TERRORISM.
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The Black Forrest
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:02 pm

Tubbsalot wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:Terrorists

This just in: throwing shoes is terrorism.

The US is currently considering military action to neutralise that notorious den of terrorists, kindergarten.


From a distance no less. I guess that justifies drone strikes.
*I am a master proofreader after I click Submit.
* There is actually a War on Christmas. But Christmas started it, with it's unparalleled aggression against the Thanksgiving Holiday, and now Christmas has seized much Lebensraum in November, and are pushing into October. The rest of us seek to repel these invaders, and push them back to the status quo ante bellum Black Friday border. -Trotskylvania
* Silence Is Golden But Duct Tape Is Silver.
* I felt like Ayn Rand cornered me at a party, and three minutes in I found my first objection to what she was saying, but she kept talking without interruption for ten more days. - Max Barry talking about Atlas Shrugged

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Miss Defied
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Postby Miss Defied » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:03 pm

Norjagen wrote:
Occupied Deutschland wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_ ... quirements
Georgia, Washington and Pennsylvania don't have any training requirements and Mississippi has a restricted permit for one who doesn't go through with training requirements.

May have admittedly gone overboard with that. I'm a Florida resident, and that's where most of my experience lies.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firear ... ation.html
Florida law requires you to submit proof of competency with a firearm in order to qualify for a concealed weapon license. A copy of a CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION or similar document from any of the following courses or classes is acceptable:

any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency in another state;

any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

any firearm safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;

any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified instructor or by an instructor certified by the National Rifle Association.

it's no substitute for real-world self defense training, and I encourage any carrier to take their training further, but it does at least require applicants to demonstrate proficiency and safe handling on the "bullets come out of the pointy end" level.

See and I thought FL was one of the states that let you just carry without restriction.
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Imperial--japan
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Postby Imperial--japan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:05 pm

This is a horrible tragedy, and with Christmas around the corner I wish the families of the victims best of luck and my condolences.
Last edited by Imperial--japan on Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pavlostani » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:05 pm

North Calaveras wrote:
Tubbsalot wrote:And you're arguing that those shootings are caused by TV and games, rather than - just as an example - guns.


Prove that guns are the reason behind the killings please cause as far as I can tell a homicidal person was behind the killings not an inanimate object.

Murders are not caused by guns, murders are caused by someone who wants to kill another person.

I think the gun sure helps. Besides, I've always thought that if somebody has a weapon, they will start to look for an excuse to use it. And if the man didn't have a gun, how would he have killed? A knife doesn't have good enough range. Guns are instruments of death.
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The Zeonic States
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Postby The Zeonic States » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:07 pm

Tubbsalot wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote: :eyebrow: Expressing political opinion and belief through violence may be construed as terrorism.

Yeah, as long as we could possibly manage to interpret it as violence, it's filthy terrorism. Patting someone on the head: TERRORISM. High-fives: TERRORISM.


The Judge managed to Interpret it as violence :P

Same for the Jury.

Thats why he did his joke of a sentence.
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Postby Forsher » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:07 pm

Norjagen wrote:
Forsher wrote:
Again, assumes that the shooter is visible. Also, that the potential hero doesn't get shot as just another member of the panicking crowd. You see, having your own gun when visible make you a target. If the gun isn't visible and you are it's no good to you. And if neither of you are visible to the baddie then that just makes my point.


Not the point I was making. Nothing will stop him from randomly selecting you from the crowd of people he's targeting. That's bad luck.

Carrying openly will make him target you first, for sure, making it a bad choice.

Carrying concealed will, at worst, make you the target of a random shot, as opposed to his main threat and priority.

That's certainly preferable to not carrying at all. You do what you have to do to survive. Cower, draw, and wait for an opening if you have to. Or, if you have a clean shot at the outset, draw and take it before he beads in on you. I'm not saying it will completely safeguard your life, but with so many random variables already stacked against you, there's no reason to find yourself in such a situation at the willful disadvantage of being unarmed.


I'm really not seeing any particular validity to the argument that having guns in such a situation is a good idea.

When an assailant has a specific target, not doing anything if one isn't that target is a very good course of action. If it is just a massive rampage than one is a target anyway, having the gun if it is visible makes one a definite target. If it isn't than one must be confident in one's own ability to shoot with it for it to be any use.

As I said, if nether the gun nor the self can be seen by the baddie then that is my point. A gun is no protection from an invisible assailant.

If the baddie has a concealed weapon than, well, it is a concealed weapon and so, we don't know it is there.

As Dyakovo and others repeatedly told me in another thread while misuderstanding what I am saying, shooting a gun is not as easy as it is in the movies to hit your target.
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Norjagen
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Postby Norjagen » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:07 pm

Miss Defied wrote:
Norjagen wrote:May have admittedly gone overboard with that. I'm a Florida resident, and that's where most of my experience lies.
http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/firear ... ation.html
Florida law requires you to submit proof of competency with a firearm in order to qualify for a concealed weapon license. A copy of a CERTIFICATE OF COMPLETION or similar document from any of the following courses or classes is acceptable:

any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission or a similar agency in another state;

any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;

any firearm safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school, utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association, the Criminal Justice Standards and Training Commission, or the Department of Agriculture and Consumer Services;

any law enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;

any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified instructor or by an instructor certified by the National Rifle Association.

it's no substitute for real-world self defense training, and I encourage any carrier to take their training further, but it does at least require applicants to demonstrate proficiency and safe handling on the "bullets come out of the pointy end" level.

See and I thought FL was one of the states that let you just carry without restriction.

Nope. Florida is, however, a "shall issue" state, which means that if an applicant meets the legal requirements, the state SHALL issue them a permit. This is opposed to say, Hawaii, which is a MAY issue state, where local bureaucrats pick and choose applicants on a somewhat subjective basis.

It's worth noting that 35 states recognize the Florida license, but that says nothing about their own permitting practices for residents, in which I admittedly have no experience.
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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:08 pm

The Zeonic States wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:What part of "sentenced to three years, did nine months" did you have trouble with?


In that he served less then half the time he was sentenced to?

Honestly i would probably get a harsher sentence if i tossed a shoe at the president assuming i wasn't shot dead.

The Black Forrest wrote:
Mix in a little torture as well.


:lol2: Very minor torture honestly his injuries may show a tiny bit but hardly the meat grinder some places would give him.
Under 18 USC 1751, Presidential and Presidential staff assassination, kidnapping, and assault, up to ten years. "Whoever assaults any person designated in subsection (a)(1) shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both. Whoever assaults any person designated in subsection (a)(2) shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than one year, or both; and if the assault involved the use of a dangerous weapon, or personal injury results, shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both."

Note, "up to" in the text. Anyway, he was tried under Iraqi law.
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:09 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:
No; Just not a fan of Political Malcontents or Terrorists and Folks like him who use violence to get famous are Dangerously close in my eyes to being terrorists.

I think security would have been well within their rights to shoot the man dead after assaulting a head of state; the fact he got less then a Year in prision for the incident is troubling to say the least.

Eh it's just like the Liberty really; The handling of the situation pisses me off more then the actual situation if that makes sense.


I would fear for LG with your view of the universe.


The shoe is the pie of the Middle East. The poor bastards. :(
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The Zeonic States
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Postby The Zeonic States » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:10 pm

The Black Forrest wrote:
The Zeonic States wrote:
No; Just not a fan of Political Malcontents or Terrorists and Folks like him who use violence to get famous are Dangerously close in my eyes to being terrorists.

I think security would have been well within their rights to shoot the man dead after assaulting a head of state; the fact he got less then a Year in prision for the incident is troubling to say the least.

Eh it's just like the Liberty really; The handling of the situation pisses me off more then the actual situation if that makes sense.


I would fear for LG with your view of the universe.


LG?
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Norjagen
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Postby Norjagen » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:10 pm

Forsher wrote:
Norjagen wrote:
Not the point I was making. Nothing will stop him from randomly selecting you from the crowd of people he's targeting. That's bad luck.

Carrying openly will make him target you first, for sure, making it a bad choice.

Carrying concealed will, at worst, make you the target of a random shot, as opposed to his main threat and priority.

That's certainly preferable to not carrying at all. You do what you have to do to survive. Cower, draw, and wait for an opening if you have to. Or, if you have a clean shot at the outset, draw and take it before he beads in on you. I'm not saying it will completely safeguard your life, but with so many random variables already stacked against you, there's no reason to find yourself in such a situation at the willful disadvantage of being unarmed.


I'm really not seeing any particular validity to the argument that having guns in such a situation is a good idea.

When an assailant has a specific target, not doing anything if one isn't that target is a very good course of action. If it is just a massive rampage than one is a target anyway, having the gun if it is visible makes one a definite target. If it isn't than one must be confident in one's own ability to shoot with it for it to be any use.

As I said, if nether the gun nor the self can be seen by the baddie then that is my point. A gun is no protection from an invisible assailant.

If the baddie has a concealed weapon than, well, it is a concealed weapon and so, we don't know it is there.

As Dyakovo and others repeatedly told me in another thread while misuderstanding what I am saying, shooting a gun is not as easy as it is in the movies to hit your target.

These incidents rarely occur only instantly. Once the assailant starts shooting, his gun is no longer concealed; it's out in the open and aiming at bystanders. If you find yourself in that worst case scenario, maybe, just maybe, you'll have time to turn, see him shooting at other people, draw, and fire. Of course, as soon as you draw, you ARE a target. You've committed to taking the shooter's life if he doesn't surrender, because he will surely take yours if you don't. That's still far more preferable to sitting, unarmed, with your hands behind your head, as he goes from person to person in the room and executes them one by one.
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:The shoe is the pie of the Middle East. The poor bastards. :(

Economic Left/Right: -0.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.33

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